[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463072]evidence is more subjective than you think.
maybe you should consider that maybe you have too much faith in science?
you never experienced the birth of the universe, how do you know that the God Christianity or Islam or any other religion describes, didn't create it?[/QUOTE]
Assuming they did that, what created them?
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463072]evidence is more subjective than you think.[/QUOTE]
No.
Faith and science are two different things. You can't have faith in science the same you way you have faith in god.
[QUOTE=Comrade General;22462951]Dude it will only be on the day of the apocalypse. Besides. They WILL be praying and i WILL be laughing. Infact i'll probably be burning things aswell. Lots of things. Because come on, who wouldn't just do what they wanted to on the day of the apocalypse?[/QUOTE]
Funny thing is, the word "Apocalypse" stems from the greek word for "lifting of the veil" or "revelation". Stemming from religeon.
[editline]03:42PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;22463132]Assuming they did that, what created them?[/QUOTE]
Well, the argument of Christians is that god has always been there. Always, like infinity in both directions.
Same way that what was there before the big bang would have been hanging around for ages, I mean... what created it? What sparked it?
It's a debate that will never be settled.
The reason why most believe is that they were raised that way. Simple as that. Much of apologia is basically trying to find excuses to keep thinking that way when they start feeling uncertain. An excuse to not think about it.
[QUOTE=wewt!;22463147]No.
Faith and science are two different things. You can't have faith in science the same you way you have faith in god.[/QUOTE]
Why not? There's a degree of faith in everything you believe in the whole world. We all take for granted that the world is spherical. We've seen images and we've seen the horizon, but there could be an infinite number of explanations for those. What if this is just a simulation? What I'm saying is, don't take anything for granted.
you're acting like people suddenly started worshiping him
[QUOTE=robowurmz;22463243]
Well, the argument of Christians is that god has always been there. Always, like infinity in both directions.
Same way that what was there before the big bang would have been hanging around for ages, I mean... what created it? What sparked it?
It's a debate that will never be settled.[/QUOTE]
And my counter-argument to that is that if some things can be infinite, as they are suggesting God is, why can't it just be the universe?
Facepunch recently seems to be full of kids posting their obvious realisations everyone gets as they grow up.
P.S. This isn't a problem once you understand god isn't real.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463386]Why not? There's a degree of faith in everything you believe in the whole world. We all take for granted that the world is spherical. We've seen images and we've seen the horizon, but there could be an infinite number of explanations for those. What if this is just a simulation? What I'm saying is, don't take anything for granted.[/QUOTE]
That's missing the point, you can't have faith in god the same way you have faith in science. If there's an afterlife, then we'll probably find out many things when we get there. Untill then, look at things as how they are, not how they might be.
Bible tl;dr God is a nice, happy, angry, cruel guy in heaven who loves you.
[QUOTE=wewt!;22463669]That's missing the point, you can't have faith in god the same way you have faith in science. If there's an afterlife, then we'll probably find out many things when we get there. Untill then, look at things as how they are, not how they might be.[/QUOTE]
Fine. In that case, I don't believe that any of the whole universe exists outside of the West Midlands and the various other parts of the world I've been in.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463729]Fine. In that case, I don't believe that any of the whole universe exists outside of the West Midlands and the various other parts of the world I've been in.[/QUOTE]
If you're not willing to argue like a grown up, don't argue at all.
Seeing something with your own eyes is not the only way of observing something.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463729]Fine. In that case, I don't believe that any of the whole universe exists outside of the West Midlands and the various other parts of the world I've been in.[/QUOTE]
If that is the extent of your education, then so be it.
Also, ''look at things as they are, not as they might be'' does not mean ''only the things you see exist''
[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;22463852]If you're not willing to argue like a grown up, don't argue at all.
Seeing something with your own eyes is not the only way of observing something.[/QUOTE]
you don't get the point I'm trying to make.
you're all so stuck in your "RELIGION IS WRONG SCIENCE IS RIGHT" mode of thought you can't open your eyes to how very little we actually know about the world.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463890]you don't get the point I'm trying to make.
you're all so stuck in your "RELIGION IS WRONG SCIENCE IS RIGHT" mode of thought you can't open your eyes to how very little we actually know about the world.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that. I think it's two separate things.
You seem to be so stuck in you ''RELIGION IS RIGHT'' mode you don't even know what arguements we're making.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463890]you don't get the point I'm trying to make.
you're all so stuck in your "RELIGION IS WRONG SCIENCE IS RIGHT" mode of thought you can't open your eyes to how very little we actually know about the world.[/QUOTE]
It's not Religion is wrong, science is right that's the typical facepunch attitude, it's more "I'M RIGHT, ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS AN IDIOT AND DESERVED TO DIE".
[QUOTE=wewt!;22463923]I don't think that. I think it's two separate things.
You seem to be so stuck in you ''RELIGION IS RIGHT'' mode you don't even know what arguements we're making.[/QUOTE]
fun fact: I am not - nor have I ever - been part of a religion.
Science is right about everything that it knows about.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463890]you don't get the point I'm trying to make.
you're all so stuck in your "RELIGION IS WRONG SCIENCE IS RIGHT" mode of thought you can't open your eyes to how very little we actually know about the world.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding me?
If I had to sum up the overall stance of science on anything it would be "We don't know."
That is how science works.
Religions works by going "We don't know, but.."
