Immigrants walk on highways to Calais pelting truckdrivers with rocks - General

[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;49199060] So you refuse to post any proof, not even a photo of where you work, literally anything, then completely ignore the rest of what I asked or said. I don't want to respect you lol I want proof you actually work at a refugee camp like you claim, since your using it as a reason you can post anti-immigration everything. p.s dumbing all my posts when they have no relation to you is stupid.[/QUOTE] Even if he took a picture of his work place one could still just say "you just googled that!" I'm not siding with anybody here, but if i was I would side with Rambler because unlike a lot of people who are just demanding shit and throwing accusations of racism, this guy is here putting actual effort into his posts and he's frankly making a lot more sense than most people here. Despite your position on the immigration matter, Rumbler just seems to have more information, and makes more educated arguments with better points to back it up.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;49199106]Even if he took a picture of his work place one could still just say "you just googled that!" I'm not siding with anybody here, but if i was I would side with Rambler because unlike a lot of people who are just demanding shit and throwing accusations of racism, this guy is here putting actual effort into his posts and he's frankly making a lot more sense than most people here. Despite your position on the immigration matter, Rumbler just seems to have more information, and makes more educated arguments with better points to back it up.[/QUOTE] I can literally check if he googled it. It's called reverse image search. It's easy. I am not posting here to debate if immigrants are one thing or another, I don't think he should be here at all, he does nothing but post this shit and contribute nothing else, and often his threads are outright false or sensationalist. I'm starting to doubt he works in a refugee camp as well. Hes just here to spread his political agenda, and again, majority left wing forum. Okay last post for real until he posts another thread. Which he will.

snippity swooty im coming for that boot

[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;49199060]True, not sure the reasoning, but it might have to do with right wing people on this forum being more vocal do to being a minority? I dunno. [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] So you refuse to post any proof, not even a photo of where you work, literally anything, then completely ignore the rest of what I asked or said. I don't want to respect you lol I want proof you actually work at a refugee camp like you claim, since your using it as a reason you can post anti-immigration everything. Don't use "I work in a refugee camp so I can post all the anti-immigration videos and news no matter how biased or potentially false they may be" when you refuse to post even the TINIEST AMOUNT of proof. And on the "SJW" topic, the most extreme SJW's on this forum were driven out after being permabanned, and the ones that are still here probably don't read this thread or give enough of a shit. It's a lousy excuse. "I'm just going to have to believe you." Bah. Even if you aren't a racist (which I suspect you are) your points are still moot. p.s dumbing all my posts when they have no relation to you is stupid.[/QUOTE] Refusing to give up my entire identity when youre this hostile, no thanks. Again, even if I prove that I work there, youre just gonna go "Ah ok." Im not going to win anything by doing it. I regularly post statistics and I give sources. If thats not enough then Id rather have you think of me as a racist instead of risking my real life peace of mind.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;49199106]Despite your position on the immigration matter, Rumbler just seems to have more information, and makes more educated arguments with better points to back it up.