A strange feeling - Where does the War go from here?
102 replies, posted
I can respect that it doesn't mean much of anything to some people, but I can't say I feel the same way. Whether this makes things better, or worse, it's still something I'll remember for a long time to come. I remember watching the second plane go into the second tower, and I'll remember this as well. I'm conflicted as to how I feel about the celebrations that have occurred. Celebrating one man's death is not war, it is revenge.
[QUOTE=CoolCorky;29572381]The next logical step in war is [b]War In Space[/b][/QUOTE]
More like war on space.
Occupying space and shooting any space hippie commie foreigner that moves.
[QUOTE=archangel125;29567436]
America will rest more easily in their beds tonight than they have for ten years - but some of us won't get much sleep.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, I won't. If anything, I'll have more trouble falling asleep.
I was only 6 when the WTC got hit, and I went to school within visual range of both towers; my mom worked, and still does, in the city. I felt nothing but terror that entire day, because I didn't know where that attack would end. Then again, I was six, so I couldn't tell whether it was an invasion or an accident, as the idea of terrorism was wholly alien to me. All I knew was, when I eventually heard a few days later the words Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden for the first time, I wanted the man dead. Nothing more, nothing less. I wanted his body in the ground, as well as those of anybody else involved.
Now that I'm 16 and, as I'd like to think, significantly smarter, killing bin Laden doesn't really put my mind at ease. What does killing him do? Al-Qaeda will still go on, they operate in cells for just that reason. We didn't get intel from him, we didn't bring him to justice for his sickening crimes. We killed him. And we just stirred the hornets' nest, because now all those acolytes of the sick bastard are going to be out for blood.
We made him a martyr. And in doing so, we sunk to his level. There was no trial, no justice, just more death. I'm brilliantly happy that he's dead. As far as I'm concerned, while the death sentence is barbaric and life in jail is a far more suitable sentence, his dying is, to some primal part of me, justice. But what comes next, that's worrying me.
[QUOTE=archangel125;29568060]You can never bring anything but a mockery of democracy to Afghanistan. The west needs to get that idea out of their head. We're there to drive the Taliban out and equip the government to keep them out. That's all.[/QUOTE]
The Taliban isn't even the chief problem. The primary issue is that people do not have confidence in Karzai's government, which can be solved mainly political and economic support, and thirdly (but not as important) military support without Afghanistan looking like a US puppet.
One of the things the Soviets did wrong in the '80s was that they trained the DRA (Communist Afghan) Army with Soviet procedures rather than adapting to Afghan culture. How do ISAF troops train the Afghan National Army? It should be obvious now that Western training methods are ultimately not going to work.
The government here isn't nearly stable enough to have a solid acceptance among the people. As long as this remains a fact, we will be in Afghanistan. A good example to look at is when we captured Saddam Hussein. Retaliatory actions were taken by the insurgents and things were going down the drain fast, but a lot of people lost their will to fight with their icon out of the picture. Things slowly died down. I can only hope that Afghanistan follows suit.
[editline]2nd May 2011[/editline]
In essence, Bin Laden's death doesn't mean jack shit at the moment, but soon it will be noted as a turning point in the war (Not a determining victory, but definitely a turning point.)
[QUOTE=TEH_TPMASTER;29574367]The government here isn't nearly stable enough to have a solid acceptance among the people. As long as this remains a fact, we will be in Afghanistan. A good example to look at is when we captured Saddam Hussein. Retaliatory actions were taken by the insurgents and things were going down the drain fast, but a lot of people lost their will to fight with their icon out of the picture. Things slowly died down. I can only hope that Afghanistan follows suit.
[editline]2nd May 2011[/editline]
In essence, Bin Laden's death doesn't mean jack shit at the moment, but soon it will be noted as a turning point in the war (Not a determining victory, but definitely a turning point.)[/QUOTE]
Do they still call him the Mayor of Kabul?
[QUOTE=archangel125;29574586]Do they still call him the Mayor of Kabul?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure. Haven't heard anyone call him that.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;29567887]It leaves this feeling of ugliness. Osama's dead, Al Qaeda is probably still as strong as it was 10 years ago except with new people, countries have been torn apart and countless innocents have died. It makes me ask, how worth it was it? It seems so utterly pointless in the end, and makes the (former) American leadership seem just as bad as the enemy they wanted to destroy. [b]The thing that hit me the most is all those Americans, jumping up and down and celebrating over Osama's death. Doesn't that make those people worse then the people they're fighting?[/b] Aren't they doing exactly what the enemy did when they hit the WTC? It makes me think, if America never retaliated, would things be better or worse?[/QUOTE]
It's a bad thing to celebrate the death of a mass murderer? Are we as bad as Hitler or Pol Pot for being happy that they're dead?
