• What Even Matters Anymore - SNL
    127 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073813]If you knew me before I left you'd think I was a totally different person. I have done nothing but thrive and become more and more even keeled since my escape.[/QUOTE] Yet you have let none of that hate die. You have kept it - you have nurtured it - and you have chosen not just to refuse to forgive those who maligned you but to move their crimes onto millions of others. So long as you continue to choose to retain that hatred - to harbor feelings that you need revenge and compensation for your dealings with a select group that no longer even is near you - you will continue to be exactly the same person you were where you left. I'm concerned you're only getting better at putting on a mask while convincing yourself 'there is no mask'. Your relocation was but a single step on a journey to truly resolve those feelings - it'll take some combination of therapy, exposure to people of that same ideology who don't hate you, a willingness to let go of that hate and stereotype, the desire to open yourself back up again to other ideas and people, and other such things to truly heal your pain and kill your hatred. Removing yourself from the source of your pain doesn't diminish or resolve the pain that was already done to you - just because you're not hurting now doesn't mean you've dealt with what's happened to you. As with other posters, I also recommend therapy.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073818]Yet you have let none of that hate die. You have kept it - you have nurtured it - and you have chosen not just to refuse to forgive those who maligned you but to move their crimes onto millions of others. So long as you continue to choose to retain that hatred - to harbor feelings that you need revenge and compensation for your dealings with a select group that no longer even is near you - you will continue to be exactly the same person you were where you left. I'm concerned you're only getting better at putting on a mask while convincing yourself 'there is no mask'.[/QUOTE] Someone asked me why I thought a certain way so I dredged this up. I don't go round and spout this off everyday. I spend most of my day thinking about how nice it would be to have a wife and kids. And schoolwork.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073826]Someone asked me why I thought a certain way so I dredged this up. I don't go round and spout this off everyday. I spend most of my day thinking about how nice it would be to have a wife and kids. And schoolwork.[/QUOTE] It's not about you spouting it off everyday. In fact, you're more or less saying that you try and keep this hidden and aren't dealing with it. Trying to squash those feelings with busywork and family time won't squash those feelings. You can only resolve hatred by taking the time to forgive enough until you finally at least mostly forget -- and that's usually time you should be taking with a therapist to help guide you. Spouting off every day wouldn't resolve your pain because that pain doesn't live in the world around you - it lives inside you - it's not something that you can just 'decide to let go of' and isn't something you can just 'gather enough sympathy for that it dies'. You don't need sympathy or busywork - those are coping strategies rather than solutions - you need therapy and exposure to people who have that ideology that caused you pain who don't act like the people you were exposed to. I say these things because, ultimately, the only way to resolve those problems is for you to want to resolve them.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073826]Someone asked me why I thought a certain way so I dredged this up. I don't go round and spout this off everyday. I spend most of my day thinking about how nice it would be to have a wife and kids. And schoolwork.[/QUOTE] Still, like... If you still blame the greater left for what happened to you and are okay with them suffering, a demographic of [I]millions[/I] of people, you should talk to someone. I can't blame you for not wanting to, but it's not healthy to bottle things like that up. Your experiences don't speak for absolutely everyone.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53073844]Still, like... If you still blame the greater left for what happened to you and are okay with them suffering, a demographic of [I]millions[/I] of people, you should talk to someone. I can't blame you for not wanting to, but it's not healthy to bottle things like that up. Your experiences don't speak for absolutely everyone.[/QUOTE] When I tell most people the things I've seen they think I'm lying. So terrible were the things I experienced that people couldn't take me seriously when I described it to them in earnest.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073851]When I tell most people the things I've seen they think I'm lying. So terrible were the things I experienced that people couldn't take me seriously when I described it to them in earnest.[/QUOTE] If it was a therapist then your therapist sucked. If you can ever find the right person or practice, I really think it would help.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073851]When I tell most people the things I've seen they think I'm lying. So terrible were the things I experienced that people couldn't take me seriously when I described it to them in earnest.