Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906685]Do you think the people creating sockpuppets accounts to pose as minorities in the gamergate tag have done anything to help you either?[/QUOTE] What wrong max just learning minorties are people to? With their own thoughts and opinions, not some animal you and your buddies can keep in a cage and take out when you need a shield. You are not Martan Luther King and never will be, for you do not even belive in equality. You are a danger to that dream of equality.

Don't get me wrong, the sockpuppet thing is a problem. But if you're not a marginalized identity, you shouldn't be bringing it up in the first place. Let us handle that. We can police ourselves. Both sides are "concern trolling" very heavily and people should be extremely skeptical of that. They're treating us like babies who need Zoe Quinn to guide us or else we'll end up going to ~4chan~. As if marginalized identities are fucking morons who cannot think for themselves.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;45906748]Holy shit, are you serious?[/QUOTE] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-45-00.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-45-21.png[/t] [QUOTE=Kaelnukem;45906690]In a way I have always liked it that you were willing to show your side of the situation. But lately you have become a real shitposter. It's as if you have lost a part of your identity that you were so proud of, but instead of trying to learn from it, you put your claws in it and refused to let it go.[/QUOTE] If [I]several [/I]weeks of IRC logs that show that the whole thing has been a 4chan raid operation from the start won't even sway you guys a little bit... If 4chan's reactions to the outing don't even cause you to second-guess what's actually going on... [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-39-12.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-29-15.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-31-19.png[/t] If the fact that gamergate has harassed @jennatar over a footnote in a The Guardian article for not pointing out disclosure, [URL="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwyDjRNCUAAof2o.png"]even though The Guardian themselves were fine with it[/URL], doesn't make you think that a group that goes on a crusade against writers based on false speculation shouldn't be dictating "ethics" to anyone... Then I think you guys are the ones putting your claws in and refusing to let go. If you want to look at corruption in gaming, look at the "official" mags and lavish AAA PR junkets, [I]not some freelancers scraping by[/I]. Look at AAA editors offering free flights and hardware to game journalists, instead of indie developers and a Kotaku writer who didn't even write a review of DQ. Everything people in this have done is target people who have no real power, or huge salaries; they bullied out the lowest common denominator in the games industry in terms of power and influence. Great job.

/pol/ turns out to be full of shit people. What a surprise.

[QUOTE=Reimu;45906730]Seeing how I've been put on trial by my own because I have different views from them? No, I don't think so, my credentials have been in stake the moment that I strayed from SRS. And that's something that's very important for me to bring up, mostly because I've been through a lot of bullshit for SJ (death threats, harassment, e-mails getting found, invasive internet comments, media slander) and I think I have a right to defend myself. No, this is a seroius problem and needs to be dealt with. I like Sarkeesian, Gone Home, and I use to like Depression Quest. Those are all serious and valid concerns and need to be dealt with: that some people are using this as an opportunity to attack SJ in gaming, instead of discussing the ramifications of unprofessional people in gaming. But I still think it's really shitty that people who disagree with me immediately pull the "well, you're not a real x" card. Fuck that shit, I basically got death threats for my TW activism. I'm livid that someone would use me as a rallying cry for inclusivity in May, and then throw me away when I'm not convenient for them.[/QUOTE] I respect that being called a sockpuppet, fake 'blank' is completely unacceptable. Even if it weren't hugely presumptuous, it would be a useless ad hominem that doesn't further discussion. Isn't it kind of impossible to separate yourself from the anti-SJ crowd while using a hashtag as broad as 'GamerGate', though? I mean, the person who started it (Adam Baldwin) has since revealed himself as totally loopy. I mean, maybe it's just that crazies are more prolific, but as someone on the milder end of the SJ side, most of my interaction has been with people concerned less with fixing journalism and more with pushing out socially minded journalism in general.

Those IRC logs were created before this took off, most of them were done before Eron told everyone to fuck off with the sexual harassment. And when Eron told people to fuck off, they fucked off. Hell, the second half of the logs show Eron telling people to do that, it's right there in the uploads. We've also been working on getting /v/ to stop making sockaccounts, and to reclaim the tag as something that any marginalized identity can use in regards to GG. Doesn't have to be pro- or anti-. Yes, there are problems with sockaccounts, but this has been massively overblown to the point where any marginalized identity posting in the tag is put under severe and unfair scrutiny. These writers are hardly the bottom of the barrel. You know who actually is? Freelance writers who get by doing free/very low paying writing that amounts to resume and build-up and internships. They have no connections and no support group. They break like twigs. And a lot of them have been working to support GG, yet a lot of them have faced harassment, death threats, and doxxing threats. Yes, the focus needs to be on AAA as well. That has missed out. But indie gaming is also a powerful industry in its own right, and writers/devs/journos have a lot of power in it. That needs to be recognized.

