Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

Sargon is on quite a roll [video=youtube;DYhEA3NZ1rc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYhEA3NZ1rc[/video]

Watching videos from people who are anti-gamergate is baffling to me. I can not understand the minds of these people. How can you call GGers misogynists and in the same breath deny that female GGers exist to their face? How can you see people, individuals, stand up to you and say "You don't represent me, I disagree with you" and tell them they don't exist, or that they're liars? What kind of bubble do you live in where you can deny reality and twist everything so that you're never wrong? Also, what's the obsession with narrative? We aren't in a fucking book, there is no through line narrative that controls everything. Why do they not comprehend individuality? Why does a criticism of a woman have to be an attack on all women? Why and how is this a thing?

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46444723]Watching videos from people who are anti-gamergate is baffling to me. I can not understand the minds of these people. How can you call GGers misogynists and in the same breath deny that female GGers exist to their face? How can you see people, individuals, stand up to you and say "You don't represent me, I disagree with you" and tell them they don't exist, or that they're liars? What kind of bubble do you live in where you can deny reality and twist everything so that you're never wrong? Also, what's the obsession with narrative? We aren't in a fucking book, there is no through line narrative that controls everything. Why do they not comprehend individuality? Why does a criticism of a woman have to be an attack on all women? Why and how is this a thing?[/QUOTE] I've been saying narrative a lot more, also vitriol.

[QUOTE=Ayane-152;46444520]Sargon is on quite a roll [video=youtube;DYhEA3NZ1rc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYhEA3NZ1rc[/video][/QUOTE] I think this is the best video I've ever seen that summarises the mentality of these people. Basically: 1) Nothing in society represents society (everything is arbitrary unless they say otherwise, nothing exists unless they allow it to) 2)People represent culture, not the other way around (The media controls people, people do not control the media. It is both a useful tool and incredibly dangerous and is only good if it is used for stringently good purposes) 3)Individuals cannot have their own opinions separate from groups because ideology underpins everything (Continuing from the last point, people can't think for themselves, every single person only believes something because they are told to. This is the believer themselves projecting.) I honestly feel bad for these people because they must live in constant fear of any form of media or culture that works off any kind of base assumption other than their own because it will instantly lead to anarchy and decay. This is what leads you to make your beliefs off feelings and advocacy rather than facts or evidence. Everything is based off some ubiquietous and objectively fallacious sense of good and bad that sounds reasonable but is inherently more conspiratorial than what /pol/ thinks up. [QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46444723]Watching videos from people who are anti-gamergate is baffling to me. I can not understand the minds of these people. How can you call GGers misogynists and in the same breath deny that female GGers exist to their face? How can you see people, individuals, stand up to you and say "You don't represent me, I disagree with you" and tell them they don't exist, or that they're liars? What kind of bubble do you live in where you can deny reality and twist everything so that you're never wrong? Also, what's the obsession with narrative? We aren't in a fucking book, there is no through line narrative that controls everything. Why do they not comprehend individuality? Why does a criticism of a woman have to be an attack on all women? Why and how is this a thing?[/QUOTE] Same as the traffic lights, those women are arbitrary. Identity politics is like Santa Claus, you either believe in it or you're not an idiot. The whole thing stems from a fear of the media, a fear of criticism and a fear of insecurity.

[QUOTE=Ayane-152;46444520]Sargon is on quite a roll [video=youtube;DYhEA3NZ1rc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYhEA3NZ1rc[/video][/QUOTE] I can never watch these because the original clips piss me off too much.

each small victory is still a victory. [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2lqev4/we_might_be_able_to_get_celebrinando_guy_arrested/[/url] hope this happens, to close to judge.