[/QUOTE] No he doesn't, he's formed his opinion based on nothing but possibly personal experiences , this very post he made shows you how little he knows about the subject [QUOTE=kweh;49197413]Sources are my own two eyes and ears who've seen both that and also refugees criticizing Portugal for not giving them enough. (as if we have a lot)[/QUOTE] he is just looking for these sort of anti-immigration videos as if they support his incredibly narrow-minded ideas such as this, not only relying on wether he actually works at a refugee center for arguments sake which he has not provided any proof of, just cause he's doing this does not by any means guarantee him the geo-political understanding of the global situation in the world today and the refugee crisis at large as he has not once acknowledged say Turkey or any of the bordering countries to Syria and how many refugees they have to take care of - with muuuch fewer resources at hand than really anywhere in Europe: [QUOTE=Rumbler;49197430]I'm not the 1% either. But you don't get to conveniently pretend like only money can help and therefor you can't do anything. Don't you realize that immigrants need a stable social connection first and foremost? They need help filling out paperwork, and they need help figuring out what country they just came into. Someone who explains the culture, rules, laws and all that. As long as you are not volunteering any effort, you are not in a position to criticize anyone or to demand that the collective pays for anything I'm sorry to say. The point of taxes is to pay for the collective needs of the tax[b]payers[/b]. It's namely the taxpayers who by social-contract given up their sovereignity to a government to take decisions on their behalf. The point of taxes is not, for a club of people to make promises like "We will only take in 5.000 and use your taxes for that" and then 6 months later there's 50.000 people here who we're suddenly paying for. Dutch people paid those taxes to keep the welfare system going, to keep up the level of education we have and the reality is now that we're cutting back on all of those, and that's we're taking in a massive amount of expensive immigrants. Voltares law is not a law like the law of gravity is. It's a philosophical concept. Why you would even refer to this, is completely beyond me. Look up what non-sequitor means please.[/QUOTE] and [QUOTE=Rumbler;49197372]Well the irony here is that I'm opposed to immigration, yet I'm the one working my ass off in my sparetime in a refugeecenter in Nijmegen, Netherlands and that I've spent the last eight years, as a volunteer, helping people integrate succesfully. So yes, I am faulting him for not doing enough individually, and I am faulting him for wanting to spend collective money because he's SO convinced, yet when it comes to his personal time and money he chooses to do nothing.[/QUOTE] And besides that just check his thread posting history [url]https://facepunch.com/search.php?searchid=6763402[/url] He has barely 150 posts he has no idea what he's talking about his posts themselves are pretty obvious about this and well that's all there is to it.. I have no idea why some of you guys are so willing to listen to what he has to say. And if you think this post is dumb and "immature" because I'm not respecting him or acknowledging his "educated" posts - he google searches statistics that have no relevance to what he's actually talking about - then well one of his first replies to me [QUOTE=Rumbler;49197441]Yeah I'm sorry but rubbish like this completely disqualifies you as a discussionalpartner. Did you not just read that I am volunteering my time at refugeeshelters, and that I've been actively helping to integrate people for the last 8 years? They're not running from a warzone from the point they're coming to Western countries. They are, or even have been in safe countries for quite some time, at the point they come to Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. Most of them travel through Turkey actually, and most of the fake passports are bought there as well.[/QUOTE] I don't know why he isn't banned yet to be honest. [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] oh dear I quoted kewh on that, well honestly they basically argue the same thing on similar grounds