Okay you win Max. You uncovered the ruse. Your very select examples of random people have proven that people like Reimu are sock puppet accounts.

[QUOTE=Denicide;45906816]Isn't it kind of impossible to separate yourself from the anti-SJ crowd while using a hashtag as broad as 'GamerGate', though? I mean, the person who started it (Adam Baldwin) has since revealed himself as totally loopy.[/quote] This could be said of any form of activism. Are most people aware that feminism started on racism, classism, transphobia, and ableism? Yet feminism was gradually reclaimed and turned into a positive form of activism, and has actively turned into an intersectional movement that targets the original pillars it was founded on. So, just because Gloria Steinem is an infeluential TERF 2nd wave feminist, should I remove myself from feminism altogether? Or should I try to acknowledge nuance and try to reclaim it? It's ridiculous. Movements are fluid. They change and can become more inclusive. 4chan was the catalyst here, but it is not the master puppet. Many initiatives began outside of 4chan, and many will be created without 4chan's approval. [quote]I mean, maybe it's just that crazies are more prolific, but as someone on the milder end of the SJ side, most of my interaction has been with people concerned less with fixing journalism and more with pushing out socially minded journalism in general.[/QUOTE] The fact that SJ people are being targeted should be alarming, but they also aren't the only ones being targeted. Right now, it's due to overlap. But even people like Totilo have been under scrutiny, and Totilo is not necessarily a bleeding heart.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906622]whoops, looks like #gamergate and #notyourshield got exposed for what they really are...[/QUOTE] WHOOPS LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE STILL SHITPOSTING

Max is actually Zoe Quinn: CONFIRMED

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906788][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-45-00.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-45-21.png[/t][/quote] Amazing, some people made sock puppet accounts, this means there are no minorities involved in Gamergate and you are morally superior if you abuse everyone involved, well done. [quote]If [I]several [/I]weeks of IRC logs that show that the whole thing has been a 4chan raid operation from the start won't even sway you guys a little bit... If 4chan's reactions to the outing don't even cause you to second-guess what's actually going on... [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-39-12.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-29-15.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-31-19.png[/t][/quote] I'm not sure you even read the first one since it deliberately says not to make claims if you are not a minority of some sort and makes no mention of sockpuppet accounts, and the other two are random idiots who someone screencapped while not including them getting shit on by everyone else, I think the "abort the raid" one is just a straight joke. [quote]If the fact that gamergate has harassed @jennatar over a footnote in a The Guardian article for not pointing out disclosure, [URL="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwyDjRNCUAAof2o.png"]even though The Guardian themselves were fine with it[/URL], doesn't make you think that a group that goes on a crusade against writers based on false speculation shouldn't be dictating "ethics" to anyone...[/quote] I still don't understand why people are making a martyr out of her, she wrote an awful piece on somewhere with more integrity than Kotaku and got canned because of it. I'm honestly surprised most places haven't canned people after the awful articles written about this fiasco, though I can see how you wouldn't think they're biased, inflammatory and factually incorrect given your history. [quote]Then I think you guys are the ones putting your claws in and refusing to let go. If you want to look at corruption in gaming, look at the "official" mags and lavish AAA PR junkets, [I]not some freelancers scraping by[/I]. Look at AAA editors offering free flights and hardware to game journalists, instead of indie developers and a Kotaku writer who didn't even write a review of DQ. Everything people in this have done is target people who have no real power, or huge salaries; they bullied out the lowest common denominator in the games industry in terms of power and influence. Great job.[/QUOTE] You wanna know what the AAA industry have done here? They shut up and didn't get involved. What did smaller publishers do? They directly attacked their audience and continue to do so in the same arrogant and pseudo-morally superior fashion that you are doing. I'm sure everyone is interested in fucking with AAA things, but when the topic at hand is a bunch of shitty publications abusing, dismissing and misrepresenting anyone who looks into their writers paying people they're giving exposure to, I'd say it's fair to do something about it.