What measures did these guys have taken to be sure the threats are coming from that Brazillian guy? After the whole Boston Marathon vigilantism incident,I just block out any accusations on the internet from my head entirely

[QUOTE=Zyler;46444783]I think this is the best video I've ever seen that summarises the mentality of these people. Basically: 1) Nothing in society represents society (everything is arbitrary unless they say otherwise, nothing exists unless they allow it to) 2)People represent culture, not the other way around (The media controls people, people do not control the media. It is both a useful tool and incredibly dangerous and is only good if it is used for stringently good purposes) 3)Individuals cannot have their own opinions separate from groups because ideology underpins everything (Continuing from the last point, people can't think for themselves, every single person only believes something because they are told to. This is the believer themselves projecting.) [/QUOTE] The huge problem is that this type of thinking strips away any sort of free will or agency people have. There are certainly things that influence us, but we can choose to follow or reject them. We're not simply various stereotypes given flesh, like an experiment from a bored god. They think they can change everything by changing the media, but people aren't stupid; they know when they're being forced to accept something or know they're being pandered to, neither of which they like. I've seen that a lot of their solutions to "inclusiveness" are about as suble and natural as the ham-fisted diversity in TV shows made during the late 80s and early 90s. If you want an LGBT example of this, look at Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel, where a lot of characters are gay. However, it's about as subtle as having a limb hacked off and feels like it exists just for "inclusiveness", which just pisses people off because of how forced it is.

[QUOTE=Ayane-152;46444520]Sargon is on quite a roll [video=youtube;DYhEA3NZ1rc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYhEA3NZ1rc[/video][/QUOTE] I think what I learned from this is that "dumb feminism"... instead of using normal definitions, they just redefine words. I mean, a while back someone brought up that someone redefined "sexual harassment".

[QUOTE=EmperorVagak;46445358]I think what I learned from this is that "dumb feminism"... instead of using normal definitions, they just redefine words. I mean, a while back someone brought up that someone redefined "sexual harassment".[/QUOTE] It happens on Tumblr a whole bunch. People especially love to attach "institutional power" to things like racism and sexism. So, for example, it's apparently totally impossible to sexually harass a guy, simply because he's a guy and coming from a position of "institutional power" also known as privilege.

I almost feel like the push for awareness of social privilege is misguided when economic privilege exists and causes immense amounts of suffering. Who is more downtrodden; a white guy working two jobs, struggling to get by? Or a black woman who owns a large company and makes the conscious decision to pay her workers a non-living wage? Although this is getting off-topic.

[QUOTE=Penultimate;46445422]It happens on Tumblr a whole bunch. People especially love to attach "institutional power" to things like racism and sexism. So, for example, it's apparently totally impossible to sexually harass a guy, simply because he's a guy and coming from a position of "institutional power" also known as privilege.[/QUOTE] I think that's partially because Tumblr's audience are shut-in teenage and college girls with major social anxiety issues that have more experince with Kirk assfucking Spock than they do actually talking with people and seeing how they behave. They don't understand how social interaction and people's views of others actually works, so they try to make it into a series of rules and if-then chains that apply to any situation, which are comically out of touch to anyone that talks with people.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46444723]Watching videos from people who are anti-gamergate is baffling to me. I can not understand the minds of these people. How can you call GGers misogynists and in the same breath deny that female GGers exist to their face? How can you see people, individuals, stand up to you and say "You don't represent me, I disagree with you" and tell them they don't exist, or that they're liars? What kind of bubble do you live in where you can deny reality and twist everything so that you're never wrong? Also, what's the obsession with narrative? We aren't in a fucking book, there is no through line narrative that controls everything. Why do they not comprehend individuality? Why does a criticism of a woman have to be an attack on all women? Why and how is this a thing?[/QUOTE] The main reason is arrogance. Other reasons are ignorance, intolerance and naivete, and my favorite word: insulation. Arrogance? Well, look at the last video: No perception can exist that is not mine. Mine is the only perception necessary for anyone born on earth that anyone would ever need to experience and fold into their consciousness, for mine is complete. Let's ignore that I never left my home turf, that I've never tried to live outside my nice squishy comfort zone, that I've never had to make a real sacrifice or even choose between integrity and well being, or choose to help someone at my own [I]literal[/I] expense, that my logistical wellness was preordained by dint of birth and is something I'll never have to worry about, any expenditure or hardship is already ameliorated by right and it is right that is done this way for me, for I am special. I'm meant for awesomeness; I mean I was born, right? ___ Ignorance: We've seen a clear lack of cause and effect; and a willful obfuscation of both narrative and reality, even when presented with literal truth that is the opposite of whatever they're selling is out right in front of their faces. Most of this is willful. No one is actually that obtuse all the time. But when you live within shouting distance of a hugbox echo chamber, you can erase any doubts you might have had by checking all your tweets and blogs to reassure yourself that you're absolutely correct in your assertions. Most of the feigned ignorance covers both agg harassment and that they're completely perpetually offtopic. _______ Intolerance? Again reinforced super insulated hugbox syndrome. [URL]https://twitter.com/AarynFlynn/status/171415952909533184[/URL] When you're in an Ivory tower you hypocritically accuse other of being in, it's easy to maintain that by keeping any kind of experience that might alter your world view at bay, especially where cultural or cognitive bias might come in. Your way is the only way, look how good it's working for you. It'll be the same for everyone else, obviously. _______ Naivete? If your brain hasn't physically finished forming yet... you probably don't have all the answers. Probably. ________ Insulation: See all the people who've inserted themselves after the super professionalism journalism cultural appropriation committee tried to circle the wagons after bullying and megaphoning didn't work.

