Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread.
15,084 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Reimu;46208878]Well, after everything today, I'm going to stop posting about Zoe Quinn in here altogether & I'm going to be more openly critical of GG on twitter.
The problem I have though is that I don't know where else to go to talk about these things. Pretty much everywhere is an echo chamber now.
In all honesty, though, a lot of people join Steam groups and never interact with them at all. I use to have a bunch of /v/ groups in my profile all the way up to 2014. Some of them were really shitty places, but I just let them sit there and never interacted with them at all. Plus, that group is pretty big, and some people don't even look through a Steam group's profile before joining.[/QUOTE]
Just say whatever the fuck you think wherever the fuck you want.
If you want to be critical of GG on here then be critical of GG on here. If you want to talk about your issues with Zoe on twitter then talk about them on twitter.
If you're bothered that certain places are an echo chamber then why not add a dissenting opinion? Worst comes to worst you get a bunch of posts calling you stupid from people you've never met.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46208908]That was something I was thinking of as I posted, and I don't know how to help you there either. People only care about Zoe Quinn within the context of GG. I don't think you'll ever be able to disassociate yourself and her from GG.[/quote]
It's not easy. I see my article and video posted all the time with "#GamerGate" tagged. Don't get me wrong, I like my stuff being spread, but it's counter-productive when GG is doing it.
I still get a lot of tweets saying "Reimu is a feminist GGer" and I don't know how to handle it. Most of my GG followers are respectful that I want to break away from GG. I guess a good start is, when that happens, be clear with others that I'm not actually part of GG anymore. And being more vocal about leaving and critical of GG always helps add distance.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46208908]I wouldn't really put it past her to be actively participating with goon squad.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, but, in this case, it's better not to jump to conclusions.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46208950]Just say whatever the fuck you think wherever the fuck you want.
If you want to be critical of GG on here then be critical of GG on here. If you want to talk about your issues with Zoe on twitter then talk about them on twitter.
If you're bothered that certain places are an echo chamber then why not add a dissenting opinion? Worst comes to worst you get a bunch of posts calling you stupid from people you've never met.[/QUOTE]
The issue I keep having is that I don't want to startle a hornet's nest. One time, I was critical of GG for focusing too hard on DiGRA, and I ended up having an enormous argument with a bunch of GGers who wanted to pick apart everything I said.
It must've lasted an hour or two, just a constant line of tweets. Usually from one or two people too and with others flowing in and out of the conversation. I try to avoid that by taking the path of least resistance, but I also think it's kind of clear that I need to walk the walk about being critical/distancing myself if I want to talk it.
We're not a GG-HQ, no point pretending we matter. I'm for letting Reimu post anything here. We don't have a terrible lot of stuff to discuss at the moment anyway. May as well discuss anything relevant or close to relevant.
[QUOTE=gudman;46208995]We're not a GG-HQ, no point pretending we matter. I'm for letting Reimu post anything here. We don't have a terrible lot of stuff to discuss at the moment anyway. May as well discuss anything relevant or close to relevant.[/QUOTE]
Distance from the ZQ stuff is good though, because it will be hard to engage with others about this if it's always brought up in relation to GG.
And, like KillerJaguar said, this [i]is[/i] primarily intended to talk about the corruption issue. Jaguar is right - if you keep linking your arguments to a thread which is primarily discussing GG, it's hard to separate your work from it. And just saying "this work is not pro-GG!" is not a de facto solution, just a de jure one.
I'm kinda amazed no anti-GG whistleblower 'exposed' this thread yet
But there's not a lot of point separating these issues from one another in different threads. I think everyone in this thread is smart enough to know one from the other, and since you've got stuff to say on both, as well as many of us are interested in ZQ/abuse/whatever stuff.
I say we keep everything in here, it's fine.
Hm, what if we had an IRC instead for us to chat about things? We could make it overarching as well, so it's not just GG.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46208491]I can't understand why people like sigma lambda are intentionally being obtuse about everything related to this.
I don't care if someone doesn't agree with me, but for someone who protests abuse to think it's okay that people attack all gamers for things certain people said is just beyond me.[/QUOTE]
It's just highhorsing IMO, makes me wonder how insecure they really are
[QUOTE=Swilly;46208074]I actually know a number of people, including myself, who are extremely pissed off about the lack of content.
However, there's no real way to say it anywhere.[/QUOTE]
The Kickstarter comments should still be open, right?
As far as I know they also don't have to be approved before appearing.