[/QUOTE] Not to attempt to diminish your story in any way, but I'm sorry to report that people deliberately make up stories just like this to justify their hatred against 'the radical left' - often taking a verbal jeer or a slight and blowing it up to enormous, nation-spanning, conspiracy-laden heights. This isn't meant as a dismissal of your story but rather an explanation for why people might view it with suspicion. I also say this because those stories are made by people who harbor great hate in their hearts for 'the radical left' and have reached the point that they don't care whose lives they ruin or that they're lying or exaggerating in order to do so. They've become so blinded by hate that they feel joy in the suffering of others. This is worrisome because that makes them vulnerable to radicalization, and radicalized people can be easily convinced to hurt others in grand displays of violence and terror by other people who also hold such great hate in their hearts that they care little for anyone else's suffering but their own. And, again, that suffering won't be extinguished by the suffering of others - it'll just continue that cycle and feed itself, leading them deeper and deeper down the dark paths into truly frightening, morally/ethically bankrupt, and horrific places.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53073854]If it was a therapist then your therapist sucked.[/QUOTE] Multiple therapists. And teachers. And counselors. And this makes me angry for another reason: When the right commits an atrocity everyone believes it and is willing to dole out empathy. But because the left cornered the market on humanitarian goodwill, no one could fathom them doing anything wrong to a person. In truth, my frustration comes less from the cruelty but from the immense and soul crushing hypocrisy I witnessed. The sheer magnitude of the ideological double standard dumbfounded me. [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073857]Not to attempt to diminish your story in any way, but I'm sorry to report that people deliberately make up stories just like this to justify their hatred against 'the radical left' - often taking a verbal jeer or a slight and blowing it up to enormous, nation-spanning, conspiracy-laden heights. This isn't meant as a dismissal of your story but rather an explanation for why people might view it with suspicion. I also say this because those stories are made by people who harbor great hate in their hearts for 'the radical left' and have reached the point that they don't care whose lives they ruin or that they're lying or exaggerating in order to do so. They've become so blinded by hate that they feel joy in the suffering of others. This is worrisome because that makes them vulnerable to radicalization, and radicalized people can be easily convinced to hurt others in grand displays of violence and terror by other people who also hold such great hate in their hearts that they care little for anyone else's suffering but their own. And, again, that suffering won't be extinguished by the suffering of others - it'll just continue that cycle and feed itself, leading them deeper and deeper down the dark paths into truly frightening, morally/ethically bankrupt, and horrific places.[/QUOTE] I don't like those types of stories/videos about "liberal tears" etc etc because they usually are just a street altercation gone bad.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073864]Multiple therapists. And teachers. And counselors. And this makes me angry for another reason: When the right commits an atrocity everyone believes it and is willing to dole out empathy. But because the left cornered the market on humanitarian goodwill, no one could fathom them doing anything wrong to a person. In truth, my frustration comes less from the cruelty but from the immense and soul crushing hypocrisy I witnessed. The sheer magnitude of the ideological double standard dumbfounded me.[/QUOTE] People will let things they normally wouldn't let slide off the hook when it's coming from their side all the time. Not just in politics, and not just from dems. Tribalism at work. Did you only try to get counseling in LA? You said you've felt happier, so I'd assume so. You should try again when you feel comfortable doing so.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073864]Multiple therapists. And teachers. And counselors. And this makes me angry for another reason: When the right commits an atrocity everyone believes it and is willing to dole out empathy. But because the left cornered the market on humanitarian goodwill, no one could fathom them doing anything wrong to a person.[/QUOTE] Thinking people think 'the left can never do anything wrong to a person' is just a symptom of that festering hate in you bubbling to the surface. The reason why I'd personally take those atrocities at face value? Because there's usually credible reporting behind it - and typically racist or classist motives behind them. Also, they keep happening again and again - so of course that seems to build or confirm patterns, which makes me easier to go 'well of course it's happened again'. I don't view the Democratic party of today as some shining white tower full of benevolent angels. There is corruption, there are backroom deals, and there's unfortunately still some streaks of racism and sexism left in the party -- not enough to taint the whole party but enough to keep an eye on. Mind that there's also a lot of disinformation principally and in great volumes coming from the right-leaning portion of the political spectrum right now, and that's on purpose. We are expected to believe that Senator Al Franken did what he did to his co-workers and the like (which to be accurate we do believe them because, again, credible reporting) - but are also demanded by the right to believe that Roy Moore's accusers are liars -- despite there being enormous volumes of accusations and reports to justify that. We are asked to ignore the actions of the right and cast our torches at any of the slightest sense of impropriety or corruption on the left. This, of course, in turn, leads people to then take even greater examination and focus on the