Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread.
15,084 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Wolfos;46237497]I didn't see this posted here. It's an interview with a couple of (anonymous) game devs about GG.
[url]http://www.nichegamer.net/2014/10/gamergate-interview-reviewing-the-reviewers-double-time-edition/[/url]
It's a nice read, if a bit long.[/QUOTE]
Game developers really need to just stand up, all at once, and call out the bullshit all at the same time. They need to pull out every story they've ever had about these people, every negative thing they've seen these people affect. They all need to name names, name websites, name organizations that are all pulling this crap because that would end it quicker than an axe to the chest. I don't know if it will happen, but I hope it does.
[QUOTE=Banned?;46237539]Game developers really need to just stand up, all at once, and call out the bullshit all at the same time.[/QUOTE]
I'm really surprised that it hasn't happened yet, honestly. Like yesterday's (today's?) King's stream - managed to pull people completely out of the blue, even saying there were "a couple". I mean, if there're people who are ready to call bullshit on media's agenda, why no one has coordinated it yet.
[QUOTE=gudman;46237595]I'm really surprised that it hasn't happened yet, honestly. Like yesterday's (today's?) King's stream - managed to pull people completely out of the blue, even saying there were "a couple". I mean, if there're people who are ready to call bullshit on media's agenda, why no one has coordinated it yet.[/QUOTE]
It's never gonna happen. For the most part indie devs are anti-gg and the people who aren't aren't going to speak up or they'll be shunned from their group of friends or whatever. As for AAA I don't think people wanna openly say they support one side or another otherwise they can ruin their careers.
Honestly the people I'm most pissed off with are YouTubers. They have been largely ignoring this when they should be standing up for us, after all gaming journalism competes directly with them.
[QUOTE=Thlis;46237370]Literally what?[/QUOTE]
Kind of odd she never ever ever has worked with maya yet maya has advanced gaming a thousandfold.
Wonder what chupa has to say about that.
[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;46237643]It's never gonna happen. For the most part indie devs are anti-gg and the people who aren't aren't going to speak up or they'll be shunned from their group of friends or whatever. As for AAA I don't think people wanna openly say they support one side or another otherwise they can ruin their careers.[/quote]
True, true. But some do. That's promising, I think. At least it gives some hope.
[quote]
Honestly the people I'm most pissed off with are YouTubers. They have been largely ignoring this when they should be standing up for us, after all gaming journalism competes directly with them.[/QUOTE]
Well... not directly, and not with everyone. A lot of youtube personalities have ties with larger media for one. There's also another reason, I think, they fear the reprisal for standing on either side. Youtuber is an easy target for doxxing, flag-strikes etc, so they'd rather just stick fingers in their ears.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;46236506]Not really. A huge company like Intel pulls ads, they scream about it, then look bad because people know Intel wouldn't do it without good reason.[/QUOTE]No they don't. They don't think about it in the littlest. They just go "Ohh, weird. I guess assholes bitched enough." Its what people do every single time in the past. No one cares about the advertisers, even the people losing the advertisers don't care enough.
[QUOTE][I]You[/I] are the pity party, I for one have a lot of fun with this.
Even the crazy-biased TV interviews have surprising comedy value.[/QUOTE]
So I guess you're just in this this "forthelulz" or what? I'm not looking for pity, I'm looking to see people actually trying to bring about some awareness. I'm pissed off because its getting lazy and pitiful. No one is focusing their energy in to anything more than quiet emails to advertisers and crap twitter battles they literally cannot win under any circumstances.
And you know, another thing about advertisers, if public opinion comes out against the movement, they will shift back in full force. How long does any think the movement has got at this point before the advertisers walk right back in and put their ads back? You think that once the general public starts considering GamerGate like these sites have been portraying it that Intel and all the others won't immediately just return to supporting Gamasutra.
But you know, if this is how people are going to act, maybe the movement needs to die. Let it curl up and die, and let something better take its place with people who actually give a fuck. I look forward to getting to throw it right back in your faces.
[QUOTE=27X;46237652]Kind of odd she never ever ever has worked with maya yet maya has advanced gaming a thousandfold.
[/QUOTE]
If anything, that confirms her words... if Zoe thinks MFK has advanced gaming, she really never worked with her.
The truth is simpler, Zoe is a lying bitch whose words worth about as much as her own contribution to the industry: anywhere from non-existent to negative figures. I see no reason for TFYC to talk to her past "please contact our lawyer if you got shit to say".
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0wRwf80.png[/img]
article adam linked: [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2014/05/27/seth-rogen-and-judd-apatow-dont-blame-us-for-misogynistic-massacre/[/url]
i wish adam baldwin had nothing to do with this. he's a nutcase
Adam Baldwin understands gamergate more than boogie at a fundamental level and he's also more mentally stable than boogie. You guys are letting your biases cloud your judgement of him. If he was a retard he would have ruined this somehow by now because he had many many opportunities to do it, but he isn't a retard.