If that's the case you can easily comment, archive it in case it's deleted, and then refer to your complaint elsewhere while complaining about it.
That way you have easily visible credentials supporting your opinion's importance (if you reuse user names at least). [I]Especially[/I] if it's deleted.
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;46208094]It has it's relevance as just another example of sheer hypocrisy of people who judge us. Apparently you can punch down all you want, just as long as you never punch inward.[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://archive.today/fSoQI"]She's aknowledging the harassment coming from A-#GG now btw.[/URL]
I think. The tweets are badly written so it's difficult to see what's actually going on.
[URL="https://archive.today/zDq7H"]Maybe I'm wrong.[/URL] I can't tell if she's being hypocritical in that last link again, her tweets are just too badly written for unambiguous interpretation.
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46208251][IMG]http://puu.sh/c8jxm/ae68e6a0fb.png[/IMG]
[url]https://storify.com/MorganRamsay/how-often-do-video-game-journalists-write-about-fe[/url]
link to said "study"
What kind of fucking study is that? its like, well gun violence in america is low because we also include Europe and Australia. Of course its going to look minuscule when you slam in other normal game sites who are not buddy buddy with the same agenda.[/QUOTE]
([URL="https://archive.today/N7Do1"]archive[/URL])
The problem isn't with the sample, which is clearly split into parts in the longer version of the study.
The algorithm that determines whether an article relates to gender issues casts a far too small net in this instance in my opinion, but that's addressed too and in fact doesn't seem to skew the results that much.
What I think is more concerning is the suggestion that the 1-2% percent some sites reach aren't a huge number, that's one in 100 articles, for one site even more than one in 50.
The study is completely meaningless without comparison data from other fields of journalism, and I have a hunch the percentage there may be an order of magnitude smaller.
It's also not good that the sample data isn't available, but I suppose that's a copyright issue that can't be helped.
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Denicide;46208761]Isn't the 'point' of GG that the feminist agenda is everywhere, though? The most valid frustrations are from people who believe they don't have a games media outlet that caters to their tastes, and now you seem to be extending this further.
If there are only a few sites publishing feminist critique then you're really shooting your own movement in the foot. I mean, you have no reason to visit those places and consequentially they don't harm you in any way.[/QUOTE]
It depends. If they generalise and paint all gamers in a bad light instead of giving constructive criticism then that problem comes to someone whether they read the site or not.
I wouldn't even mind them prioritising SJ games, if only they were honest about their reasons for doing so.
Being Critical of GG is a good thing we can stamp out the BS and trolls that way.Calling all gamers crying manbabys isnt criticism .
[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;46206788]She called them "hood men". Not explicitly referring to race in and of itself, but it's as implicitly racially-charged as "ghetto trash".[/QUOTE]
[url]http://theralphretort.com/racist-tweets-leigh-alexander-discovered/[/url]
"i got my ass kicked by a hood rat in 7th grade. she hit me in the face because i mouthed off to her. but i was proud of how mean i was"
Word per word from her twitter, god-awful grammar and all.
[QUOTE=Denicide;46208761]Isn't the 'point' of GG that the feminist agenda is everywhere, though? The most valid frustrations are from people who believe they don't have a games media outlet that caters to their tastes, and now you seem to be extending this further.
If there are only a few sites publishing feminist critique then you're really shooting your own movement in the foot. I mean, you have no reason to visit those places and consequentially they don't harm you in any way.[/QUOTE]
Problem is these gaming journalists have enormous power over the coverage that game developers receive and the success of those games. They've been colluding with certain 'developers' (if you can even call the people who make games in Twine or Unity in 6 hours developers) who are their friends and collegues while ignoring or not even mentioning actual game developers because they either don't like their political beliefs, because those developers don't give the games journalists special privileges like free ipods and hookers (I have to find the article that talks about this).
Here's a good blod post about it from a game dev: [url]http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/457741/GamerGatethe_free_ride_is_over[/url]
The reason people complain is stuff like this
[thumb]http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/6/63573/2467890-screen+shot+2013-04-10+at+1.17.00+pm.png[/thumb]
and this:
[thumb]http://depts.washington.edu/critgame/project/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/depression-quest.png[/thumb]
gets massive praise and attention while stuff like this:
[video=youtube;nyfmd9ZMyIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyfmd9ZMyIw[/video]
gets completely ignored and blacklisted from sites like gamasutra despite being a incredibly promising title because they don't like the developers.