[QUOTE=Reimu;45906863]This could be said of any form of activism. Are most people aware that feminism started on racism, classism, transphobia, and ableism? Yet feminism was gradually reclaimed and turned into a positive form of activism, and has actively turned into an intersectional movement that targets the original pillars it was founded on. So, just because Gloria Steinem is an infeluential TERF 2nd wave feminist, should I remove myself from feminism altogether? Or should I try to acknowledge nuance and try to reclaim it? It's ridiculous. Movements are fluid. They change and can become more inclusive. 4chan was the catalyst here, but it is not the master puppet. Many initiatives began outside of 4chan, and many will be created without 4chan's approval. The fact that SJ people are being targeted should be alarming, but they also aren't the only ones being targeted. Right now, it's due to overlap. But even people like Totilo have been under scrutiny, and Totilo is not necessarily a bleeding heart.[/QUOTE] Feminism may have began with racist, classist undertones, but you have to look at it in the context of its time. Should Woolf's 'A Room of One's Own' written in 1929 be disregarded for using the term 'negress' when it's so boldly progressive in other respects? Should 'The Second Sex' be disregarded for repeating the common liberal opinion of homosexuality as a 'phase' when it opened so much other discussion? It's absurd to expect women in the early 1900s - no matter how forward thinking - to adhere to modern values completely. By comparison GG is a phenomenon in 2014 with discourse (especially on twitter) so completely backwards it would appall most of those early feminists. I don't know that you should be so lenient with the ugliness anyone can see by viewing replies on Zoe's tweets when it seems so terribly widespread. You yourself said earlier in a reply to Max that: [QUOTE=Reimu;45906826]Those IRC logs were created before this took off, most of them were done before Eron told everyone to fuck off with the sexual harassment. And when Eron told people to fuck off, they fucked off. Hell, the second half of the logs show Eron telling people to do that, it's right there in the uploads.[/QUOTE] Isn't that hugely concerning? People didn't stop being sexist, openly misogynist etc. because it's shitty but because Eron told them to. The common thread here and on /v/ seems to be that bringing up the five guys thing is bad because it'll 'make the movement look bad', not that it's morally abhorrent. When people are constrained not by a basic sense of decency but by a desire to look credible, that's when I think you have to ask if a movement is worth saving.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906788]dumb shit.[/QUOTE] You're starting to threadshit. fuck off already!

Max, I've on the 4chan threads often about this and most of the pictures Zoe uses to implicate 4chan in any of this are misleading. You can see the actual reactions to one of the "ABORT THE RAID" pictures here: [url]http://archive.moe/v/thread/261914337/#261916104[/url]. This post explains another tweet she made and how misleading it is as well: [url]http://kazerad.tumblr.com/post/96703506118/this-excerpt-from-a-4chan-post-really-sums-up-what[/url]

Why isn't max perma'd yet seriously he threadshits twice a week

[QUOTE=Denicide;45906963]Feminism may have began with racist, classist undertones, but you have to look at it in the context of its time. Should Woolf's 'A Room of One's Own' written in 1929 be disregarded for using the term 'negress' when it's so boldly progressive in other respects? Should 'The Second Sex' be disregarded for repeating the common liberal opinion of homosexuality as a 'phase' when it opened so much other discussion? It's absurd to expect women in the early 1900s - no matter how forward thinking - to adhere to modern values completely.[/quote] But, in academic and feminist settings, [b]both[/b] of those issues are quickly erased and sanitized. Doubly so when professors try to place Wolf and her work on a pedestal. Again, no room for nuance. Those works are forced to fit in a binary, instead of people accepting the fact that even "progressive" works are often very problematic in their own ways. [quote]By comparison GG is a phenomenon in 2014 with discourse (especially on twitter) so completely backwards it would appall most of those early feminists. I don't know that you should be so lenient with the ugliness anyone can see by viewing replies on Zoe's tweets when it seems so terribly widespread.[/quote] But many feminists and progressives are working on trying to fix the discourse. We're actively encouraging good faith discussions and telling people to stop with the misogynistic harassment (see: my recent video & twitlong). I think you're giving the anti-SJ side way too much credit. There are a lot of feminists actively working within GG and the tag, and they're often quickly pushed aside. Because the nuance of GG's concerns are very difficult to fit into a narrative that creates a binary. [quote]Isn't that hugely concerning? People didn't stop being sexist, openly misogynist etc. because it's shitty but because Eron told them to. The common thread here and on /v/ seems to be that bringing up the five guys thing is bad because it'll 'make the movement look bad', not that it's morally abhorrent. When people are constrained not by a basic sense of decency but by a desire to look credible, that's when I think you have to ask if a movement is worth saving.[/QUOTE] Yes, but this isn't an isolated incident. The exact opposite happens regularly in the gaming industry - fake allies (often in positions of severe privilege) using SJ in order to prop themselves up and appear to be good allies, while not having any moral or ethical sense of necessity towards liberation. Where are their call out's? Oh yeah, they never will be called out - because outing abusers and posers among your own colleagues in the industry is grounds for your own termination. I agree, this is a bad way of looking at harassment. Harassment needs to stop because it's immoral, not because it "looks bad." BUT that doesn't mean various aspects of GG cannot be reclaimed. That doesn't mean all GG people are from 4chan. Many of us aren't. Many of us despise harassment, always have, always will, and GG just so happens to intersect in that regard with our own feminist concerns. And many GG people think harassment is bad because any form of harassment is bad, and they actively say so. 4chan is the catalyst here, but you're giving their control way too much credit. There is so much more going on.

