Gun Control: Why it is Idiotic - General

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33815094]Problem with the "BUH BUH I NEED IT FOR SELF DEFENCE!" argument: using a gun for self defence counts as excessive force, and will get you a pretty hefty punishment.[/QUOTE] I'm not worried about a fine or a punishment if I ever have to shoot someone in self defense, I'm worried about ending a life. Even to save your own. For me owning a gun is to have fun, go shoot targets and make challenging shots and dare my friends to do the same, but to also be able to protect my family or myself if the need is to ever arise. I don't understand why everyone thinks gun nuts are trigger happy faggots who would shoot you dead at any given moment, there is a very serious moral and legal obligation to go through if you ever feel the need to end someones life in order to protect yourself or another.

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;33795265][B]Nope.[/B] Check the statistics before you start saying that. [/quote] Snipped for length, but basically my answer to all of this is what Contag said. Also, I mentioned the 1996 Port Authur event because, um, it was relevant? Our gun laws did change dramatically nation-wide after that event, so... yeah, it's relevant. You seem to think that I'm claiming that gun crime never ever occurs in Australia now, or that criminals never ever get their hands on guns, and both of those things are obviously not true. But my observation (perhaps I didn't make it well) was that there's not a huge gun culture over here, and that has a definite impact on gun crime. [editline]21st December 2011[/editline] Also lol does every single post by semite end up along the lines of, "I'm right, and if you don't see it you're retarded/can't read/autistic."? Like, actually, every single one?

[QUOTE=EagleEye;33815379]I'm not worried about a fine or a punishment if I ever have to shoot someone in self defense, I'm worried about ending a life. Even to save your own. For me owning a gun is to have fun, go shoot targets and make challenging shots and dare my friends to do the same, but to also be able to protect my family or myself if the need is to ever arise. I don't understand why everyone thinks gun nuts are trigger happy faggots who would shoot you dead at any given moment, there is a very serious moral and legal obligation to go through if you ever feel the need to end someones life in order to protect yourself or another.[/QUOTE] Because people like semite are the people that try so hard to defend the 2nd amendment.

[QUOTE=EagleEye;33815379]I'm not worried about a fine or a punishment if I ever have to shoot someone in self defense, I'm worried about ending a life.[/QUOTE] Not so sure you feel the same way about a sizeable prison sentence.

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33816024]Not so sure you feel the same way about a sizeable prison sentence.[/QUOTE] There is something wrong if your main concern about shooting someone is "boy oh boy, I'll go to prison if I kill this guy!" Also explain to me why I would go to jail for a proper self defense situation. Scenario: Walking in a shady part of town, suddenly a gentlemen approaches you, knife drawn and demands for your wallet and any valuables you may have. You tell him no, he takes a stab and you and stabs you. You take out your firearm and shoot him. He dies several minutes later when the police arrive. Why would the person being robbed go to prison? Are laws just different in England? Over here the victim would not go to prison, but would have to go to court most likely and prove that he had to kill the robber to save his life in order to rule out any foul play.

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33815094]Problem with the "BUH BUH I NEED IT FOR SELF DEFENCE!" argument: using a gun for self defence counts as excessive force, and will get you a pretty hefty punishment[/QUOTE] Maybe in Britain, and unfortunately also in Canada, but not in the US. From my understating, if someone poses a threat to your life you can shoot them as long as they're not running away.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;33816312]Maybe in Britain, and unfortunately also in Canada, but not in the US. From my understating, if someone poses a threat to your life you can shoot them as long as they're not running away.[/QUOTE] That would make a lot more sense. Over here you can shoot someone if they pose a clear and present danger to you, or another. Once they start running away or give up shooting them would be not only unlawful, but morally disgusting . You can also shoot someone if they break into your house if I remember correctly, but it only applies to states with castle laws in place.

I personally wouldn't feel safe knowing more or less everyone has a gun.

[QUOTE=Contag;33815328]That's pretty stupid. Does any other medication have that requirement?[/QUOTE] As far as I know it'll only apply to those with medicinal marijuana cards.

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33815094]Problem with the "BUH BUH I NEED IT FOR SELF DEFENCE!" argument: using a gun for self defence counts as excessive force, and will get you a pretty hefty punishment And you don't understand that the primary motivation for crime is poverty. Bravo.[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about your neighborhood pick-pocket. I mean big organized crime, Like drug dealers. [editline]20th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;33815131]not if the smuggler has to charge more because his job is harder, and his job can be made harder by making guns harder to get. people always say "if you make guns harder to get criminals will still get them on the black market" but seem to forget that a: the black market has to come from somewhere and b: it isn't some universal constant like the speed light in a vacuum; it can be hindered and impeded, reducing it's functionality[/QUOTE] Organized crime can still afford it. We have already explained one possible way to get the guns, and hindering still won't hurt it very much at all.