[URL]http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/21/7462/sides-screen-adam-baldwin-talks-integrity-journalism-transparency-gamergate[/URL]
[QUOTE=Banned?;46237539]Game developers really need to just stand up, all at once, and call out the bullshit all at the same time. They need to pull out every story they've ever had about these people, every negative thing they've seen these people affect. They all need to name names, name websites, name organizations that are all pulling this crap because that would end it quicker than an axe to the chest. I don't know if it will happen, but I hope it does.[/QUOTE]
The people who are most likely to do this are "Superstar" game devs (Tim Schafer, Cliff Blezinski, Phil Fish, Peter Moleneux, the entirety of Bioware, John Romero if you still consider him relevant, etc.) and they tend to be very image conscious. Uncovering corruption is noble but it doesn't do much to promote the "maverick visionary with larger-than-life ideas" image they go for. Having the press report everything you say and do like you're some kind of Hollywood celebrity, however, does a lot to promote that image. And that's something the gaming media does all the time. Other devs are probably going to be far more apprehensive about doing something that could make lots of people they've never met angry at them.
[quote] bioware [/quote] already threw in with #AGG the day this shit went down.
[QUOTE=27X;46236813]Of course she's going to mention that Bayonetta was designed, ported to screen and animated by several women right?
right.[/QUOTE]
Women are just as sexist against women and men as men are against women and men. That's not a valid defense.
(not calling Bayonetta sexist though, I never played either one, but it looks like this is about the main character being an attractive strong woman I assume?)
[QUOTE=Robber;46237956]Women are just as sexist against women and men as men are against women and men. That's not a valid defense.
(not calling Bayonetta sexist though, I never played either one, but it looks like this is about the main character being an attractive strong woman I assume?)[/QUOTE]
I disagree, their whole argument hinges on the whole "evil misogynistic men trying to objectify women". Showing that there are both women working in the industry and that the apparently sexist characters in video games are actually designed by female game devs undermines that imagery and goes against the idea that the character simply looks the way to do in order to fulfill the developer's sexist fantasies (since you know, straight women generally wouldn't be into that because they aren't attracted to women).
[QUOTE=27X;46237951]already threw in with #AGG the day this shit went down.[/QUOTE]
I know. Honestly the only person I listed who I can see siding against the press is Romero, since he's one of the few cases of a "superstar" dev getting thrown under the bus by it. He's probably too far out of the loop to be helpful, though.
[QUOTE=Zyler;46237968]I disagree, their whole argument hinges on the whole "evil misogynistic men trying to objectify women". Showing that there are both women working in the industry and that the apparently sexist characters in video games are actually designed by female game devs undermines that imagery and goes against the idea that the character simply looks the way to do in order to fulfill the developer's sexist fantasies (since you know, straight women generally wouldn't be into that because they aren't attracted to women).[/QUOTE]
It absolutely undermines that imagery (which I feel does a lot to alienate men from feminism), but I was talking about the general concept of sexism. I guess it was just a misunderstanding then. :)
[QUOTE=Robber;46237956]Women are just as sexist against women and men as men are against women and men. That's not a valid defense.
(not calling Bayonetta sexist though, I never played either one, but it looks like this is about the main character being an attractive strong woman I assume?)[/QUOTE]
Not propping as a defense, it's simply the kind of thing she misses over and over, because she has other people do her research. (such as it is)
Double Dragon Neon is another obvious example.
Here's a great post from NerdCubed of all people: [url]http://nerdcubedactually.tumblr.com/post/100067793254[/url]
[quote][B]There’s a type of argument used in politics (and elsewhere) that I like to refer to as a “Trump Card” Argument. This is when somebody has run out of actual arguments and instead uses a Trump card. Something that cannot be beaten. Something that stops the debate with a cheap win. Something that lets them re-write the narrative.[/B]
How many times have you heard these.
"We have to block certain websites… to save the children”
"We have to spy on you… to stop terrorism”
Now if you debate the opposite you are siding with the terrorist pedophiles and you lose. Trump Card arguments are the worst. They’re an argument played by the losers to become the winners in a cheap way. The debate equivalent of a roll-up pin.
The reason I bring this up is because there is a new one.
"If you support gamergate… you’re a misogynist.”
Yup. We gonna talk about GamerGate. Now, don’t worry. I still Megaloathe You All but I’ve decided to wade in just once more to point something out. The narrative of this story is becoming deeply one sided.
[B]Yesterday a prominent member of the gaming community had death threats sent to his wife with his home address posted alongside that threat.
Now I know what you’re thinking, that’s a typical GamerGate response. Aggression, threats and targeting women. Except it’s not. That person was Boogie2988, someone who is very much pro-GamerGate.