actions of the right and somewhat ignore the left - because people are sensitive to being manipulated and there's a lot of people on the right trying to not only manipulate people but outright lie and get away with it without any consequence. Simply put: People are fed up with the current personalities of the right. That doesn't make right-leaning ideology necessarily bad. It doesn't mean conservatism is horrendous (although I still stand by that concepts such as 'trickle down economics' have no root in reality and no evidence that they work despite the constant insistence that we ignore the last four times its been tried where it failed spectacularly each time). It also doesn't help that the right is doing things like trying to deport dark-skinned people and refuse them entry into the country in purely racist whims and are holding children's healthcare hostage simply to score political points because they refuse to give up their senatorial seats. A party that can commit to such things for purely political purposes makes it very difficult to believe that its even capable of humanitarian goodwill.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53073886]People will let things they normally wouldn't let slide off the hook when it's coming from their side all the time. Not just in politics, and not just from dems. Did you only try to get counseling in LA? You said you've felt happier, so I'd assume so. You should try again when you feel comfortable doing so.[/QUOTE] I felt happier because I moved, not because of the therapy which was years ago.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073891]I felt happier because I moved, not because of the therapy which was years ago.[/QUOTE] Therapy only tends to work when the person getting therapy actually wants to first understand and then actually let go of their feelings. It can also be that the therapist was bad, or inattentive, or just unsympathetic and uncaring - but I'd bet on the former being the case much more often than the latter. Therapy can't work when you don't want it to.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073890] It also doesn't help that the right is doing things like trying to deport dark-skinned people and refuse them entry into the country in [B]purely racist[/B] whims [/QUOTE] There it is again. The right has no motivation but malice and hatred. We are incapable of rational thought, we are merely hatred incarnate. No other motives, no other reasons, just pure unadulterated evil. And for all this talk about not painting a large group of people with a big brush.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073900]There it is again. The right has no motivation but malice and hatred. We are incapable of rational thought, we are merely hatred incarnate. No other motives, no other reasons, just pure unadulterated evil.[/QUOTE] [B]You[/B] aren't unless you agree with the particular motives and aspirations of those presently in power. [B]They[/B] have motivations beyond malice and hatred, sure, but they are undeniably present in nearly all their decision making. If you join that group then you are putting yourself in their brushstroke. It's not your ideology I have issue with - it's the politicians in office, their goals, and people who swear to back them simply because they have a name that is associated with what they believe in.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073851]When I tell most people the things I've seen they think I'm lying. So terrible were the things I experienced that people couldn't take me seriously when I described it to them in earnest.[/QUOTE] Maybe the way you [I]felt[/I] events played out was skewed, and you acting like an asshole made the people around you treat you like an asshole. I don't know what happened in your life. I don't particularly care. I do know that as a fellow human, we're prone to our own biases and deficiencies. Often these come up in ways that are hard to detect when we're stuck inside of them. As someone with absolutely no stake in your life, based on what you've posted in this thread I'm inclined to believe that you bare some of the blame for your situation. There's no reason for me to believe that you were escorted by police off a university campus [B]only[/B] because you disagreed with a professor, or that you've experienced a lifetime of dehumanization because you're conservative or a christian in a place that's still about a quarter Republican and majority christian. If cartoons are enough of an assault on your identity that you'll use them as justification to treat others poorly, there's probably some other shit going on in your head. That shit is absolutely bonkers. Were I in your shoes, I'd want to figure that out. The most direct route would be talking to a trained professional and not a collective of weirdos on the internet. [QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073864]Multiple therapists. And teachers. And counselors. And this makes me angry for another reason: When the right commits an atrocity everyone believes it and is willing to dole out empathy. But because the left cornered the market on humanitarian goodwill, no one could fathom them doing anything wrong to a person. In truth, my frustration comes less from the cruelty but from the immense and soul crushing hypocrisy I witnessed. The sheer magnitude of the ideological double standard dumbfounded me.[/QUOTE] See, this [I]really[/I] makes me think you're stuck in your head. If multiple trained professionals aren't buying what you're selling, maybe you should take a better look at the possibility that you've been wrong about some of this shit. I'd rather bet on trained professionals than a man that tries to justify hurting other people because of cartoons.