[QUOTE=The_Putty;29567887]It leaves this feeling of ugliness. Osama's dead, Al Qaeda is probably still as strong as it was 10 years ago except with new people, countries have been torn apart and countless innocents have died. It makes me ask, how worth it was it? It seems so utterly pointless in the end, and makes the (former) American leadership seem just as bad as the enemy they wanted to destroy. The thing that hit me the most is all those Americans, jumping up and down and celebrating over Osama's death. Doesn't that make those people worse then the people they're fighting? Aren't they doing exactly what the enemy did when they hit the WTC? It makes me think, if America never retaliated, would things be better or worse?[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. The war has been a waste of lives and resources, and poor planning has led to the state of affairs we see now. However, the death of Osama is a victory because of its symbolic value and because it will be a huge morale booster for the West. He was our target going into this war, and while finally accomplishing that objective ten years too late feels like an empty victory, it is still a victory.
I see this mostly as a morale booster for most Americans/United Nations/NATO.
It is now 1942
But wait, by killing Nazis we will only be creating [I]more Nazis![/I]
As an American, I have to say that my country is FUCKING STUPID and that we are in the Middle East in our wars for all the wrong reasons.
Our troops will still be there for decades, and nothing will change now that Osama is dead.
We are fighting there to promote American Capitalism and so that our Corporations can get more oil and money.
The vast majority of Americans are totally against these wars, but there is nothing we can do about it.
No matter who we vote for, they all do the same things when they are President.
This country is no longer controlled by the People.
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575351]As an American, I have to say that my country is FUCKING STUPID and that we are in the Middle East in our wars for all the wrong reasons.
Our troops will still be there for decades, and nothing will change now that Osama is dead.
We are fighting there to promote American Capitalism and so that our Corporations can get more oil and money.
The vast majority of Americans are totally against these wars, but there is nothing we can do about it.
No matter who we vote for, they all do the same things when they are President.
This country is no longer controlled by the People.[/QUOTE]
Decades? I think not.
Still, I won't deny that corporate interests pretty much run your country.
[QUOTE=archangel125;29575372]Decades? I think not.
Still, I won't deny that corporate interests pretty much run your country.[/QUOTE]
World War II ended in 1945 and America still has bases in Germany and Japan.
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575419]World War II ended in 1945 and America still has bases in Germany and Japan.[/QUOTE]
Ah, but Germany and Japan are countries where society has become quite western. And while they maintain military bases there, those serve only as ways to project American power to maintain fast strike capability against major threats, like Russia and China.
Besides, Russia has no bases in Afghanistan following their occupation. Nor do any of the other forces that tried to conquer that country.
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575419]World War II ended in 1945 and America still has bases in Germany and Japan.[/QUOTE]
It's all about centralizing ourselves in every major nation so when shit goes sour, we're knocking on shit creeks door with a dry spell.
"Dry" humor. hehe.
Alright, I'll stop.
[QUOTE=TEH_TPMASTER;29575486]It's all about centralizing ourselves in every major nation so when shit goes sour, we're knocking on shit creeks door with a dry spell.
"Dry" humor. hehe.
Alright, I'll stop.[/QUOTE]
At least you don't have to set the shit on fire in that case, eh?
[QUOTE=archangel125;29575372]Decades? I think not.
Still, I won't deny that corporate interests pretty much run your country.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, decades. The only thing that could stop permanent military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan is the US economy collapsing.
[QUOTE=Contag;29575690]Yeah, decades. The only thing that could stop permanent military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan is the US economy collapsing.[/QUOTE]
Won't be long. A year after the next Republican win of the US elections.
I'm sure this has been said already, but you'd be foolish to think anything is "over" now.
President Barack Obama is guaranteed re-election in 2012 now that the military has killed Osama bin Laden.
It just makes me mad because I voted for him because he was supposed to be the "anti-war" candidate who would bring our military home, but now he is escalating things and shows no sign of ever ending any of our wars.
[QUOTE=Matix;29575814]I'm sure this has been said already, but you'd be foolish to think anything is "over" now.[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah. Only the hunt for Bin Laden is over. The only clear enemy this war had is now dead.
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575834]President Barack Obama is guaranteed re-election in 2012 now that the military has killed Osama bin Laden.