purely from a numbers perspective there are a lot of major problems with the level of refugees. let alone any issues of cultural integration, there'd still be the logistical nightmare of supporting a quickly-increasing population without the tax revenue that normally comes with it. that there are clearly issues of cultural integration on both sides, some refugees having difficulty adapting to Western culture and some Westerners having difficulty accepting diversity, only makes things more difficult

yo we should all just get together and be one big planet country then nobody is an immigrant problems solved.

[QUOTE=yodafart9;49200634]yo we should all just get together and be one big planet country then nobody is an immigrant problems solved.[/QUOTE] If only we had such a thing. We should send military scouts to search for something like that. Kill anyone in our way.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;49201207]If only we had such a thing. We should send military scouts to search for something like that. Kill anyone in our way.[/QUOTE] From the way things have been looking in the search for intelligent life, we may very well end up being the ultra-tech bad guys from all the sci-fi movies, invading everything in our way.

But why though? Are they going somewhere, is this some sort of protest?

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;49197283]Economic immigrants. No refugees. Refugees fleeing from war zones for their lives sake don't act like this.[/QUOTE] yes they do, this is exactly what privation does to the mind and what people struggle to undestand hardship deprives people of intellect and choice and goodness. that's why the choice to accept people takes fortitude and patience and courage, because it's done at a disadvantage. it's a simple precept that governs your relationship to government as much as it does a refugee.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;49202339]yes they do, this is exactly what privation does to the mind and what people struggle to undestand hardship deprives people of intellect and choice and goodness. that's why the choice to accept people takes fortitude and patience and courage, because it's done at a disadvantage. it's a simple precept that governs your relationship to government as much as it does a refugee.[/QUOTE] Not sure how that rebukes his statement. These refugees are rejecting opportunities, throwing away supplies and demanding better treatment by threatening to go back, as if they're blessing the countries they enter with their presence. Refugees of the Yugoslav wars, Indochina conflicts and ww2 were just glad to not be getting killed. These refugees no longer have to worry about that. They stopped having to worry about that the second they left Syria.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;49202339]yes they do, this is exactly what privation does to the mind and what people struggle to undestand hardship deprives people of intellect and choice and goodness. that's why the choice to accept people takes fortitude and patience and courage, because it's done at a disadvantage. it's a simple precept that governs your relationship to government as much as it does a refugee.[/QUOTE] You know, I don't agree with you. I have several family stories of when my great great great grandfather smuggled himself into this nation, and I have stories of several WW2 refugees who were persecuted(yay for having a gypsy background) and who fled their nation as well. At least in these stories that are told, there isn't an aspect of them feeling anyone owed them anything. They felt they had to work to get something for themselves. I don't think I ever respected that as much as I do now, when in my country, province, and city, people my age are one of the least helped groups in the entire country. My point being, in the stories my family has told, and the stories i've heard many other survivors tell(I've attended several WW2 remembrance ceremonies, and a few Weisenthal conferences) they never fled to another nation expecting to be propped up by the government, to be given things without giving back. That was never a feature of any of their stories. They always talked about the prospect of a new life, and a fresh start, the chance to work for something new. I don't believe many refugees really truly hold the view that they're entitled to help, to assistance, and that they can act like this, but videos like this and many of the others that have surfaced are at the very least, thought provoking, and if you condemn that, I think that's shameful. I truly believe most of them just want better lives. But there comes a significant point of contention in what government, and taxation represents to different people. You believe that it's the government, and our personal interest, to sacrifice for the sake of other people without need for return or even gratitude. I disagree. I don't believe that the taxes I pay should help everyone else in the world, I believe they should help my nation. Canada, as it is, contributes as much as we can globally very regularly as that's something we hold dear, and I love that about our nation, but there is a point where that lack of self interest harms us, and harms our ability to continue to help those other nations because we're on a weaker footing. I see that if we follow your mindset, if we ignore a duty to help each other with our taxes and just help every starving and war torn person in the world, I think we'll all lose the ability to help those people at all in the long run. A nation becomes more wealthy, more intelligent, and more capable by investing in itself, that's a fact, if you feel like disputing it that's going to take a serious set of arguments. If that nation fails to help itself as much as it helps others, everyone suffers.

You definitely have a point and it would be much more relevant if it wasn't for the fact that that European countries take only a portion of the refugees, other countries in the west world take barely any.

[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;49198416]Honestly if the only thing you can offer to this community is pushing right wing views using literally anything you can find, then your dumb. Honestly what were you expecting on a majority left-wing forum. [editline]a[/editline] P.S I still think hes a racist, regardless if he says hes not. "Hes giving us insight" is total bullshit. The entire reason he is on this forum is to post anti-immigration threads, and his posts and his threads prove that. If he was already a part of the community and actively posted elsewhere I wouldn't believe that, but he doesn't.[/QUOTE] This post is riddled with ad hominem personal attacks, rather than arguing points. Its possible to be against the current immigration situation and not be a racist, that's authoritarian SJW logic.

