Gun Control: Why it is Idiotic - General

[QUOTE=Mythman;34108931]Which one had the least tragic consequences? Which is more valuable? Human life or a car?[/QUOTE] But you see, criminals don't count as human beings and therefore we are free to murder every single one. This is literally the basis behind almost all gun control arguments (as well as the death penalty and nearly everything else conservatives fight for. coincidentally their definition of "criminal" is basically "poor person" and they ignore other far more harmful things such as corporate and white-collar crime.)

[QUOTE=sdwise;34105950] [b]It boils down to this: More people armed (with proper training, of course) = more people protected.[/b][/QUOTE] No, you're wrong. There is no way you can claim that. The reason is more likely that poverty is virtually non existent in Switzerland, thus there is no need for gun crime. Plus their military training. It has nothing what so ever to do with 'More people armed = more people protected', which is an absurd deduction. [editline]time[/editline] [quote]In addition to these official weapons, Swiss citizens are allowed to purchase surplus-to-inventory combat rifles, and shooting is a popular sport in all the Swiss cantons. These facts aside, some Swiss gun laws are more restrictive than those in the US. [b]Unlicensed persons are not permitted to carry weapons except under special certain circumstances such as travel to military training. Owners are legally responsible for third party access and usage of their weapons.[/b] Licensure is similar to other Germanic countries.[46] In a referendum in February 2011 voters rejected stricter gun control.[/quote] THAT is the reason for the low gun crime.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34091319]Source? [/QUOTE] You've gotta be ki.....are you seriously THAT out of touch with fucking reality?

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34111908]You've gotta be ki.....are you seriously THAT out of touch with fucking reality?[/QUOTE] No, you're the one claiming every single gang member owns a gun, asking for a source on that is perfectly valid.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34112474]No, you're the one claiming every single gang member owns a gun, asking for a source on that is perfectly valid.[/QUOTE] It was an expression...every gang member in albuquerque I know owns a firearm...most pf which are not legally obtained..

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34112903]It was an expression...every gang member in albuquerque I know owns a firearm...most pf which are not legally obtained..[/QUOTE] Anecdotal at best. You stated that all gang members own a gun, not to mention a specific one, so you'll need to share a source.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34110189]No, you're wrong. There is no way you can claim that. The reason is more likely that poverty is virtually non existent in Switzerland, thus there is no need for gun crime. Plus their military training. It has nothing what so ever to do with 'More people armed = more people protected', which is an absurd deduction.[/QUOTE] Do you know what they tell people who are in concealed carry training in the US? After they check your criminal and mental health history and you are in training, they say that the protection of the public falls on the carrier. If you are carrying concealed in the US and you see a gun crime of any kind being committed, you have been trained in an almost militaristic style to [b]protect your fellow man[/b], even if you don't make it out alive. It is that mentality and that kind of training that protects people. Ask yourself this: If teachers were allowed to carry concealed on campus, how long would Columbine have lasted? You have obviously never applied and trained for a concealed carry permit. If you had, you would understand.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34114723]Ask yourself this: If teachers were allowed to carry concealed on campus, how long would Columbine have lasted?[/QUOTE] Yes, escalation is always the answer.

[QUOTE=Chrille;34114858]Yes, escalation is always the answer.[/QUOTE] Would you [b]not[/b] have preferred someone put those jackasses to sleep? What about if someone is breaking into your house, threatening you and your property? You'd let him? Because I'd put him down. (In the US, at least) you have the right to protect your property, family, and yourself. If that means killing someone, then so be it.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34114723]Do you know what they tell people who are in concealed carry training in the US? After they check your criminal and mental health history and you are in training, they say that the protection of the public falls on the carrier. If you are carrying concealed in the US and you see a gun crime of any kind being committed, you have been trained in an almost [b]militaristic style to[/b] protect your fellow man, even if you don't make it out alive. It is that mentality and that kind of training that protects people. Ask yourself this: If teachers were allowed to carry concealed on campus, how long would Columbine have lasted? You have obviously never applied and trained for a concealed carry permit. If you had, you would understand.[/QUOTE] Yeah right, that's why even cops shoot their own colleagues in crossfire? This is beside the point, you don't need any training in most states in the US, and I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to carry guns at or near a school at all. And it isn't that mentality that protects people, it is that mentality that causes innocent bystanders to get kill in crossfire.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34115311]Yeah right, that's why even cops shoot their own colleagues in crossfire? This is beside the point, you don't need any training in most states in the US, and I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to carry guns at or near a school at all. And it isn't that mentality that protects people, it is that mentality that causes innocent bystanders to get kill in crossfire.[/QUOTE] The cop thing doesnt happen as often as you think, it's just all you hear about when it does. Like earthquakes. And you would let a madman have his rampage, then? How many more would die under your philosophy? And you are straight [b]wrong[/b] about it not requiring training to carry concealed. Just... pathetically wrong. And you're not allowed to carry on or near a school. What I was discussing was a [b]hypothetical[/b] situation for your consideration. Pay attention.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34114723] Ask yourself this: If teachers were allowed to carry concealed on campus, how long would Columbine have lasted? [/QUOTE] Ask yourself this: How many more might have died if the teachers did in fact have weapons and discharged them in any of the places where the two boys had been?