It just makes me mad because I voted for him because he was supposed to be the "anti-war" candidate who would bring our military home, but now he is escalating things and shows no sign of ever ending any of our wars.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, mate, just pulling out and bringing the troops home can't be done. It'll put the USA on very, very unstable ground in international relations, and all efforts over the last twenty years to gain influence in the middle-east will be undone, and worse. It's simply not an option.
Bin Laden was found in the middle of Pakistan, in an upscale neighborhood, in a million dollar compound, a hundred yards away from Pakistan's equivalent of West Point. We've been paying the country for the last nine years to help us FIND the bastard, and not only were they harboring him in luxury, they were using [i]our money to do it.[/i]
I can't say that anybody's really surprised that Pakistan was harboring this guy (they sell Bin Laden posters in the streets, he's a fuckin' national hero), but this is the biggest slap in the face to America since 9/11--hell, since the first skirmish with King George's troops in 1775. This could have devastating and far-reaching consequences, up to and including another full-scale invasion. Will it, though? Probably not. America is tired of fighting, and even though Pakistan is essentially the terrorist headquarters of the world, and even though they harbored one of America's most historic enemies in luxury with the very money we were giving them to support us, and even though their neighbors in India are just [i]itching[/i] for a good excuse to attack Pakistan ever since the Mumbai terrorist attack in 2008, America and the world don't want another ten-year ground-war (and I guarantee that the level of insurgency we'd see in Pakistan would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a pre-season game).
That said, there will undoubtedly be some sort of reprisal for their actions. There has to be. I've supported most of Obama's military decisions these past three years, but if he doesn't answer their treachery he gives free license to all similar attempts from other countries who would attack us so. Another groundwar is unacceptable and unlikely, but our president has a great and terrible decision to make as to how he handles this information.
[QUOTE=archangel125;29575867]To be honest, mate, just pulling out and bringing the troops home can't be done. It'll put the USA on very, very unstable ground in international relations, and all efforts over the last twenty years to gain influence in the middle-east will be undone, and worse. It's simply not an option.[/QUOTE]
Yes it can.
The USA is already on very, very unstable ground.
EVERYONE outside the USA and Europe HATES America.
And a lot of Europe hates America too.
Blowing up children and families in the Middle East (when bombs hit the wrong targets) is not winning us anything.
Our soldiers are raping and murdering CHILDREN in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Us being there is hurting the USA.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings[/url]
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575962]Yes it can.
The USA is already on very, very unstable ground.
EVERYONE outside the USA and Europe HATES America.
And a lot of Europe hates America too.
Blowing up children and families in the Middle East (when bombs hit the wrong targets) is not winning us anything.
Our soldiers are raping and murdering CHILDREN in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Us being there is hurting the USA.[/QUOTE]
But leaving would hurt the USA far, far worse. This is America's war. NATO is committed. We pull out, that country collapses, and the USA's name is dirt. Obama's made great strides toward repairing US relations with the Middle East, and to throw that all away for sentimentality's sake is idiotic.
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575962]Yes it can.
The USA is already on very, very unstable ground.
EVERYONE outside the USA and Europe HATES America.
And a lot of Europe hates America too.
Blowing up children and families in the Middle East (when bombs hit the wrong targets) is not winning us anything.
Our soldiers are raping and murdering CHILDREN in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Us being there is hurting the USA.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings[/url][/QUOTE]
*blink*
You know it's 2011 and soldiers have a tendency of doing crazy shit, on account of having to do rather traumatic things?
I'm surprised there aren't more cases actually.
[QUOTE=analrapist;29575962]Yes it can.
The USA is already on very, very unstable ground.
EVERYONE outside the USA and Europe HATES America.
And a lot of Europe hates America too.
Blowing up children and families in the Middle East (when bombs hit the wrong targets) is not winning us anything.
Our soldiers are raping and murdering CHILDREN in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Us being there is hurting the USA.[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about, man? Raping and murdering children? Where do you get your information, MadLib puzzles?
[i]"Hey Paul, want to catch a drink once we're off-duty?"[/i]
[i]"No thanks, I'm going to go (verb) and (verb) some children."[/i]
Leaving too quickly would cast the entire region into chaos. In our wake would rise every warlord and armed tribe in a thousand miles to take control of the now-defenseless land. There would be massive internal warring. You [i]actually[/i] want to see people getting raped and murdered? There you go.
OP, you're being melodramatic
You're doing it fairly well but you're still doing it
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