Huh.[/B]
(This is the obligatory paragraph where I say threats are bad and are only being done by a tiny group of people but I’m only writing this because if I don’t people will put me in the narrative and assume I hate all women and want them to be exploded or something. Every article about GamerGate must contain this paragraph. Sure it’s stating the obvious but without it your article is the equivalent of the Death Star’s exhaust. It’s a block over a structural weakness that would allow people to disregard everything else you write, no matter how on point.)
Another interesting tweet from yesterday was from Wikileaks. (Wikileaks being another great Trump Card example. “You can’t read these leaks from Assange because he’s a rapist” etc etc.) This shows that GamerGate has leaked out of the world of gaming and is now out there. I’ve seen many articles all over the net devoted to it. What do most of them say? Well Vice had this headline yesterday…
"Does Someone Have to Actually Die Before GamerGate Calms Down?"
Ouch.
[B]Something else that’s caught my eye. The sheer amount of games people dismissing GamerGate as “Calm down dear, it’s just videogames.” The same reviewers and personalities that go up in arms when a game doesn’t quite hit 1080p or their review code is late are happily dismissing any concept of corruption offhandedly before going back to arguing with a 14 year old about which N64 Mario Game was better. I don’t understand.
[/B]
The reason why I always seem to be picking on the side of “anti-GamerGate” is simple. Pretty much everyone I follow on twitter is anti-GamerGate and so it’s all I’m exposed to. However I’m seeing the same shitty patterns I see when I hear a politician explain why they need more surveillance etc. It’s Trump card mania out there. It just looks like a whole bunch of people making BS excuses to cover up the real reason. There is corruption in this industry. My industry. That’s why I care.
[B]But you see these words above me? They fit the narrative. I’m talking about “is GamerGate misogynist” and not “what do we do about corruption?” Go to the GamerGate hashtag and read. Everything, every damn post will be this discussion. Nobody on either side is talking about corruption and that’s why GamerGate is losing. It’s fighting it’s side by attacking the trump card.
Now here’s how to fix it.
- Use the hashtag for one of two things. Condemning threats and talking about corruption. Ignore everything else. Don’t feed the narrative.
- Stop picking on people. Seriously, the RTs and images of “Look what this person said” do nothing but make you look like bullies picking on people’s friends. Sure, the person you were talking about may have been a dick but ignore them. GamerGate focused places like r/KotakuInAction seem to have “Brianna Wu did this” as every other post. Leave them be and focus on the two points. Condemning threats and talking about corruption.
- I thought of a third thing you could do with the hashtag. Promote games you you like created by female developers. This is supposed to be a consumer movement. Ramp that side up. Share awesome games.
- Don’t circulate anything you can’t prove yourself. This isn’t high school, gossip is killer.
- “We do not negotiate with terrorists.” “We do not tolerate X.” “We are always watching” etc etc. You sound like an 8 year old pretending to be the Terminator. Shut the fuck up.
- The block button is faster than an angry reply. Use it.
- Don’t share the shitty click-bait articles. Don’t even read them. “14 ways GamerGate are Literally Terrorists” can fuck off.
- SJW aren’t the enemy. Corruption is. Ignore them.
Follow that lot and maybe, just maybe, you’ll pull out of this nose dive. It’ll be a damn sight easier to help journalism when you aren’t fighting the power of the Trump Card.[/B][/quote]
[editline]15th October 2014[/editline]
You know what you can do? Turn their own tag against them. Use that stupid #StopGamerGate2014 thing and use it to actually spread the message. "Use the hashtag for one of two things. Condemning threats and talking about corruption. Ignore everything else. Don’t feed the narrative." They got it trending, so take this opportunity to bury them with it.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vwcLB1T.png[/img]
Anti-gamergate bought ISIS ad bots which are now promoting their hashtag.
I've noticed that whenever there is a rational call to action from people like Nerdcubed to do certain things to legitimize the movement - logical, and fair courses of action like not point fingers and play high school, it does not seem like it's having a lot of effect on the protesters. Like, literally after the Nerdcubed post we get a tweet of 'look at what that person did' on a shared image file. So .. what's wrong here? Am I missing something? If you wish to know, I do not use social media myself.
This has happened multiple times in the thread, undocumented, but I recall that whenever there is a rational post here, things seem to fly past the ears. I realize the post above me is a joke, but I'm still concerned about the mentality that plagues the movement.
Just yesterday I was thinking about how to word and name that tactic where you divert the discussion by using a sort-of-connected-but-not-the-point argument that can't be ignored because it's such a sensitive matter(feminism here).
He found it. The Trump Card.
