[QUOTE=laserpanda;51594766]The Listerine one was pretty cringeworthy as well, where he tried to argue that Listerine "created bad breath" because they were good at marketing.[/QUOTE]
This is such an easy thing to check. That wasn't what his point was at all. His point was that Listerine made people think they had bad breath, not that they created it.
A slight refrain from the video, but honestly I see the value of a parallel hybrid over a pure EV or ICE any day.
The flexibility of fuel sources and redundancy of two parallel motors just seems alot more appealing than putting all my eggs into one basket.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51595518]USA - so rich... cant really put it to words, but too poor to buy buses for a fucking city. That is no town, 380k is a city.
As a non-driver If I ever had to live in America I think I just couldnt.[/QUOTE]
In the US it makes more sense to have a car since the distances are greater than over here, and since more people have cars it makes less sense for cities to run public transport.
But yeah a 380k town not having anything is bananas. Pretty much every village here has at least two bus stops, I lived in one like that with a population of 300, a commuter bus from the nearest town would come three times a day and ferry you between the stops for free :downs:
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51595687]Look at this real time map, at least Europeans:
[url]http://electricitymap.tmrow.co/[/url]
In average, one kilometer of Diesel trip emits ~[URL="https://www.neste.com/sites/default/files/attachments/neste_renewable_diesel_handbook.pdf"]145 [/URL] (page 30) gCO2eq.
A Tesla makes ~[URL="https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/how-many-kms-can-tesla-model-s-2013-travel-1-kwh"]3.88[/URL] miles per kWh. So divide the goven CO2 emission rates on the map and divide with 3.88 and compare with Diesel.
Anything higher than 562.6, then in that country Diesel is greener than Tesla.
I am sure I made an error above, I am no expert after all, feel free to correct me.
But If I am correct, in countries like Ireland, Germany and Czech Republic driving a Tesla would make very negligible difference, and in Poland and Estonia itd actually hurt.
If what I made here makes sense, then if anyone can find gCO2eq per kWh for USA per state basis, it would be very nice. I couldnt.
TBH [URL="https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Tesla-supercharger-get-its-source-of-energy-today"]here [/URL]it says: (first answer)
And [URL="https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/are-all-superchargers-solarpowered"]this [/URL]but from 2014.
[editline]29th December 2016[/editline]
The priority in superchargers isnt grid independence, but extensive coverage, so solar powered chargers seem negligible. Cant really comment though since I couldnt find stats on how much of the chargers are in fact solar powered, and where they are. Hard to see solar powered ones in low-sunshine areas.[/QUOTE]
You're comparing a Tesla, a massive sedan against the "average mid-sized" car here. A comparable car would be something like a Mercedes S class, which gets about 30 MPG.
So 20 lbs of CO2 per 30 miles (assuming regular petrol rather than diesel in this case, not factoring in transport) would mean at 317 Wh/mile you would need the grid to be at 953.93 grams of Co2 per kWh or worse for the Tesla to match a comparable car. If we look at a diesel S class it gets 50 mpg (claimed) so at 22.38 lbs per 50 miles you're looking at 640.47 grams of Co2 per kWh, and then you aren't factoring in the negative effects on the local population's health caused by the diesel car.
Genuinely expected this thread to be bashing EVs pretty hard, pleasantly surprised to see people not taking this at face value.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51595687]Look at this real time map, at least Europeans:
[url]http://electricitymap.tmrow.co/[/url]
In average, one kilometer of Diesel trip emits ~[URL="https://www.neste.com/sites/default/files/attachments/neste_renewable_diesel_handbook.pdf"]145 [/URL] (page 30) gCO2eq.
A Tesla makes ~[URL="https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/how-many-kms-can-tesla-model-s-2013-travel-1-kwh"]3.88[/URL] miles per kWh. So divide the goven CO2 emission rates on the map and divide with 3.88 and compare with Diesel.
Anything higher than 562.6, then in that country Diesel is greener than Tesla.
I am sure I made an error above, I am no expert after all, feel free to correct me.