[QUOTE=uber.;46443020]We're doing our weekly stream again: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkOyGMkSjo4[/url] [video=youtube;hkOyGMkSjo4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkOyGMkSjo4[/video] Got space if you'd like to join either write in the chat or send me a PM. :>[/QUOTE] Sorry, I fell asleep towards the end :/

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46444723]Watching videos from people who are anti-gamergate is baffling to me. I can not understand the minds of these people. How can you call GGers misogynists and in the same breath deny that female GGers exist to their face? How can you see people, individuals, stand up to you and say "You don't represent me, I disagree with you" and tell them they don't exist, or that they're liars? What kind of bubble do you live in where you can deny reality and twist everything so that you're never wrong? Also, what's the obsession with narrative? We aren't in a fucking book, there is no through line narrative that controls everything. Why do they not comprehend individuality? Why does a criticism of a woman have to be an attack on all women? Why and how is this a thing?[/QUOTE] There are people out there who actually think all gamergate does is making sockpuppet accounts on twitter to "win" a debate. I have been called a sockpuppet account when I told wolfire I was disappoinfed with him not doing any research. It's ridiculous

[QUOTE=Matrix374;46445051]What measures did these guys have taken to be sure the threats are coming from that Brazillian guy? After the whole Boston Marathon vigilantism incident,I just block out any accusations on the internet from my head entirely[/QUOTE] Multiple IP trackers, talking to him personally and him admitting it, the constant linking to his website... I think the list goes on. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;46445995]There are people out there who actually think all gamergate does is making sockpuppet accounts on twitter to "win" a debate. I have been called a sockpuppet account when I told wolfire I was disappoinfed with him not doing any research. It's ridiculous[/QUOTE] It happened to me too, he dismissed everyone as fake by default. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] Though I think his definition of "fake" is "not one of his customers".

We have gotten to the point where if people disagree with you they dont exist

[URL="http://tweetsave.com/mkelly007"]I think Kelly is (very very slowly) getting a hold of what is actually going on.[/URL] Very slowly. And she's definitely still not very good at marketing towards an unorganised group of individuals.

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;46446088]We have gotten to the point where if people disagree with you they dont exist[/QUOTE] 1984, anyone?

Havent been looking here again for a long time. How are things going?