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34115479]Ask yourself this: How many more might have died if the teachers did in fact have weapons and discharged them in any of the places where the two boys had been?[/QUOTE] In concealed carry training you must prove your proficiency as a marksman. It's not as many as you think.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34115417]The cop thing doesnt happen as often as you think, it's just all you hear about when it does. Like earthquakes. And you would let a madman have his rampage, then? How many more would die under your philosophy? [b]And you are straight [b]wrong[/b] about it not requiring training to carry concealed. Just... pathetically wrong.[/b] And you're not allowed to carry on or near a school. What I was discussing was a [b]hypothetical[/b] situation for your consideration. Pay attention.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah? How am I wrong hmm?

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34115615]Oh yeah? How am I wrong hmm?[/QUOTE] YOU HAVE A MULTI WEEK TRAINING COURSE!!! It's a half classroom, half range course. You have to prove your proficiency as a marksman, or you get no permit. You have to pass the written portion or you get no permit. You have to renew every year or your permit expires. It is organized almost the [b]exact[/b] same way as a driver's license. Again, you obviously have never been involved in the process in [b]ANY[/b] way. If you had, you would get it.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34115808]YOU HAVE A MULTI WEEK TRAINING COURSE!!! It's a half classroom, half range course. You have to prove your proficiency as a marksman, or you get no permit. You have to pass the written portion or you get no permit. You have to renew every year or your permit expires. It is organized almost the [b]exact[/b] same way as a driver's license. Again, you obviously have never been involved in the process in [b]ANY[/b] way. If you had, you would get it.[/QUOTE] You have a one day, maybe a weekend training course, it is mostly classroom as the focus is on liability, and the renewal doesn't have to be every year, depends on the state. Saying it is organized almost the same as a drivers license doesn't help either. It isn't even mandatory in like 10 states.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34115886]You have a one day, maybe a weekend training course, it is mostly classroom as the focus is on liability, and the renewal doesn't have to be every year, depends on the state. Saying it is organized almost the same as a drivers license doesn't help either. It isn't even mandatory in like 10 states.[/QUOTE] I live in Texas. I know how it works here. I don't really care about other states do it because I know it's effective and safe the way it's done here.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34115886]You have a one day, maybe a weekend training course, it is mostly classroom as the focus is on liability, and the renewal doesn't have to be every year, depends on the state. Saying it is organized almost the same as a drivers license doesn't help either. It isn't even mandatory in like 10 states.[/QUOTE] You seem to be really terrified of CC but how many crimes were committed by someone who had a legal CC that you can point out? How many potential crimes were averted because of someone CCing? I bet one drastically outweighs the other

[QUOTE=sdwise;34115138]Would you [b]not[/b] have preferred someone put those jackasses to sleep? What about if someone is breaking into your house, threatening you and your property? You'd let him? Because I'd put him down. (In the US, at least) you have the right to protect your property, family, and yourself. If that means killing someone, then so be it.[/QUOTE] How does having teachers carrying guns at school equate to having guns in your home? [editline]8th January 2012[/editline] And I'm not against everybody having guns, per se. Switzerland is doing it and their gun-crime statistics look a lot better than those of the US. The problem with the US is their gun-culture, and by extension of that, the fact that some people (including you) believe that everybody owning a gun is the solution to everything. Get a grip. Teachers carrying guns in a school is the most deluded thing I have ever heard.