All of these games are made by indie game devs with, funilly enough, just about the same budget entirely funded by kickstarter. And yet some of these people can simply degrade the gaming news scene so much that they can influence the market a lot more than any genuinely good game dev who doesn't wield stupid amounts of political and social power ever could.
It's fine and dandy for you to say to us to just stop reading these sites, but the reality is actual indie game devs who are only getting by by the skin of their teeth are being hamstrung by these gaming journalists because a lot of people happen to read them.
If you like or enjoy video games in any way, and want them to continue to be fun, artful and [b]good[/b] any time into the future, then you must support GamerGate and denounce corrupt journalistic practices designed to sell shitty games for massive profit through false advertising and reporting.
They are actively bullying and shitting on game devs that don't support their agenda if they can't force them to make games that agree with them
I thought the point of gamergate wasn't to fight feminism in game journalism .. but the corruption of game journalism. So I don't see how is that study supposed to debunk the movement's purpose.
[QUOTE=Zyler;46209580]Problem is these gaming journalists have enormous power over the coverage that game developers receive and the success of those games. They've been colluding with certain 'developers' (if you can even call the people who make games in Twine or Unity in 6 hours developers) who are their friends and collegues while ignoring or not even mentioning actual game developers because they either don't like their political beliefs, because those developers don't give the games journalists special privileges like free ipods and hookers (I have to find the article that talks about this).
Here's a good blod post about it from a game dev: [url]http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/457741/GamerGatethe_free_ride_is_over[/url]
The reason people complain is stuff like this
-Brianna Wu's game-
and this:
-Depression Quest-
gets massive praise and attention while stuff like this:
[video=youtube;nyfmd9ZMyIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyfmd9ZMyIw[/video]
gets completely ignored and blacklisted from sites like gamasutra despite being a incredibly promising title because they don't like the developers.
All of these games are made by indie game devs with, funilly enough, just about the same budget entirely funded by kickstarter. And yet some of these people can simply degrade the gaming news scene so much that they can influence the market a lot more than any genuinely good game dev who doesn't wield stupid amounts of political and social power ever could.
It's fine and dandy for you to say to us to just stop reading these sites, but the reality is actual indie game devs who are only getting by by the skin of their teeth are being hamstrung by these gaming journalists because a lot of people happen to read them.
If you like or enjoy video games in any way, and want them to continue to be fun, artful and [b]good[/b] any time into the future, then you must support GamerGate and denounce corrupt journalistic practices designed to sell shitty games for massive profit through false advertising and reporting.[/QUOTE]
It is even worse knowing why Kingdom Come: Deliverance got on the blacklist and got only negative attention from most sites: People complained that there was a lack of racial diversity. In a game set in medieval Bohemia in 1300. Not big of a surprise that you are not going to see people outside of Europe at all. It is like those people didn't pay attention in school.
[QUOTE=Jordax;46209631]It is even worse knowing why Kingdom Come: Deliverance got on the blacklist and got only negative attention from most sites: People complained that there was a lack of racial diversity. In a game set in medieval Bohemia in 1300. It is like those people didn't pay attention in school at all.[/QUOTE]
They are actively blacklisting games they don't agree with because they know even if they gave it negative attention that people would either rally against them or complain. They are deliberately trying to sweep their bias under the rug or pretend that "objectivity doesn't matter" when they are directly punishing specific game devs with their actions. When you're ruining people's careers, lives and causing them to lose their jobs it most certainly does matter.
[QUOTE=Mecha Pirate;46209630]I thought the point of gamergate wasn't to fight feminism in game journalism .. but the corruption of game journalism. So I don't see how is that study supposed to debunk the movement's purpose.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's the point of GamerGate as a consumerist movement. People who are against GamerGate have tried to twist it into a feminist issue by saying that GamerGate is a hate mob. That's why one of the main points in that gamergate image that people post is "I condemn personal threats, I support women in gaming". It's basically saying that GamerGate is not against women in gaming but is against abuse and corruption instead.
[thumb]http://33.media.tumblr.com/cc59cdbc342d4bbe180a5309ec82d5b6/tumblr_nbb64ogexd1sqab8ao1_500.jpg[/thumb]
Man, I bet TB will make a video about Kingdom Come: Deliverance
And it will make more people buy the game than the whiny blacklisters and their plummeting readership ever could.
Is it just me or is there some sort of verbal trend going around where people will say "Gamergate started out with good intentions but now" ?
It really baffles me because I have no idea what the "but now" is. Things have been progressively getting better. It shifted from Zoe Quinn to a games journalism discussion where doxxing and harassment is discouraged (at least by one side).