[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;49203144]This post is riddled with ad hominem personal attacks, rather than arguing points. Its possible to be against the current immigration situation and not be a racist, that's authoritarian SJW logic.[/QUOTE] What's the point of arguing with him since he bases his entire opinion on personal experience?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203167]What's the point of arguing with him since he bases his entire opinion on personal experience?[/QUOTE] I don't think that's true though. Regardless of your opinion of him, Rumbler has used more statistical evidence to back up his assertion than anyone else here. His point is actually very simple. Middle eastern immigrants in the Netherlands do not integrate into Netherlands society as well as other immigrant populations, and as such bringing in more without finding some way of resolving that issue is a mistake. You could demonstrate that either his evidence or his interpretation of the evidence is flawed, or you could prove what the cause of the problem is and present a solution to it that would be feasible to implement. It isn't really different from arguing any other point.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49203529]I don't think that's true though. Regardless of your opinion of him, Rumbler has used more statistical evidence to back up his assertion than anyone else here. His point is actually very simple. Middle eastern immigrants in the Netherlands do not integrate into Netherlands society as well as other immigrant populations, and as such bringing in more without finding some way of resolving that issue is a mistake. You could demonstrate that either his evidence or his interpretation of the evidence is flawed, or you could prove what the cause of the problem is and present a solution to it that would be feasible to implement. It isn't really different from arguing any other point.[/QUOTE] What statistical evidence?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203550]What statistical evidence?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Rumbler;49198646]We can very well justify the position that it's not absurd to expect these people will function poorly, since people with the same backgrounds, and same culture are proven to be horrible at integration in Western Society. These number focus only on the Netherlands, but they're relatively the same throughout Europe. [b]Incarceration:[/b] [url=http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/bijna-63-procent-van-gevangenen-nederland-allochtoon]63% of prisoners in the Netherlands are immigrants[/url] In 2013 there were 43.000 people incarcerated after being convicted of a crime. 63% of those people belong to immigrant ethnicities. 10,6% of total prison population is from Maroccan descent alone. They make up only 2% of the entire population here in the Netherlands! Those numbers are incredibly askew. And before you start questioning the validity.. they come from the CBS which is the governmental statistics bureau. [b]Welfare dependancy:[/b] [url=http://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2015/zeven-van-de-tien-somaliers-in-de-bijstand.htm]CentralBureauStatistics: Welfare[/url] 17% of Turks receive immigrants welfare. 25% of Maroccans immigrants receive welfare. 69% of Somalians immigrants receive welfare. 58% of Iraquees immigrants receive welfare. 62% of Syrians immigrants receive welfare. 46% of Afghanist immigrants receive welfare. 42% of Iranians immigrants receive welfare. 50% of Eritreans immigrants receive welfare. How about immigrants from other area's? Only [b]2%[/b] of polish immigrants receive welfare. How about the natives? Only [b]3%[/b] receive welfare. [b]Criminality[/b] Maroccan-Dutchmen are 5.8 times as often criminal than Western-immigrants, and 6.2 times as criminal as the natives. I'll look up the source if you want, but it's very close to those numbers. I will be having friends over... its friday night so I'll be back tomorrow. You can't honestly think these are numbers of healthy integration can you? You are seriously suggesting calling me a racist, and stopping the discussion and leaving this be is better???? We should fix this. Not only because they are a massive burden on the Dutch taxpayers, but also because these people are incredibly unhappy themselves in their current social position. We need to fix this asap, and you're sabotaging the discussion every step of the way by your childish racism accusations.[/QUOTE]

And why is it that 63% of prisoners in Netherlands are immigrants? How many immigrants do the Netherlands have and how many % of them are prisoners is a much more relevant question. I have never argued that the integration problems don't exist but he also didn't give any reasoning as to how those statistics justify him generalizing millions of people. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] I just don't see the logic in his argument where he says we shouldn't spend collective tax money on integrating immigrants and then go "We should fix this.", how exactly? Spend that money on security and keeping refugees out instead? Is that how we fix the integration problems? It wouldn't be about letting them in if we want to take in less of them, it would be about keeping them out.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203639]And why is it that 63% of prisoners in Netherlands are immigrants? How many immigrants do the Netherlands have and how many % of them are prisoners is a much more relevant question. I have never argued that the integration problems don't exist?[/QUOTE] You're kind of getting to the root of the issue. I'm not sure anyone actually knows exactly why that's the case. Plenty of people are willing to provide baseless assertions to fill the gap, but I have yet to hear anything backed up by evidence. I can't find any recent statistics on current ethnic populations, but going by 2009 numbers it's sub 10% of the population. So for that group to make up 63% of the prison population is highly disproportionate. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203639]I just don't see the logic in his argument where he says we shouldn't spend collective tax money on integrating immigrants and then go "We should fix this.", how exactly? Spend that money on security and keeping refugees out instead? Is that how we fix the integration problems? It wouldn't be about letting them in if we want to take in less of them, it would be about keeping them out.[/QUOTE] Money isn't magical. You can't fix problems by just throwing it at stuff. I think the issue is that no one actually knows how to fix the problem with immigrant integration. People want to keep them out because they see no alternative. Which is hardly surprising, since the issue is barely ever addressed in any meaningful capacity.