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22463957]fun fact: I am not - nor have I ever - been part of a religion.[/QUOTE]
In that case you simply don't know what arguements we are making. So you're not biased, you just have bad reading skills.
[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;22464010]If I had to sum up the overall stance of science on anything it would be "We don't know."
That is how science works.
Religions works by going "We don't know, but.."[/QUOTE]
I like this quote.
That's not how a great deal of atheists think, though, is it?
[editline]04:26PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=wewt!;22464018]In that case you simply don't know what arguements we are making. So you're not biased, you just have bad reading skills.[/QUOTE]
You mean to imply that everyone who isn't religious should all gang up and tell those dirty religious scumbags what's what?
The reason it seems like I'm arguing against you is that I don't think it's right to accept one kind of faith over any other. Science, to me, seems to be more credible than religion, but that doesn't mean we should go out of our way to dismiss religious people and everything they believe in.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22464110]I like this quote.
That's not how a great deal of atheists think, though, is it?[/QUOTE]
You're generalizing. I don't know how other atheists think, I just know how I think, and how scientists (are supposed to) think.
[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;22464223]You're generalizing. I don't know how other atheists think, I just know how I think, and how scientists (are supposed to) think.[/QUOTE]
you're right, I was generalising and I shouldn't have. but let's face it, the majority of facepunch seem to be closed minded to anything but their science books.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22464110]You mean to imply that everyone who isn't religious should all gang up and tell those dirty religious scumbags what's what?
The reason it seems like I'm arguing against you is that I don't think it's right to accept one kind of faith over any other. Science, to me, seems to be more credible than religion, but that doesn't mean we should go out of our way to dismiss religious people and everything they believe in.[/QUOTE]
What I'm arguing is that science is separate from faith and religion, I have never said or implied anything about how we are superior in any way to religious people.
When someone says ''I have faith in science'' it's not the same as ''I have faith in God'', since science is real wether you have faith in it or not. The existence of God would not make science invalid.
[editline]03:34PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22464262]you're right, I was generalising and I shouldn't have. but let's face it, the majority of facepunch seem to be closed minded to anything but their science books.[/QUOTE]
Nope, I'm seeing more and more accepting atheists on FP, although curiously less and less in real life.
[QUOTE=wewt!;22464290]What I'm arguing is that science is separate from faith and religion, I have never said or implied anything about how we are superior in any way to religious people.
When someone says ''I have faith in science'' it's not the same as ''I have faith in God'', since science is real wether you have faith in it or not. The existence of God would not make science invalid.[/QUOTE]
I think that faith is faith regardless of what it's in. I have deduced that gravity exists because empirically, I've observed that things fall to the ground. Even gravity is only a theory, however.
It's not true to say that 'science is real'.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22464262]you're right, I was generalising and I shouldn't have. but let's face it, the majority of facepunch seem to be closed minded to anything but their science books.[/QUOTE]
I believe it's the case with atheists aswell as believers, that the only ones you ever notice are the uneducated loudmouths. The majority of atheists, christians and muslims are most likely reasonable people. But it's the fundamentalists, the extremists and the hateful ones people that come to mind when you think of them.
When two people from different groups who are more moderate engage in discussion you often end up with a huge mess because they make wrongful assumptions about the other person based on what they know of the "bad apples" of their group.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22464356]I think that faith is faith regardless of what it's in.[/QUOTE]
It is, but its meaning changes.
[quote]I have deduced that gravity exists because empirically, I've observed that things fall to the ground. Even gravity is only a theory, however.[/quote]
I don't think you understand the term theory as used by science
[quote]It's not true to say that 'science is real'.[/quote]It is, even if God were only a fairy tale (something that we cannot prove), he'd still be real in the same context a character in a book is real. Semantics aside though;
[Quote][B]Science[/B] (from the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin"]Latin[/URL] [I]scientia[/I], meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise of gathering knowledge about the world and organizing and condensing that knowledge into testable laws and theories.[/Quote]It is very real.
[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;22464404]I believe it's the case with atheists aswell as believers, that the only ones you ever notice are the uneducated loudmouths. The majority of atheists, christians and muslims are most likely reasonable people. But it's the fundamentalists, the extremists and the hateful ones people that come to mind when you think of them.
When two people from different groups who are more moderate engage in discussion you often end up with a huge mess because they make wrongful assumptions about the other person based on what they know of the "bad apples" of their group.[/QUOTE]
very true.
I suppose I could come under the class of fundamentalist ignosticism, if such a thing can be imagined. :v:
I trust largely what I'm told by scientists more than religion because - to me - it connects the dots more than the bible or the qu'ran does. But I wouldn't ever say "science is fact" because that makes incredible assumptions about both 'science' and 'fact'.
Having said that, Tao Te Ching was one of the most inspiring and perhaps [I]most truthful[/I] things I have ever read.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;22464356]I think that faith is faith regardless of what it's in. I have deduced that gravity exists because empirically, I've observed that things fall to the ground. Even gravity is only a theory, however.
It's not true to say that 'science is real'.[/QUOTE]
Gravity is a widely accepted theory because we know enough about the processes we think are behind it to explain, in detail, how and why it works.
God however, is a completely different "theory" altogether. It is not based on empirical evidence. It is not developed from the ground up, built on testable and repeatable circumstances that we have observed and studied.
If you believe, as you seem to be suggesting, that the existence of God is comparable to the affects and processes of gravity in its carefully considered, documented, and operable form then I'm sorry but you are provably wrong.
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