[QUOTE=EagleEye;33816304]Over here the victim would not go to prison, but would have to go to court most likely and prove that he had to kill the robber to save his life in order to rule out any foul play.[/QUOTE] I was under the impression they got "Justified Self Defense" and then got a sizeable prison sentence for it as it is murder. (Also, in that scenario you use a means of defence that isn't excessive force)

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33817708]I was under the impression they got "Justified Self Defense" and then got a sizeable prison sentence for it as it is murder. (Also, in that scenario you use a means of defence that isn't excessive force)[/QUOTE] No, it's not murder when it's self defence.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;33817732]No, it's not murder when it's self defence.[/QUOTE] Oh right. I forgot the American legal system made no fucking sense to the rest of the world.

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33817781]Oh right. I forgot the American legal system made no fucking sense to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] I think it does make sense that when someone dies while you defend yourself against that person, that it shouldn't be murder, just as long as it wasn't defending yourself with excessive force. Shooting someone because he breaks into your house should not be legally called self defense, just as bashing someones head in with a lead pipe should not be self defense.

[QUOTE=devotchkade;33815433]Snipped for length, but basically my answer to all of this is what Contag said. Also, I mentioned the 1996 Port Authur event because, um, it was relevant? Our gun laws did change dramatically nation-wide after that event, so... yeah, it's relevant. You seem to think that I'm claiming that gun crime never ever occurs in Australia now, or that criminals never ever get their hands on guns, and both of those things are obviously not true. But my observation (perhaps I didn't make it well) was that there's not a huge gun culture over here, and that has a definite impact on gun crime. [editline]21st December 2011[/editline] Also lol does every single post by semite end up along the lines of, "I'm right, and if you don't see it you're retarded/can't read/autistic."? Like, actually, every single one?[/QUOTE] When I said "im surprised you're referring to an incident that is a few years old" I was talking about your reference to the shootings in melbourne, for the exact reason that it doesn't exactly stand out from the armed violence that happens relatively commonly in the worse parts of sydney, not the port arthur massacre. Replying "what he said" is a poor argument especially considering what contag posted doesn't really gel with what you posted. You said gun control has made armed crime go down "[I]a lot[/I]" both the stastics i posted and the stastics contag posted show that gun control has had next to no impact on armed crime. As I said before, firearm related homicide has decreased at the same rate since 1986, well before any form of gun control was implemented in Australia, which suggests gun control has had no impact, i.e it hasn't done anything, good OR bad. With that taken into consideration, it means a lot of our money has been wasted on something that has had very little effect overall, money that could've been better spent on more realistic social and economical problems -> which would and does have a direct effect on crime Australia actually has a rather active gun culture, although if you live somewhere like Melbourne etc, you probably aren't exposed to it. , and sorry but you are wrong if you think gun culture has an impact on crime. If anything, "gun culture" influences people to be responsible about their firearms. Gun culture implies people who are interested and/or actively participate in gun advocacy, i.e citizens who legally own firearms and are interested in the responsible recreational or purposeful use of firearms. How they contribute greatly to crime, and how you come to that conclusion, I have no idea. Do CCW licensees in America contribute greatly to armed homicide?

In a gun riddled country like America gun control is not the right way to go. Concealed permits is genius.

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33815094]Problem with the "BUH BUH I NEED IT FOR SELF DEFENCE!" argument: using a gun for self defence counts as excessive force, and will get you a pretty hefty punishment [/QUOTE] Lol maybe in England where you get gang beaten by chavs and they get off with 1 hour community service. Jokes aside, in Canada and I'd think (I hope) in the UK if you feel your life is threatened or the lives of your loved ones you are sanctioned to use deadly force. Obviously its more detailed than that since it goes case by case but you get the idea [editline]21st December 2011[/editline] Also Canadians do have the right to defend their property/home

OP is Yosemite Sam.