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073905][B]You[/B] aren't unless you agree with the particular motives and aspirations of those presently in power. [B]They[/B] have motivations beyond malice and hatred, sure, but they are undeniably present in nearly all their decision making. If you join that group then you are putting yourself in their brushstroke. It's not your ideology I have issue with - it's the politicians in office, their goals, and people who swear to back them simply because they have a name that is associated with what they believe in.[/QUOTE] So, if it were different politicians altogether calling for greater border security and immigration enforcement, you wouldn't consider that racist.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073911]So, if it were different politicians altogether calling for greater border security and immigration enforcement, you wouldn't consider that racist.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't -- unless they expressed themselves in such a way that revealed that they were doing so for racist reasons. In which case I would consider it racist. Much like how I presently consider the goal of it now to be predominately racism and xenophobia -- because that's what it has bore out to be. I would also throw the shadow of that on anyone who aligns themselves with such reasoning and people - even if they don't say it out loud - because they are making their allegiances clear. If they continue to do so, even if they still make no remarks, then they've made it nonetheless clear what they think about it - even in spite of their rhetoric if they still vote 'yea' for it when their speeches would imply that they're about to vote 'no'.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073911]So, if it were different politicians altogether calling for greater border security and immigration enforcement, you wouldn't consider that racist.[/QUOTE] I would if they singled out specific ethnicities, calling them bad hombres and implying every single one is a terrorist and so forth
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073891]I felt happier because I moved, not because of the therapy which was years ago.[/QUOTE] No, I mean you probably haven't tried therapy since you came to Kansas because as you've said, you're happier in Kansas. You might be more likely to get counselling that's better for you there, I don't know. Like I said, if you're ever comfortable with the idea you should give it a shot and see if it works better.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53073917]No, I mean you probably haven't tried therapy since you came to Kansas because as you've said, you're happier in Kansas. You might be more likely to get counselling that's better for you there, I don't know. Like I said, if you're ever comfortable with the idea you should give it a shot and see if it works better.[/QUOTE] I'd follow this post up with: It's not likely to ever get better until you give it and keep giving it an actual, honest, shot until it does work and you no longer feel that hatred.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53073917]No, I mean you probably haven't tried therapy since you came to Kansas because as you've said, you're happier in Kansas. You might be more likely to get counselling that's better for you there, I don't know. Like I said, if you're ever comfortable with the idea you should give it a shot and see if it works better.[/QUOTE] No money or time for it.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073922]No money or time for it.[/QUOTE] It's your mind, whatever you say man. You only have to live with you for the rest of your life.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073922]No money or time for it.[/QUOTE] Hope you can find the money and time at some point.
[QUOTE=1legmidget;53073910] As someone with absolutely no stake in your life, based on what you've posted in this thread I'm inclined to believe that you bare some of the blame for your situation. There's no reason for me to believe that you were escorted by police off a university campus [B]only[/B] because you disagreed with a professor[/QUOTE] Oh, I'll tell you how [I][B]that[/B][/I] little interaction played out. It was the week after the election. The course was Cultural Anthropology, I needed it for my transfer degree. Teacher came in and said she'd stay after class to console grieving students. I understood, some people took it hard. She then said this was because she knew some students were at risk and explained because of their skin color/sexual orientation, president elect Trump was going to send actual death squads to their neighborhoods and drag them off/have them shot. I rose my hand and said that might be fearmongering a bit and would be highly unlikely. I thought my assessment was reasonable enough because I don't like to cause a fuss. Holy shit it was like I had gone to St. Peter's Cathedral and pissed in the holy water. 190 students started screaming at me, calling me a racist, a bigot, all that shit. Professor just scowled at me and called campus security on the grounds that I was a "danger to others." The cops walked me out and asked what happened and that was that. Funny, that was the day I went home and vowed I leave CA. And I did just that not one year later. [QUOTE=1legmidget;53073910]A man that tries to justify hurting other people because of cartoons.[/QUOTE] Write this on my gravestone.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073922]No money or time for it.[/QUOTE] I'm guessing you are out of University at this point? (Most Universities offer counseling, mental help, etc). If so, I think even some career-level jobs offer basic therapy or similar resources. If that's not an option, I think you could try fishing around for different sub-communities on sites like Reddit.