But If I am correct, in countries like Ireland, Germany and Czech Republic driving a Tesla would make very negligible difference, and in Poland and Estonia itd actually hurt.
If what I made here makes sense, then if anyone can find gCO2eq per kWh for USA per state basis, it would be very nice. I couldnt.
TBH [URL="https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Tesla-supercharger-get-its-source-of-energy-today"]here [/URL]it says: (first answer)
And [URL="https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/are-all-superchargers-solarpowered"]this [/URL]but from 2014.
[editline]29th December 2016[/editline]
The priority in superchargers isnt grid independence, but extensive coverage, so solar powered chargers seem negligible. Cant really comment though since I couldnt find stats on how much of the chargers are in fact solar powered, and where they are. Hard to see solar powered ones in low-sunshine areas.[/QUOTE]
I'm on a mobile right now, so it's a bit of hassle to check out your document, but does it include the energy used in the refinery process? I had a similar discussion maybe a year ago about gasoline, and it turns out that if you ignore the energy used to refine gasoline, it's basically a toss-up, but if you include it, electric cars win out clearly. Don't know if the same applies to diesel, though.
Adam isn't even that funny, Roger is much better:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmQE4qdb9fg&list=PL_saLI-LH-Vp9cxB3FNJoYXZXRM93UBuf&index=20[/media]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51596960]Actually a mid size car averages 21 in the city and 27 on the highway in USA according to wikipedia[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Fuel_efficiency_of_motor_vehicles"] Fuel Economy[/URL] page so a Sedan would be more efficient, so less than 562.6, way less than your 953.93, so either you or me are making an error here.
If Im not making an error, the Sedan travels 30 miles for the same diesel as the 25 miles of midsize car on average, so it burns 145 * 25/30 = 120,83 gCO2eq of Diesel per mile, and Tesla makes 3,88 miles per kWh, so for grid, each kWh needs to burn 3,88*120,83= 468,82 gCO2eq/kWh. Pushes Germany and Czech Republic down.
Yes, the bar is divided into two and a small part is called "fuel production" and total is 145[/QUOTE]
No source seems to be cited for Wikipedia's fuel economy figures? But we can look at the average for new vehicles up to 2014 here: [url]http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html[/url]
If you take a new domestic passenger car from 2014 that gets 36.7 MPG then you get the following figures:
It doesn't state if it's for diesel or petrol cars. I would guess it's probably a general average rather than one or the other though. But i'll show both.
1 gallon of gasoline = 19.64 lbs (8908.5541 grams) of Co2
1 gallon of diesel = 22.38 lbs (10151.397 grams) of Co2
350 Wh/mile on an EV ([URL="http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38172&id=38500&id=38187"]Tesla Model S P100D EPA rating[/URL]) gives us 12.85 kWh for 36.7 miles.
How bad does the grid need to be for 12.85 kWh to produce more than the gasoline or diesel car that can do?
To put out 8908.5541 grams of Co2 from 12.85 kWh you would need the grid to be at 693.2726926070039 (8908.5541 / 12.85) grams of Co2 per kWh.
To put out 10151.397 grams of Co2 from 12.85 kWh you would need the grid to be at 789.9919844357977 (10151.397 / 12.85) grams of Co2 per kWh.
The average Domestic passenger car is more than likely much smaller than the Model S as well. If you look at a smaller and slower EV like the Chevy Bolt then you're looking at only 280 Wh/Mile, which would push the figure to match the above gasoline figure up to 866 grams of CO2 per kWh.
[QUOTE=laserpanda;51594766]The Listerine one was pretty cringeworthy as well, where he tried to argue that Listerine "created bad breath" because they were good at marketing.[/QUOTE]
Not sure I agree with that, it was more that the creators of Listerine made halitosis seem like a much worse, widespread problem than it really is.
I think the series has a tendency to embellish and sensationalize, and it frequently detracts from the argument as a whole, though.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51597399]No source seems to be cited for Wikipedia's fuel economy figures? But we can look at the average for new vehicles up to 2014 here: [url]http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html[/url]
If you take a new domestic passenger car from 2014 that gets 36.7 MPG then you get the following figures:
It doesn't state if it's for diesel or petrol cars. I would guess it's probably a general average rather than one or the other though. But i'll show both.