[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;45907015]Max, I've on the 4chan threads often about this and most of the pictures Zoe uses to implicate 4chan in any of this are misleading. You can see the actual reactions to one of the "ABORT THE RAID" pictures here: [url]http://archive.moe/v/thread/261914337/#261916104[/url]. This post explains another tweet she made and how misleading it is as well: [url]http://kazerad.tumblr.com/post/96703506118/this-excerpt-from-a-4chan-post-really-sums-up-what[/url][/QUOTE] Context means nothing when you already have a conclusion

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;45906988]You're starting to threadshit. fuck off already![/QUOTE] "Starting to threadshit"? He threadshits all the time whenever SJWs or feminists are involved.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906622]whoops, looks like #gamergate and #notyourshield got exposed for what they really are...[/QUOTE] Max, look, we get it, you love being an attention whore who spews out dumb bullshit to get recognition because you're no longer relevant on this forum. You can stop now, nobody cares.

[thumb]http://i.imgur.com/MWJYwda.png[/thumb]

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906622]whoops, looks like #gamergate and #notyourshield got exposed for what they really are...[/QUOTE] Max, you [B]do[/B] know that there's a way to state your non-majority opinion on a subject [B]without[/B] pissing everyone off and being horribly ignorant, right? It's called doing your best to understand [I]both [/I]sides of the issue, and being polite when you decide to dispute the common opinion. Please give both a try sometime, for your own sake, and stop feverishly thread-shitting at any and all opportunities.

Isn't it amazing how a couple of little cuts and edits can drastically change the meaning of something? [img]http://i.imgur.com/YzJZHk0.jpg[/img]

I'm so glad Max isn't a mod anymore. I'm 100% sure he would have done everything in his power to censor anything that didn't confirm to his pro-SJW and anti-gamer views.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906675]Is that why they sit in a chatroom called "burgers and fries" and discuss how to hack into Zoe Quinn's stuff?[/QUOTE] you are literally a retard

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906788][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-45-00.png[/t] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3797350/hosting/2014-09/2014-09-06_16-45-21.png[/t] If [I]several [/I]weeks of IRC logs that show that the whole thing has been a 4chan raid operation from the start won't even sway you guys a little bit... If 4chan's reactions to the outing don't even cause you to second-guess what's actually going on... -images- If the fact that gamergate has harassed @jennatar over a footnote in a The Guardian article for not pointing out disclosure, [URL="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwyDjRNCUAAof2o.png"]even though The Guardian themselves were fine with it[/URL], doesn't make you think that a group that goes on a crusade against writers based on false speculation shouldn't be dictating "ethics" to anyone... Then I think you guys are the ones putting your claws in and refusing to let go. If you want to look at corruption in gaming, look at the "official" mags and lavish AAA PR junkets, [I]not some freelancers scraping by[/I]. Look at AAA editors offering free flights and hardware to game journalists, instead of indie developers and a Kotaku writer who didn't even write a review of DQ. Everything people in this have done is target people who have no real power, or huge salaries; they bullied out the lowest common denominator in the games industry in terms of power and influence. Great job.[/QUOTE] Nice tunnel vision Max, look at this kind of stuff then completely ignore the rest. Of course there are bad stuff on both sites but you can't judge the entire movement because of certain bad people, really.