[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;53073941]I'm guessing you are out of University at this point? (Most Universities offer counseling, mental help, etc). If so, I think even some career-level jobs offer basic therapy or similar resources. If that's not an option, I think you could try fishing around for different sub-communities on sites like Reddit.[/QUOTE] Still in university, but I'm in the teaching program and any use of mental healthcare raises alarms.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073943]Still in university, but I'm in the teaching program and any use of mental healthcare raises alarms.[/QUOTE] Because it's totally better to encourage people who may need mental healthcare to hide it to keep their job than partake in it. This culture, sometimes.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53073948]Because it's totally better to encourage people who may need mental healthcare to hide it to keep their job than partake in it. This culture, sometimes.[/QUOTE] Sometimes that's the way it is. Luckily, I'm feeling better everyday. I feel more loved and belonged than I ever have, I'm in the education major's community and there are people I find annoying but they're all good people from many walks of life.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073968]Sometimes that's the way it is. Luckily, I'm feeling better everyday.[/QUOTE] Should still think about it if you ever get the chance.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53073968]Sometimes that's the way it is. Luckily, I'm feeling better everyday. I feel more loved and belonged than I ever have, I'm in the education major's community and there are people I find annoying but they're all good people from many walks of life.[/QUOTE] Hey there Johnny Joe. Take it from an old Californian that I hope your move and time in Kansas is really helping you. Some people might balk at the idea that a small town in Kansas would hold any form of diversity, but that viewpoint is coming from a different perspective. The fact of the matter is that life style is different from what you were raised around, and hopefully exposure to this is helping you find your way in life. I grew up as an ethnic minority in a fiscally conservative, socially moderate part of the state. I went out of state for college in Central Illinois. Spent a summer in Montana raising calves. Spent a summer in Washington writing software. Moved out to San Francisco when I graduated, and left the city two years later to go back to school. Otherwise I've driven just about everywhere in the US and been to a fair number of other places outside of it as well. I loved Grassrange and Roundup, Montana as much as I loved San Francisco or New Orleans. I've made a lot of friends all over who came from different places than me and left for different places too. I've shared laughs and beers with people who couldn't stand old, white farts driving like ass on LA freeways to people who've bitten me on the arm to put a little bit of America in the first "Chinaman" they've ever met. And I've never 100% agreed with anyone before, especially on their stances that are borne from ignorance or hate or fear, but I've never judged anyone too harshly for them because I know how that feels and there's enough ugliness in the world without me contributing my own share to it. But if there's one thing I've learned from all my traveling and all the diversity I've encountered both in the US and around the world, is that the ugliness is there. I've seen exactly the ugliness and intolerance you've experienced. I've also seen a lot of other kinds of ugliness, some from those same people, some from very different people, and some inside of myself. Everyone between downtown LA and that little Kansas town of yours struggles with it, and some find that struggle more challenging than others. And when you see that ugliness pop out of people and splash itself onto you and you find yourself asking "It shouldn't be this way. Why is does it have to be this way?" you're never gonna find a satisfying answer, and that void will gnaw at you and make you angry and bitter. And that's gonna make it all the more tempting for your own bit of ugly to come out and paint it right back. But you have to be careful, because it's a wide brush. And it's a blinding brush. And you're not always going to hit the people who might deserve it. In fact in a place as diverse as the US truly, genuinely is, if you let that happen you're all but guaranteed to hit somebody who was never part of the picture to begin with. So I truly hope moving away makes it easier for you to not let that ugliness out, and from what you've typed it sounds like it's likely the case and for that I'm happy. But as tempting as it is to think that the world would be much smoother and much better if its people started empathizing with you, it's never going to be perfect at that. And it takes a very special strength and determination to soldier on despite all the ugliness and stay kind, caring, thoughtful, understanding, and tolerant. But in the end it's incredibly important you find that strength somewhere. Because in the end you are the whole world according to yourself, and things do go much smoother if you have the strength to carry on with it, despite how challenging it feels. I'll leave the last paragraph as one last thing to chew on. It would have been very easy for many in this thread to write you off as a lost cause and to shout you down. Indeed several people have. But I think just as many tried to reach out, as strangers on the internet, and really understand your position and have a constructive dialogue with you. They tried to be all of those things I listed above: kind, caring, thoughtful, understanding, and tolerant despite having very little reason to do so. I think after reading your many posts I'm walking away with a more informed vision of what our social tapestry looks like and I thank you for talking with us. I really hope you are walking away from all of our posts with a more nuanced image as well. Please have a happy and fruitful life, where you may take it.
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