I feel like it just says "Well in hind sight I cant argue with it but I am too much of a coward to say I agree or disagree with it"
It's a narrative shift. Nearly two months ago, a lot of those people said "GamerGate was inherently based on a harassment campaign."
And yeah, if anything, things are better [i]now[/i] than they were two months ago. Most of GG was based around 4chan when it started. Now there's a little bit of every community involved.
[QUOTE=Reimu;46210021]It's a narrative shift. Nearly two months ago, a lot of those people said "GamerGate was inherently based on a harassment campaign."
And yeah, if anything, things are better [i]now[/i] than they were two months ago. Most of GG was based around 4chan when it started. Now there's a little bit of every community involved.[/QUOTE]
Really? Because it seems like a lot of people still say "it's based on a harassment campaign" on twitter.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;46210059]Really? Because it seems like a lot of people still say "it's based on a harassment campaign" on twitter.[/QUOTE]
Well, true! Now that I think about it, "GG had good intentions but went bad because of the harassment" is kind of a reigning narrative that's been around for awhile (maybe since the original IRC log post?).
Frankly I'm still pessimistic. There is -no- winning against the official narrative because they know the right buzzwords that convince outsiders and official channels. So far it's been a stalemate, and that's the best we'll ever get. People at large just think GG is a bunch of self-important nerds making a fuss, and while that's better than being branded a harassment campaign, it's ultimately a loss still.
Do we even have any figures on whether the changes in readership numbers for the affected game journo sites were permanent? I'm willing to bet they're mostly back to square one. The established despotism remains.
[QUOTE=Reimu;46208992]The issue I keep having is that I don't want to startle a hornet's nest. One time, I was critical of GG for focusing too hard on DiGRA, and I ended up having an enormous argument with a bunch of GGers who wanted to pick apart everything I said.
It must've lasted an hour or two, just a constant line of tweets. Usually from one or two people too and with others flowing in and out of the conversation. I try to avoid that by taking the path of least resistance, but I also think it's kind of clear that I need to walk the walk about being critical/distancing myself if I want to talk it.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes you just need to ignore people. The internet is always thinking and always ready to argue, you aren't.
Cut yourself some slack. It's not a sin to step away from twitter for a few hours or even days and wait for people to distil their concerns down into something more manageable.
I mentioned this in Reimu's stream with current topics and concerns presented, should we do a stream chat?
[QUOTE=Ithon;46210253]I mentioned this in Reimu's stream with current topics and concerns presented, should we do a stream chat?[/QUOTE]
Personally, I thought it was a good idea. Especially since a lot of us have interesting/useful viewpoints.
[QUOTE=Zyler;46209580]
The reason people complain is stuff like this
[thumb]http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/6/63573/2467890-screen+shot+2013-04-10+at+1.17.00+pm.png[/thumb]
and this:
[thumb]http://depts.washington.edu/critgame/project/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/depression-quest.png[/thumb]
gets massive praise and attention while stuff like this:
[video=youtube;nyfmd9ZMyIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyfmd9ZMyIw[/video]
gets completely ignored and blacklisted from sites like gamasutra despite being a incredibly promising title because they don't like the developers.
[/QUOTE]
But both Kotaku and RPS have covered Kingdom Come within the past week:
[URL]http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/08/kingdom-come-deliverances-rural-idyll/[/URL]
[URL]http://kotaku.com/https-www-youtube-com-watch-v-zvzxu6xs-x8-the-trailer-1643747998[/URL]
[QUOTE=Wowza!;46210339]But both Kotaku and RPS have covered Kingdom Come within the past week:
[URL]http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/08/kingdom-come-deliverances-rural-idyll/[/URL]
[URL]http://kotaku.com/https-www-youtube-com-watch-v-zvzxu6xs-x8-the-trailer-1643747998[/URL][/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dptaEKp.png[/IMG]
October 4: TotalBiscuit said he'd take a look at the game.
Both articles: Created on October 8.
I dunno, they might have just created those articles out of fear, but that's just my guess.
[QUOTE=EmperorVagak;46210689][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dptaEKp.png[/IMG]
October 4: TotalBiscuit said he'd take a look at the game.
Both articles: Created on October 8.
I dunno, they might have just created those articles out of fear, but that's just my guess.[/QUOTE]
I highly doubt people have the time to follow every tweet by TotalBiscuit so closely, nor do I think the readers of Kotaku or RPS are going to stop reading because they didn't cover a game.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