Please Max, get your act together, right now you are a disgrace to the French people.

[QUOTE=Dermock;45907036]Why isn't max perma'd yet seriously he threadshits twice a week[/QUOTE] And then some... He'd do it more often if not for the 3 day bans in-between.

[QUOTE=Reimu;45907050]But, in academic and feminist settings, [b]both[/b] of those issues are quickly erased and sanitized. Doubly so when professors try to place Wolf and her work on a pedestal. Again, no room for nuance. Those works are forced to fit in a binary, instead of people accepting the fact that even "progressive" works are often very problematic in their own ways.[/QUOTE] It's certainly true that political feminism has often whitewashed older works - we can argue whether or not that's necessary for politics endlessly and I don't think we'd get very far, nor would it be especially relevant. Also, anecdotal but: my experience of studying Woolf at university wasn't the sanitized version you describe. Flicking back through my old notes I've found notes on [I]Woolf's Feminism and Feminism's Woolf[/I] by Laura Marcus which analyses the phenomenon of sanitizing you describe, and [I]Re-evaluating Woolf’s Androgynous Mind[/I] by Elizabeth Wright, which wonders if Woolf's idea of androgyny isn't just patriarchy by a different name. I think this is kind of a side issue to the GG thing so I didn't bother to dig further. Anyway: [QUOTE=Reimu;45907050] But many feminists and progressives are working on trying to fix the discourse. We're actively encouraging good faith discussions and telling people to stop with the misogynistic harassment (see: my recent video & twitlong). I think you're giving the anti-SJ side way too much credit. There are a lot of feminists actively working within GG and the tag, and they're often quickly pushed aside. Because the nuance of GG's concerns are very difficult to fit into a narrative that creates a binary. Yes, but this isn't an isolated incident. The exact opposite happens regularly in the gaming industry - fake allies (often in positions of severe privilege) using SJ in order to prop themselves up and appear to be good allies, while not having any moral or ethical sense of necessity towards liberation. Where are their call out's? Oh yeah, they never will be called out - because outing abusers and posers among your own colleagues in the industry is grounds for your own termination. I agree, this is a bad way of looking at harassment. Harassment needs to stop because it's immoral, not because it "looks bad." BUT that doesn't mean various aspects of GG cannot be reclaimed. That doesn't mean all GG people are from 4chan. Many of us aren't. Many of us despise harassment, always have, always will, and GG just so happens to intersect in that regard with our own feminist concerns. And many GG people think harassment is bad because any form of harassment is bad, and they actively say so. 4chan is the catalyst here, but you're giving their control way too much credit. There is so much more going on.[/QUOTE] (First: I would happily read/watch what you've written/recorded, but unless I'm blind there isn't a link in the last few pages.) I think it's certainly true that GG's concerns have been difficult to communicate, but I think you've hampered yourself there by choosing twitter as the dominant medium to express yourselves. It lends itself well to people shouting abuse and less so to nuanced critiques of journalism. Likewise, even if those concerns were well expressed I think it's very difficult to address them in the midst of this shitstorm. I think whatever the outcome of GG, we'll see a lot of journalists thinking about ethics, but only after they can be free of the concern of being called either an SJW by one side or a coward by the other. It's probably true that most of the discussion around GG hasn't been misogynist but the method of attack lends itself well to it. I mean, until now the dominant means of arguing has been bombarding journalists' personal twitters, demanding they resign, demanding they retract this or that statement. It's very easy in that scenario for either side to flame and ultimately I think even where the GG people have driven people out of videogames (so far, if I'm not mistaken it's been all women?) it hasn't resulted in the change they want. It's clear that there needs to be a change in culture, not in the personalities acting shadily. For that to happen, though, the mass-twitter campaigns need to cease (especially against individuals), thoughtful people need to take over the discussion, there needs to be some internal agreement between GG people as to what they want. As a final note: neither group is ideal, but I think I'd take 'fake allies' who at least recognize that you should be seen to support minorities over the reverse.