[QUOTE=Ayane-152;46444520]Sargon is on quite a roll[/QUOTE] Couldn't make it past the stoplights part. Did the dude even bother reading up on the topic? [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Pteradactyl;46443694][URL]https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/530851798043877376[/URL][/QUOTE] Both sexes have problems being represented in video games because sometimes artists aren't very creative and writers aren't very good at writing. There is no imperative that male characters can be X, Y, or Z and female characters can't. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] If anything I'm sick of male protagonists being portrayed as grizzled psychopaths. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Ayane-152;46444520]Sargon is on quite a roll[/QUOTE] Two criticisms of an otherwise well done retort: 1) Death threats and various other harassment techniques do help gamergate if the end result is a critic of gamergate being silenced. This absolutely does not reflect what gamergate stands for and the person initiating the threats in all likelihood doesn't give a shit about corruption in games journalism but the end result is the same. Sadly, this is unavoidable, and it's unfair to attach this to gamergate. I just disagree with the idea that it doesn't help. 2) "You people care about labels, gamers care about the individual". I don't really think that's true at all. He actually torpedoes this point minutes later when he refers to the "San Fransisco culture". There is also the near ubiquitous use of the generalized insult "social justice warrior" that existed before gamergate and has only become more popular of an ad hominem. Both sides of every issue use labels to disparage their opponents.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46446918]Couldn't make it past the stoplights part. Did the dude even bother reading up on the topic? [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] Both sexes have problems being represented in video games because sometimes artists aren't very creative and writers aren't very good at writing. There is no imperative that male characters can be X, Y, or Z and female characters can't. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] If anything I'm sick of male protagonists being portrayed as grizzled psychopaths. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] Two criticisms of an otherwise well done retort: 1) Death threats and various other harassment techniques do help gamergate if the end result is a critic of gamergate being silenced. This absolutely does not reflect what gamergate stands for and the person initiating the threats in all likelihood doesn't give a shit about corruption in games journalism but the end result is the same. Sadly, this is unavoidable, and it's unfair to attach this to gamergate. I just disagree with the idea that it doesn't help. 2) "You people care about labels, gamers care about the individual". I don't really think that's true at all. He actually torpedoes this point minutes later when he refers to the "San Fransisco culture". There is also the near ubiquitous use of the generalized insult "social justice warrior" that existed before gamergate and has only become more popular of an ad hominem. Both sides of every issue use labels to disparage their opponents.[/QUOTE] Except the death threats do nothing to keep people quite they just spew rhetoric louder,and in the long run it just hurts the image of gamers more. The ''San Francisco culture " thing bugged me too IDGAF who or what you do generally until you start insulting me smearing one of the groups I identify with or wrong me on some level,I generally dont want to get into the SJW debate its a no win situation I learned this really fast when some SRSers got on my case over something taken out of context on tumblr(criticising someones work they are trying to sell is now sexist,ablist ,and racist.

TBH I don't necessarily agree with labeling the whole opposition as "SJW" because it's also just a boogieman/strawman like MRA or whatever but there's no denying we're against people with a rather communist outlook on society who seem to think totalitarianism is OK as long as it's "progressive" and that marginalised people belong to them: -snipped because fake- I guess this is a reason why some of them are erasing minorities in GG, they can't fathom why any minority would want to side with their circle's contrived "gamer" stereotype perceived to be white neckbeard mra gamers Seriously these people need to learn that the left does not own feminism or justice as a whole

[QUOTE=Steele92;46447900]TBH I don't necessarily agree with labeling the whole opposition as "SJW" because it's also just a boogieman/strawman like MRA[/QUOTE] SJW is used in the context of Gamergate (and pretty much anywhere, actually) as "people who use social justice to deflect criticism and further their own causes, commercial or otherwise, with little to no regards to/knowledge of the actual thing". And it's not a strawman, there's A LOT of people like that.

[QUOTE=Steele92;46447900]TBH I don't necessarily agree with labeling the whole opposition as "SJW" because it's also just a boogieman/strawman like MRA or whatever but there's no denying we're against people with a rather communist outlook on society who seem to think totalitarianism is OK as long as it's "progressive" and that marginalised people belong to them: [img]http://i.imgur.com/YWuEjj1.png[/img] I guess this is a reason why some of them are erasing minorities in GG, they can't fathom why any minority would want to side with their circle's contrived "gamer" stereotype perceived to be white neckbeard mra gamers Seriously these people need to learn that the left does not own feminism or justice as a whole[/QUOTE] Apparently that particular post has been confirmed as fake. Someone did it "to show how gullible Gamergate supporters are" or something like that. (There's a timestamped Reddit post somewhere containing the text and predating this, but made public later.) [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=gudman;46447975]SJW is used in the context of Gamergate (and pretty much anywhere, actually) as "people who use social justice to deflect criticism and further their own causes, commercial or otherwise, with little to no regards to/knowledge of the actual thing". And it's not a strawman, there's A LOT of people like that.[/QUOTE] Conversely there are definitely some people one would call MRA (or who call themselves that, but those are usually more only against "radical" feminism it seems).