1 gallon of gasoline = 19.64 lbs (8908.5541 grams) of Co2
1 gallon of diesel = 22.38 lbs (10151.397 grams) of Co2
350 Wh/mile on an EV ([URL="http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38172&id=38500&id=38187"]Tesla Model S P100D EPA rating[/URL]) gives us 12.85 kWh for 36.7 miles.
How bad does the grid need to be for 12.85 kWh to produce more than the gasoline or diesel car that can do?
To put out 8908.5541 grams of Co2 from 12.85 kWh you would need the grid to be at 693.2726926070039 (8908.5541 / 12.85) grams of Co2 per kWh.
To put out 10151.397 grams of Co2 from 12.85 kWh you would need the grid to be at 789.9919844357977 (10151.397 / 12.85) grams of Co2 per kWh.
The average Domestic passenger car is more than likely much smaller than the Model S as well. If you look at a smaller and slower EV like the Chevy Bolt then you're looking at only 280 Wh/Mile, which would push the figure to match the above gasoline figure up to 866 grams of CO2 per kWh.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it'll ruin the whole calculation, but you kinda have to add the power lost during charging to be thorough. It's probably not completely insignificant.
Anyway, if and when the power gets to 100% renewable/fission/fusion/whatever, having electric cars will be unequivocally better.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51597991]I don't think it'll ruin the whole calculation, but you kinda have to add the power lost during charging to be thorough. It's probably not completely insignificant.
Anyway, if and when the power gets to 100% renewable/fission/fusion/whatever, having electric cars will be unequivocally better.[/QUOTE]
The EPA rating supposedly takes charging losses into account.
Really like this segment, but I can't help but feel he's missed the mark with this one.
Honestly I'd bet buying used, even an old polluting car, is better for the environment than buying new and creating demand for a new car.
[QUOTE=patq911;51600412]Honestly I'd bet buying used, even an old polluting car, is better for the environment than buying new and creating demand for a new car.[/QUOTE]
It all depends on how long and how much you use your car. At some point the difference is going to outweigh the initial effect of producing the car.
Honestly I think a carbon spike from everyone adopting EVs at once is going to be quickly offset by the fact that nobody is driving gas guzzlers anymore. It's a much-needed revolution and the faster we pull it off the better for us.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;51597542]I think the series has a tendency to embellish and sensationalize, and it frequently detracts from the argument as a whole, though.[/QUOTE]
I think that might be an unfortunate side effect of being an American television programme.
[QUOTE=Drury;51600822]Honestly I think a carbon spike from everyone adopting EVs at once is going to be quickly offset by the fact that nobody is driving gas guzzlers anymore. It's a much-needed revolution and the faster we pull it off the better for us.[/QUOTE]
The basic point here is that buying a new car will produce a very large amount of pollution. If you're buying a new car early, on average it will mean that more cars will be bought in total because your new car will fail before it would have done if bought later, therefore you should wait to buy a new car until you would otherwise replace your current one.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;51611100]The basic point here is that buying a new car will produce a very large amount of pollution. If you're buying a new car early, on average it will mean that more cars will be bought in total because your new car will fail before it would have done if bought later, therefore you should wait to buy a new car until you would otherwise replace your current one.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's what I mean by "carbon spike"
I don't think it's going to be a huge issue in the long run.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;51593848]If I had the money to buy a new car every year why wouldn't I[/QUOTE]
Because you could invest that same money in to doing actually productive things. I mean you don't have to if you really love cars but cars do not expire after 1 year.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;51594000]I'm so sick of Adam ruins everything.[/QUOTE]
I am looking forward to when Adam ruins Adam.
[QUOTE=GunFox;51593781]Not to mention the lifespan of an electric car is crazy huge.[/QUOTE]
It seems Tesla cars require often replacements of battery packs and power train components. While combustion cars easily get beyond 200,000 miles without anything as serious as the equivalent engine swap or transmission swap.