[QUOTE=Denicide;45907370]It's certainly true that political feminism has often whitewashed older works - we can argue whether or not that's necessary for politics endlessly and I don't think we'd get very far, nor would it be especially relevant. Also, anecdotal but: my experience of studying Woolf at university wasn't the sanitized version you describe. Flicking back through my old notes I've found notes on [I]Woolf's Feminism and Feminism's Woolf[/I] by Laura Marcus which analyses the phenomenon of sanitizing you describe, and [I]Re-evaluating Woolf’s Androgynous Mind[/I] by Elizabeth Wright, which wonders if Woolf's idea of androgyny isn't just patriarchy by a different name. I think this is kind of a side issue to the GG thing so I didn't bother to dig further. [/quote] That's true. It's not as if academia universally is unable to approach Woolf with an intersectional, nuanced lens. But it's still an overarching problem, especially in intro classes. Intersectional feminism is often seen as an "advanced" literary lens, not "basic" and "mandatory." [quote](First: I would happily read/watch what you've written/recorded, but unless I'm blind there isn't a link in the last few pages.)[/quote] Sure! Here's the youtube page for anyone who is interested. I also wrote about abuse in Social Justice, but that's not as relevant to the ramifications of abuse from GG ATM: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c5QAAZNDZU[/quote] [quote]I think it's certainly true that GG's concerns have been difficult to communicate, but I think you've hampered yourself there by choosing twitter as the dominant medium to express yourselves. It lends itself well to people shouting abuse and less so to nuanced critiques of journalism. Likewise, even if those concerns were well expressed I think it's very difficult to address them in the midst of this shitstorm. I think whatever the outcome of GG, we'll see a lot of journalists thinking about ethics, but only after they can be free of the concern of being called either an SJW by one side or a coward by the other. [/quote] I think one of the problems is that these concerns are so ridiculously easy to sweep aside. I do think a lot of gamers across aisles are concerned about nepotism, but I also think most gamers are willing to suspend disbelief if it means thinking the industry is nicer than it really is. Most people seem flat-out disgusted, and they'd rather take the blue pill if it means absolving themselves from fighting problems with ethics and nepotism in gaming. Especially the case when people try to move the goal posts into the AAA territory, which essentially tries to absolve the indie industry of any serious concerns. [quote]It's probably true that most of the discussion around GG hasn't been misogynist but the method of attack lends itself well to it. I mean, until now the dominant means of arguing has been bombarding journalists' personal twitters, demanding they resign, demanding they retract this or that statement.[/quote] Not exactly. The dominant form of resistance has actually been e-mailing advertisers and simply spreading information around. Most people don't even bother trying to argue with journalists, especially because it's easy to end up getting swamped in bad faith arguments and harassment from all sides. [quote]It's very easy in that scenario for either side to flame and ultimately I think even where the GG people have driven people out of videogames (so far, if I'm not mistaken it's been all women?)[/quote] Very valid concern, although the latter part isn't true. Phil Fish and Ouren are two examples: with Phil Fish driven out by gamers, Ouren a sexual harassment survivor silenced by his own devs. [quote]it hasn't resulted in the change they want. It's clear that there needs to be a change in culture, not in the personalities acting shadily. For that to happen, though, the mass-twitter campaigns need to cease (especially against individuals), thoughtful people need to take over the discussion, there needs to be some internal agreement between GG people as to what they want. As a final note: neither group is ideal, but I think I'd take 'fake allies' who at least recognize that you should be seen to support minorities over the reverse.[/QUOTE] Due to twitter's ability to spread information quickly, I think we all see it as a start. Twitlongs seem to be the best way to spread large amounts of nuanced information very quickly, which is why I often use them. True, it's not perfect, but I think there's a discussion starting that can be further teased out. But I think many people would rather simply play video games instead of being active in fixing video games. Also, the problem with fake allies is that they often lure vulnerable people into their comfort, then begin to abuse or manipulate them. Case in point: Maya Felix Kramer, who is a confessed misogynist and has sexually harassed women in the past. It's a real problem for industry workers, or virtually anyone that wants to approach these workers for solidarity in SJ. There are more abusers in the industry too that haven't even been outed yet, Zoe Quinn basically isn't an outlier in that regard. [editline]6th September 2014[/editline] That post won't let me edit it cause it's too long and Firefox is weird, here's the video: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c5QAAZNDZU[/media]

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45906685]Do you think the people creating sockpuppets accounts to pose as minorities in the gamergate tag have done anything to help you either?[/QUOTE] I love how they're sockpuppets even after posting an image of them holding proof unless they provide shit-tonnes of personal information about themselves. Wait, isn't that basically just the "misogynistic" term "tits or gtfo"?