I am honestly trying to do the absolute best things possible to save the movement. It is dying. Quit telling yourselves we're winning, we're not. It does not matter how many advertisers pull their ads from sites. If the general populace is against the movement, it will fail and the problem will only get worse because then they know they can do whatever they want and get away with it. The game has to change, we have to stop fighting in their battlegrounds, on their terms, with their narrative.
Frankly, as scary as it may sound, the movement has to find a way to "professionalize". It needs to take lessons from legitimate movements, political, consumer, civil, whatever, and put those in to play.
This is literally the only chance we'll likely ever get, certainly for a long time.
So if I seem to be bitching a lot, its because people need a kick in the ass to keep this thing alive.
[editline]15th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mattk50;46238187]
Anti-gamergate is *actually* ISIS
(or they bought bots which funds ISIS)[/QUOTE]This, don't do this. It doesn't help at all, its just petty.
[editline]15th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mecha Pirate;46238197]I've noticed that whenever there is a rational call to action from people like Nerdcubed to do certain things to legitimize the movement - logical, and fair courses of action like not point fingers and play high school, it does not seem like it's having a lot of effect on the protesters. Like, literally after the Nerdcubed post we get a tweet of 'look at what that person did' on a shared image file. So .. what's wrong here? Am I missing something? If you wish to know, I do not use social media myself.
This has happened multiple times in the thread, undocumented, but I recall that whenever there is a rational post here, things seem to fly past the ears. I realize the post above me is a joke, but I'm still concerned about the mentality that plagues the movement.[/QUOTE]You're right, and its disappointing.
Many of those posts probably are mine. For at least a couple weeks now I've been trying to push people to legitimize the movement. And its just falling on deaf ears. Its helpless enough looking at whats happening to the movement, but its worse seeing that, and then when you try to get people to fix it they don't want to listen.
Mattk50, can you take your post off?
When I say 'this has happened', I also mean, that people simply ignored the post above them and continued to play high school.
Looks like he won't get it off..
No reason to. It's a great example of how stupid this situation is and how ridiculous many of the claims being flung around are. Oh, and it's more proof on the pile that the #stopgamergate tag is full of bots, which we already have evidence on due to intense numbers of posts from specific bot heavy portions of the world. Edited to be "less petty", but im not removing it.
edit: [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46238203]I am honestly trying to do the absolute best things possible to save the movement. It is dying. Quit telling yourselves we're winning, we're not. It does not matter how many advertisers pull their ads from sites. If the general populace is against the movement, it will fail and the problem will only get worse because then they know they can do whatever they want and get away with it. The game has to change, we have to stop fighting in their battlegrounds, on their terms, with their narrative.
Frankly, as scary as it may sound, the movement has to find a way to "professionalize". It needs to take lessons from legitimate movements, political, consumer, civil, whatever, and put those in to play.
This is literally the only chance we'll likely ever get, certainly for a long time.[/QUOTE]
Most "legitimate movements" either aren't open as gamergate is/has to be, or have had exactly the same criticisms levied against us. If you think we're going to lose because of public perception, that may not be something we can do anything about realistically. It also may mean you should adjust your "win" condition. Gamergate has already skyrocketed awareness of issues of corruption and ethics violations in journalism, in my book we've already won in a huge way.
It may be that the issue of the public being stupid and easily convinced by propoganda is a much larger global education issue. Outside our scope in gamergate, not that it isn't an important issue. If people are so easily fooled by straw men, ad hom, and intellectual bullying, there's not tons we can do is there until the world changes? It's what happened to occupy.
Okay, the hashtag is filled with bots. Don't point fingers on who made those bots, even though it's 'obvious'.
whoever is responsible for that is stooping real fuckin low.
The movement may have lost the PR war, but the gaming community remembers who acted like asshats. The anti-GG people have largely no investment in games, and thus won't make any actual impact on the market. Let's find consolation in that simple fact.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;46238287]No reason to. It's a great example of how stupid this situation is and how ridiculous many of the claims being flung around are. Oh, and it's more proof on the pile that the #stopgamergate tag is full of bots, which we already have evidence on due to intense numbers of posts from specific bot heavy portions of the world. Edited to be "less petty", but im not removing it.
edit:
Most "legitimate movements" either aren't open as gamergate is/has to be, or have had exactly the same criticisms levied against us. If you think we're going to lose because of public perception, that may not be something we can do anything about realistically. It also may mean you should adjust your "win" condition. Gamergate has already skyrocketed awareness of issues of corruption and ethics violations in journalism, in my book we've already won in a huge way.
It may be that the issue of the public being stupid and easily convinced by propoganda is a much larger global education issue. Outside our scope in gamergate, not that it isn't an important issue. If people are so easily fooled by straw men, ad hom, and intellectual bullying, there's not tons we can do is there until the world changes? It's what happened to occupy.[/QUOTE]
That ISIS account most likely just took a bunch of popular hash tags to get as much exposure as possible. This has actually nothing to do with anything relevant.