[QUOTE=Turnips5;33706945] On topic, gun control has successfully reduced gun violence in the UK, as shown by statistics. Unfortunately, that gun violence has kinda been mostly replaced by knife violence. On the plus side, we have far fewer school shootings (think: when was the last time you even heard of a school/university shooting in the UK?). [/QUOTE] Why exactly does it matter what type of weapon is used to commit crime? The U.K.'s overall crime rate as a whole has spiraled out of fucking control and the only piece of logic the average citizen of the U.K. can fathom is, "well it's alright if we have ridiculous crime rates..as long as the crimes being committed aren't being committed with..God FORBID....A GUN". I'm sorry...I love the U.K., but the average British person is astoundingly incapable of utilizing simple logic. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=bye;33707973] gun control works great in australia, i love never seeing guns or having to worry about them.... gun lovers are fuckin idiots imo gun culture is a stain on society[/QUOTE] [img]http://theneweditor.com/uploads/ImpliedFacepalm.jpg[/img] [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;33708326] They do not make you safer, statistically.[/QUOTE] Your statistics are completely out of touch with reality. Let me tell you why. If you were to break into my house RIGHT now with the intent to kill me in order to secure my valuables (break ins/murders being a common occurrence in Albuquerque), I would have access to my Beretta 92fs within seconds, therefore allowing me to incapacitate/kill you therefore putting me in a safe, non-hostile environment. I know it may seem like I really dug down deep into what could've been a simple, short statement but your logic seems extremely flawed so I decided to break it down a bit. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Camundongo;33708700]No, we don't, and as far as I'm aware it's constantly falling as well. Admittedly, knife crime is a problem, though the rate violent crime as a whole is also falling, as far as I know.[/QUOTE] Perhaps you should've done a tad more research. It's kind of a well known fact that the crime rate in the U.K. is rampant and rising. You either refuse to invest a few minutes to research or you're aware of the facts but ignore them because they would anally rape your argument. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=joe588;33708887]sorry but people only like guns because of the power they feel.[/QUOTE] My God you're out of touch with reality. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers2;33709458]Source.[/QUOTE] You've gotta be fucking kidding me....Okay... Logic. Human Nature. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers2;33710227]Why do you think thieves carry guns? The same reason as you would carry one, for his own protection. If he doesn't have to protect himself from a gun, he doesn't need a gun. He is also far less likely to even think of getting a gun, as no one has one.[/QUOTE] Ok..so he for some reason decides to not have better odds on his victims and trashes the gun...the crime is still taking place. But hey..he's not using a gun to commit the crime so everything is super-fucking-duper. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ond kaja;33722487]Likewise, the best way to prevent crimes is not to equip everyone with a gun, but to eradicate poverty and social misery. Those who are pro-gun will often argue that it will still be easy to get a gun if you are a criminal. Well, if the amount of criminals in the society got reduced the production would follow, as the black market gets less customers. [/QUOTE] Ok. Tell us how to erradicate poverty and social misery completely. I'm waiting... [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;33751006]I'm not a huge fan of guns, I can accept them in necessary cases, but I don't want guns in my possesion, or anywhere near me. I don't care about the fact you were raised around them, just keep them away from me. [/QUOTE] Why. Last time I checked, firearms were inatimate objects. I can understand being afraid of spiders, nature, criminals and even teenage hooligans..but inatimate fucking objects are the one thing that give you a heart attack? [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Suff;33775308] I really have no reason to have a weapon. I have a phone to call the Authorities if I feel I'm in danger. [/QUOTE] HAHAHAHAHAHA...WOOOW. Let's not take any personal responsibility, for that would make us evil gun grabbing conservatives wouldn't it. Hey...just a little hint, guy: The "authorities" aren't your personal security guards.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;33857351] Ok. Tell us how to erradicate poverty and social misery completely. I'm waiting... [/QUOTE] I've already said how. Not my problem you chose to ignore that post.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;33857351] Ok..so he for some reason decides to not have better odds on his victims and trashes the gun...the crime is still taking place. But hey..he's not using a gun to commit the crime so everything is super-fucking-duper. [/quote] There's this thing called insurance. Why the fuck would you put YOURSELF in harms way, to protect some things that you'll get back a) if the thief gets caught or b) when your insurance pays out. Tell me this hmm? I'd rather let the thief take what he wants, then call the cops and let them deal with it, have my insurance pay out and all is fine.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;33859887]There's this thing called insurance. Why the fuck would you put YOURSELF in harms way, to protect some things that you'll get back a) if the thief gets caught or b) when your insurance pays out. Tell me this hmm? I'd rather let the thief take what he wants, then call the cops and let them deal with it, have my insurance pay out and all is fine.[/QUOTE] You don't realize how much of an asshole insurance companies are, do you? For one, seldom will you find personal theft insurance, and they're in it to make money, they don't want to pay out shit, and if they do, it's never cost, it's assumed/appraised value at time, meaning you won't be able to get it back, they don't pay you enough to be able to. Insurance and the police aren't some magical miracle-workers, and criminals aren't stupid, they'll sell shit fast to get cash, and you won't get your stuff back because the cops won't be able to find it.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;33860094]You don't realize how much of an asshole insurance companies are, do you? For one, seldom will you find personal theft insurance, and they're in it to make money, they don't want to pay out shit, and if they do, it's never cost, it's assumed/appraised value at time, meaning you won't be able to get it back, they don't pay you enough to be able to. Insurance and the police aren't some magical miracle-workers, and criminals aren't stupid, they'll sell shit fast to get cash, and you won't get your stuff back because the cops won't be able to find it.[/QUOTE] Because medical bills and years of rehabilitation are so much fun right :downs:

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;33859887]There's this thing called insurance. Why the fuck would you put YOURSELF in harms way, to protect some things that you'll get back a) if the thief gets caught or b) when your insurance pays out. Tell me this hmm? I'd rather let the thief take what he wants, then call the cops and let them deal with it, have my insurance pay out and all is fine.[/QUOTE] If he's in my house then I don't know his true intent and if he wants to harm me or not. I'd rather be safe than sorry

While I'll admit that yeah okay having a weapon in self defense is pretty useful, I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that guns are used more often for crime in America than then are for self defense/recreation (hunting and the like) but I'll throw these statistics out there, In the UK guns are heavily restricted/illegal. Here we have the deaths per year in the UK by gunshots: YEAR DEATHS 1997 198 1998 229 1999 207 2000 204 2001 193 2002 181 2003 187 2004 191 2005 185 2006 210 Source: [url]http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF07.htm[/url] all together that's just under 2000 deaths across 9 years across a whole country of millions of people, the US surpasses that upwards of 4 times as much in any single year mentioned. lets have a look at the exact stats for the US: [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg/800px-Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg.png[/img] and the ages for the people doing the shooting? [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Homoffendersbyage.svg/800px-Homoffendersbyage.svg.png[/img] Is that down to having easier access to guns to commit crimes? I think so...

[QUOTE=Aman VII;33863220]If he's in my house then I don't know his true intent and if he wants to harm me or not. I'd rather be safe than sorry[/QUOTE] Yeah, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'd rather NOT provoke the strange person in my house..

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;33863441]Yeah, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'd rather NOT provoke the strange person in my house..[/QUOTE] I'm not gonna provoke him guy, I'm gonna put a fucking 9x19 in his chest for endangering me and my family. It's called taking responsibility for the lives of you and your family instead of relying on a man at the local krispy creme who is just going to arrive to find you dead. I'm getting the odd feeling you're a liberal though so I don't expect you to know a damn thing about personal responsibility.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;33863874]I'm not gonna provoke him guy, I'm gonna put a fucking 9x19 in his chest for endangering me and my family. It's called taking responsibility for the lives of you and your family instead of relying on a man at the local krispy creme who is just going to arrive to find you dead. I'm getting the odd feeling you're a liberal though so I don't expect you to know a damn thing about personal responsibility.[/QUOTE] You think going for a gun is not provocative? Okay then, have fun getting shot! And I'm unfamiliar with that term, liberal, what do you mean by that?

[QUOTE=A Glitch;33863420]While I'll admit that yeah okay having a weapon in self defense is pretty useful, I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that guns are used more often for crime in America than then are for self defense/recreation [B](hunting and the like)[/B] [/QUOTE] Going to highlight that point to show just how fucking wrong you are. There are MILLIONS of people in America with a gun, MILLIONS, and the majority of those people are those who own a rifle or two and a couple of shotguns FOR HUNTING. There are literally millions of people in America who go hunting every year, I'd be willing to bet millions of Canadians do as well, what with the ~7 million registered long guns that exist in this country. The only sporting activity that guns would be used for more than hunting would be sport shooting. There is NO WAY in hell that ANYWHERE that allows hunting has more gun crime than people who hunt, that much would be next to impossible.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;33863957]You think going for a gun is not provocative? Okay then, have fun getting shot! And I'm unfamiliar with that term, liberal, what do you mean by that?[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter weather it's provocative or not..he's going to get shot no matter what if he's in my house.