[QUOTE=Steele92;46447900]TBH I don't necessarily agree with labeling the whole opposition as "SJW" because it's also just a boogieman/strawman like MRA or whatever but there's no denying we're against people with a rather communist outlook on society who seem to think totalitarianism is OK as long as it's "progressive" and that marginalised people belong to them: -snip- I guess this is a reason why some of them are erasing minorities in GG, they can't fathom why any minority would want to side with their circle's contrived "gamer" stereotype perceived to be white neckbeard mra gamers Seriously these people need to learn that the left does not own feminism or justice as a whole[/QUOTE] I don't think it's a "left or right" issue, it's about people who pretend to become "open-minded" and "accepting", only to become discriminatory towards the minorities that they claim to support. Throughout the last two months, I've seen a lot of those folks who carry the the brand of progressive ideologies to impress the majority by earning RTs, notes, views, and favorites. They aren't for social justice since they clearly don't care about minorities, just their own image. Fake or not, it's still common to see.

[QUOTE=gudman;46447975]SJW is used in the context of Gamergate (and pretty much anywhere, actually) as "people who use social justice to deflect criticism and further their own causes, commercial or otherwise, with little to no regards to/knowledge of the actual thing". And it's not a strawman, there's A LOT of people like that.[/QUOTE] Strawman probably wasn't the right word :v: I should have said the SJW term is a bit blanketing because there's some who are just grossly misinformed. I agree with you though, SJW types are only going to push this narrative because it feeds the delusion they're enlightened [QUOTE=Tamschi;46447991]Apparently that particular post has been confirmed as fake. Someone did it "to show how gullible Gamergate supporters are" or something like that. (There a timestamped Reddit post somewhere containing the text and predating this, but made public later.)[/QUOTE] Yeah I had a feeling it was fake, but it still puts into words this terrible mindset we're dealing with

[QUOTE=gudman;46447975]SJW is used in the context of Gamergate (and pretty much anywhere, actually) as "people who use social justice to deflect criticism and further their own causes, commercial or otherwise, with little to no regards to/knowledge of the actual thing". And it's not a strawman, there's A LOT of people like that.[/QUOTE] Two problems with this. Firstly, it's used in that context sure, but it's used generally as well to cover anything up to and including "liberal or progressive I happen to disagree with". I generally know the people who you refer to as "SJW's" are assholes, so I'd much rather them be called assholes because secondly, I don't like how something that includes "social justice" (a thousands-years-old philosophical ideology) is twisted into an insult. [editline]9th November 2014[/editline] It's different from calling someone an MRA because mens rights activism is an actual movement. To say someone is an MRA can be used as an insult from someone who thinks "mens rights" as it exists as a movement is laughable, but it wasn't engineered to be an ad hominem like social justice warrior has.

Kazerad linked something by a social justice activist on his Tumblr, which may interest a few people here (but it's very much in line what we've been seeing the whole time so there's not really that much new there): [URL="http://gganalysis.blogspot.de/2014/10/gamer-gate-analysis.html"]Gamer Gate Analysis[/URL] (The author seems to have made a new blog just for this post, but maybe there will be a follow up. I'm subscribing.) I haven't read all of it yet.

[QUOTE=gudman;46447975]SJW is used in the context of Gamergate (and pretty much anywhere, actually) as "people who use social justice to deflect criticism and further their own causes, commercial or otherwise, with little to no regards to/knowledge of the actual thing". And it's not a strawman, there's A LOT of people like that.[/QUOTE] Bingo. When your cause is somehow so powerful that it obviates reason and what is literally in front of your face, there's likely to be very little good that you'll be doing with it.