There is already a lot of immigrant and muslim hate in Europe, and it's obvious that Rumbler was never trying to have an open discussion to figure out how to solve the issues that come with immigration but only post stuff that has an emotional effect on people to encourage that hate, you have several examples of people in this thread saying "refugees do this and that" and then it took 4 pages before anyone actually posted any statistics that are supposed to support their claim.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49203689]Money isn't magical. You can't fix problems by just throwing it at stuff. I think the issue is that no one actually knows how to fix the problem with immigrant integration. People want to keep them out because they see no alternative. Which is hardly surprising, since the issue is barely ever addressed in any meaningful capacity.[/QUOTE] You're right, money won't automatically fix the problems, but Europe hasn't spent a lot of money in the first place relative to what they've spent on security, and the reason this is an issue in the first place is because everybody wants to keep them out.

Here's the thing about statistics. They don't inform how you treat individuals. But they do inform how you treat populations. We're talking about big society wide decisions, with far reaching consequences for millions of people. You can't just ignore that the majority of an incoming population is probably going to be on welfare, or will commit more crime than other populations. You need to spend money dealing with that, which will in turn have an impact on the quality of life of all your citizens. That's just the reality of managing a country.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203742]There is already a lot of immigrant and muslim hate in Europe, and it's obvious that Rumbler was never trying to have an open discussion to figure out how to solve the issues that come with immigration but only post stuff that has an emotional effect on people to encourage that hate, you have several examples of people in this thread saying "refugees do this and that" and then it took 4 pages before anyone actually posted any statistics that are supposed to support their claim.[/QUOTE] I don't really care how long it took him or how he words what he says. He made a claim, and he(eventually) supported it with fact. That's all that ultimately matters. If you can't do the same, or refute his evidence, then your argument is weaker than his.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49203761]Here's the thing about statistics. They don't inform how you treat individuals. But they do inform how you treat populations. We're talking about big society wide decisions, with far reaching consequences for millions of people. You can't just ignore that the majority of an incoming population is probably going to be on welfare, or will commit more crime than other populations. You need to spend money dealing with that, which will in turn have an impact on the quality of life of all your citizens. That's just the reality of managing a country.[/QUOTE] I have never argued that problems don't exist, I'm just arguing that they can be dealt with.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203760]You're right, money won't automatically fix the problems, but Europe hasn't spent a lot of money in the first place relative to what they've spent on security, and the reason this is an issue in the first place is because everybody wants to keep them out.[/QUOTE] Again, I've heard this assertion before, but I have yet to see it backed up with evidence. What leads you to believe that the crime and welfare statistics for middle eastern ethnic populations in the Netherlands are caused by some form of discrimination? because if you can show me what this discrimination is and where it occurs then we can move towards solving it

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49203768]I don't really care how long it took him or how he words what he says. He made a claim, and he(eventually) supported it with fact. That's all that ultimately matters. If you can't do the same, or refute his evidence, then your argument is weaker than his.[/QUOTE] I don't see how these statistics support his argument that governments shouldn't spend resources on immigrants?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49203770]I have never argued that problems don't exist, I'm just arguing that they can be dealt with.[/QUOTE] You know, I really would like to agree with you. I don't consider myself anti-immigration, far from. But I have yet to see a feasible solution presented. I have seen at best spurious accusations of discrimination. And that doesn't help anyone solve the problem. And as long as the problem remains unsolved, anti-immigration sentiment will continue to build.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49203775]Again, I've heard this assertion before, but I have yet to see it backed up with evidence. What leads you to believe that the crime and welfare statistics for middle eastern ethnic populations in the Netherlands are caused by some form of discrimination? because if you can show me what this discrimination is and where it occurs then we can move towards solving it[/QUOTE] Because the majority of middle eastern ethnic populations are actually not criminals in the first place? [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49203787]You know, I really would like to agree with you. I don't consider myself anti-immigration, far from. But I have yet to see a feasible solution presented. I have seen at best spurious accusations of discrimination. And that doesn't help anyone solve the problem. And as long as the problem remains unsolved, anti-immigration sentiment will continue to build.[/QUOTE] Here's a solution, spread the refugees out over Europe and even send some to the US and Australia.