[QUOTE=Chrille;34116903]How does having teachers carrying guns at school equate to having guns in your home? [editline]8th January 2012[/editline] And I'm not against everybody having guns, per se. Switzerland is doing it and their gun-crime statistics look a lot better than those of the US. The problem with the US is their gun-culture, and by extension of that, the fact that some people (including you) believe that everybody owning a gun is the solution to everything. Get a grip. Teachers carrying guns in a school is the most deluded thing I have ever heard.[/QUOTE] You misunderstand me. I'm talking about protection of the public here and nothing else.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34116148]I live in Texas. I know how it works here. I don't really care about other states do it because I know it's effective and safe the way it's done here.[/QUOTE] :rolleyes: [editline]9th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Aman VII;34116604]You seem to be really terrified of CC but how many crimes were committed by someone who had a legal CC that you can point out? How many potential crimes were averted because of someone CCing? I bet one drastically outweighs the other[/QUOTE] What makes you think that? I'm simply saying that he is not correct.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34113589]Anecdotal at best. You stated that all gang members own a gun, not to mention a specific one, so you'll need to share a source.[/QUOTE] Yes..in response to a poster saying if there were no gun control every gang member would have a Glock.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34115886]You have a one day, maybe a weekend training course, it is mostly classroom as the focus is on liability, and the renewal doesn't have to be every year, depends on the state. Saying it is organized almost the same as a drivers license doesn't help either. It isn't even mandatory in like 10 states.[/QUOTE] I'd also add in the states you have to fill out paper work and submit it your local sheriff and then get your fingers printed and then pay a tax/fee. I think the whole CC laws are actually quite fantastic.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34119629]:rolleyes: [editline]9th January 2012[/editline] What makes you think that? I'm simply saying that he is not correct.[/QUOTE] And how the fuck would you know? Have you lived in Texas, or even the US? How would you know better than a native of the region how their laws on CC work? How can you tell him he's wrong if you don't live there too, if you haven't been through the process as well to KNOW it's wrong, rather than to merely assume based off the stereotypes of America or the possible lax nature of other States, all of which I know require the permission of at least your local sheriff before you can apply for a CC permit, and all of which require you be 21.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;34171573]And how the fuck would you know? Have you lived in Texas, or even the US? How would you know better than a native of the region how their laws on CC work? How can you tell him he's wrong if you don't live there too, if you haven't been through the process as well to KNOW it's wrong, rather than to merely assume based off the stereotypes of America or the possible lax nature of other States, all of which I know require the permission of at least your local sheriff before you can apply for a CC permit, and all of which require you be 21.[/QUOTE] I know this because I did some actual fucking research instead of going 'hurr durr it's like this in my state so it must be like this in the rest of the country and if someone tells me that it isn't I'm just gonna go meh I don't care about the rest of the country I only care about my state'.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34171786]I know this because I did some actual fucking research instead of going 'hurr durr it's like this in my state so it must be like this in the rest of the country and if someone tells me that it isn't I'm just gonna go meh I don't care about the rest of the country I only care about my state'.[/QUOTE] Says the guy who's country doesn't even allow guns for home defense. And don't you give the police the right to enter your home once a year and verify that your guns are locked in a safe? The correct answers are "yes." And you can't deny that. My Ex-Girlfriend's Dad is a Dutch native. Hemmo Bosscher. [URL=http://www.lubbockpaindoc.com/]His business's website[/URL]. Google him if you don't believe me, he's fucking everywhere. And look, you misunderstand what I meant about living in and caring about Texas' laws. What I'm arguing for is a system that works the way Texas' does. Proper training, proof of proficiency as a marksman, and numerous renewals of licenses.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34172097]Says the guy who's country doesn't even allow guns for home defense. And don't you give the police the right to enter your home once a year and verify that your guns are locked in a safe? The correct answers are "yes." And you can't deny that. My Ex-Girlfriend's Dad is a Dutch native. Hemmo Bosscher. [URL=http://www.lubbockpaindoc.com/]His business's website[/URL]. Google him if you don't believe me, he's fucking everywhere. And look, you misunderstand what I meant about living in and caring about Texas' laws. What I'm arguing for is a system that works the way Texas' does. Proper training, proof of proficiency as a marksman, and numerous renewals of licenses.[/QUOTE] You never said that before.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;34172283]You never said that before.[/QUOTE] I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. What I was getting at was using the federalist system for what it's [i]supposed[/i] to be used for. The states are meant to be laboratories to see what may or may not work on a federal level, while simultaneously retaining an amount of sovereignty. Gun laws, however, are meant to be controlled by the states alone, as explained by the Tenth Amendment. A lot of American's don't even get this concept. So what I was arguing for was other state's adoption CC laws similar to those of Texas. I don't disregard other state's systems, I just think Texas has one of the most successful systems where gun control is concerned.

[QUOTE=sdwise;34172470]I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. What I was getting at was using the federalist system for what it's [i]supposed[/i] to be used for. The states are meant to be laboratories to see what may or may not work on a federal level, while simultaneously retaining an amount of sovereignty. Gun laws, however, are meant to be controlled by the states alone, as explained by the Tenth Amendment. A lot of American's don't even get this concept. So what I was arguing for was other state's adoption CC laws similar to those of Texas. I don't disregard other state's systems, I just think Texas has one of the most successful systems where gun control is concerned.[/QUOTE] Then I agree, from what you said it does sound like Texas has one of the best systems in place. I still disagree with CC in general though.

[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;33708078]That's the problem with places that teach their citizens about how bad guns are from an early age. They're basically brainwashed into thinking that places that allow guns are basically a violent hell on Earth. I've never "worried" about guns and I've never known anyone in my life to be negatively affected by guns yet everyone I know owns at least one. Unless you live in a bad area, it's really a non-issue.[/QUOTE] Loving the facts there. Sweden has gun control. Not once have I been told that the U.S is basically a violent hell on earth. Although, in some ways, it really is. I'd rather not have guns easily accessible, obviously, if you know where to go. You can always get one, here in Sweden as well. Obviously, the crimes that are committed are not the product of guns, they are the product of individuals. Guns however, make it a whole lot easier. I can't help but bring up school shootings. Imagine if they didn't have guns, I'm sure a lot less people would have died. If any. I don't really care that much about the U.S though, I think it's pretty fucked up, and I doubt it will ever come back.