[QUOTE=duno;51612402]It seems Tesla cars require often replacements of battery packs and power train components. While combustion cars easily get beyond 200,000 miles without anything as serious as the equivalent engine swap or transmission swap.[/QUOTE]
How often are we talking
[QUOTE=duno;51612402]It seems Tesla cars require often replacements of battery packs and power train components. While combustion cars easily get beyond 200,000 miles without anything as serious as the equivalent engine swap or transmission swap.[/QUOTE]
Yes, many of the old drivetrains had problems in the Model S. This is however to expect with new tech and they have all been covered by the warrenty.
In fact, all current Teslas have a 8 year unlimited mile warranty on both battery and drive unit.
And currently Tesla actually WANTS your old, beat up battery if it misbehaves, as that is a cheap expense to offer a new battery, for the value of the tests they can run on it.
I see the value of a parallel hybrid over the rest of the cars it would be a better choice.
[QUOTE=RedPowder;51613885]I see the value of a parallel hybrid over the rest of the cars it would be a better choice.[/QUOTE]
Modern hybrids are super efficient, they don't really use a conventional transmission- the wheels are not mechanically connected to the engine except when at highway speeds. Just look at the 2014-2017 Accords. They get 47 MPG compared to the 36 of a normal ICE Accord. Although, still nowhere near as efficient as a direct-drive EV.
[QUOTE=Drury;51611210]Yeah that's what I mean by "carbon spike"
I don't think it's going to be a huge issue in the long run.[/QUOTE]
It will net increase the amount of carbon released into the atmosphere when we should be aiming to minimise it, the solution to which will be basically a function of the efficiency of the cars, the grid, manufacturing processes and the point at which continuing to drive the car therefore starts to be economically or environmentally less efficient than replacing it with a new electric car. I totally support buying electric cars but throwing away a perfectly good and reasonably efficient car early will harm the environment.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51595687]Look at this real time map, at least Europeans:
[url]http://electricitymap.tmrow.co/[/url]
In average, one kilometer of Diesel trip emits ~[URL="https://www.neste.com/sites/default/files/attachments/neste_renewable_diesel_handbook.pdf"]145 [/URL] (page 30) gCO2eq.
A Tesla makes ~[URL="https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/how-many-kms-can-tesla-model-s-2013-travel-1-kwh"]3.88[/URL] miles per kWh. So divide the goven CO2 emission rates on the map and divide with 3.88 and compare with Diesel.
Anything higher than 562.6, then in that country Diesel is greener than Tesla.
I am sure I made an error above, I am no expert after all, feel free to correct me.
But If I am correct, in countries like Ireland, Germany and Czech Republic driving a Tesla would make very negligible difference, and in Poland and Estonia itd actually hurt.
If what I made here makes sense, then if anyone can find gCO2eq per kWh for USA per state basis, it would be very nice. I couldnt.
TBH [URL="https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Tesla-supercharger-get-its-source-of-energy-today"]here [/URL]it says: (first answer)
And [URL="https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/are-all-superchargers-solarpowered"]this [/URL]but from 2014.
[editline]29th December 2016[/editline]
The priority in superchargers isnt grid independence, but extensive coverage, so solar powered chargers seem negligible. Cant really comment though since I couldnt find stats on how much of the chargers are in fact solar powered, and where they are. Hard to see solar powered ones in low-sunshine areas.[/QUOTE]
I saw them on italian highway stations quite often recently
[QUOTE=AGMadsAG;51613147]Yes, many of the old drivetrains had problems in the Model S. This is however to expect with new tech and they have all been covered by the warrenty.
In fact, all current Teslas have a 8 year unlimited mile warranty on both battery and drive unit.
And currently Tesla actually WANTS your old, beat up battery if it misbehaves, as that is a cheap expense to offer a new battery, for the value of the tests they can run on it.[/QUOTE]
A good car is not one that needs a solid warranty and constant repair from the manufacturer. This is a band aid and Tesla does it to hide the notorious unreliability of both the drive train and the battery.
this video just seems like fuel for the pompous
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
