My sister works with the Salvation Army helping people like this out, she's had quite a few interesting incidents. I can see friends and that maybe not interfering from uncertainty but if the bartender or bouncers didn't cut her off and send her home with a friend they'd be legally culpable here.
There was a bit of press around Anna Johnson going to a UN something or other recently, mentioned about women being uncertain on what consent means and the same goes for men, it's definitely something I'd put in the sex ed curriculum.. I mean look at some people in this thread thinking a few drinks and a taxi ride entitles you to a fuck, that's not how it works.
[QUOTE=JimmyRobot;40339531]Tbh. I fucking hate girls that gets home with you then just flat out refuses having sex with you, like, why did you even follow me home? To cuddle?[/QUOTE]
you do not have an inalienable right to sex. it may be refused at any time for any reason
holy shit, thats chad warden in "The Stranger" part
still ballin, that ps triple got the bitches
[QUOTE=Devodiere;40340704]There was a bit of press around Anna Johnson going to a UN something or other recently, mentioned about women being uncertain on what consent means and the same goes for men, it's definitely something I'd put in the sex ed curriculum.. I mean look at some people in this thread thinking a few drinks and a taxi ride entitles you to a fuck, that's not how it works.[/QUOTE]
That's a great idea, we should be teaching consent to high schoolers, I don't recall it ever being discussed that much.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;40339078]Because it's pointless victim blaming.
you guys are gross, did you watch the video? you think that she's capable of consenting or that the dudes just as drunk?[/QUOTE]
its hardly blaming the victim
but its true
it sucks, but it is true. you can't get black out drunk at clubs and expect to be safe. its NOT her fault anything like this happened, but it still doesn't change the fact you shouldn't get black out drunk at dangerous situations like this.
I think rape is pretty much none existent given todays society full of slags.
Mild joke.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;40341391]its hardly blaming the victim
but its true
it sucks, but it is true. you can't get black out drunk at clubs and expect to be safe. its NOT her fault anything like this happened, but it still doesn't change the fact you shouldn't get black out drunk at dangerous situations like this.[/QUOTE]
Whether you should or shouldn't get fucked up in a party isn't really the issue. The real problem is that people use that logic to put blame on the victim. It's disgusting and insensitive.
Like, shit, if someone has their way with me while I'm passed out [I]the first thing[/I] I'd think would be "oh shit I fucked up real bad here, I shouldn't have done X". They know that already. You don't need to make someone feel like shit even more after they've been through something as traumatic as rape. It's called empathy.
Imagine you're walking around in the middle of the night and you get mugged. Was it ill advised to walk alone in the middle of the night? Yes. Was it your fault? No, it was the mugger's fault. You already feel like shit over what happened, you don't need people to start telling you how stupid you are for getting mugged because [I]it wasn't your fault.[/I]
The problem isn't just people taking advantage of people who are so drunk they can no longer object or make rational decisions because they are out of it, the problem is letting yourself get to that point. Regardless of how fun you think it is, it is dangerous and irresponsible and you're only putting yourself and others at risk by doing it.
I'm not opposed to the idea of informing people that someone in this kind of state cannot give consent, therefore when you are in a considerably better state of mind to have sex with them is to take advantage of their current state and is therefore rape, because there are probably people who are not aware of this.
I am opposed to the video not mentioning a little thing called personal responsibility though, the winding back of events to show what could be done to prevent the situation goes back to every person EXCEPT to the girl herself, where's the bit where it shows the alternate scenario where she just didn't get shitfaced? Maybe I missed it, is there a follow up video? I dunno.
[editline]19th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40342945]Whether you should or shouldn't get fucked up in a party isn't really the issue. The real problem is that people use that logic to put blame on the victim. It's disgusting and insensitive.[/quote]
The problem with when people say, "You should have done X", is that they don't immediately follow it up with "but the other person is still a criminal." The reason why this is so is I imagine for some people, that they genuinely believe the person who did the raping is not at fault, but I think people who hold this view are a minority, the real reason why people don't follow up with that line, is because to say that the person is a criminal is redundant, he/she is, it shouldn't need to be said but since people are making this mistake maybe it should be.
[quote]Like, shit, if someone has their way with me while I'm passed out [I]the first thing[/I] I'd think would be "oh shit I fucked up real bad here, I shouldn't have done X".[/quote]
If someone took advantage of me while I'm passed out and I passed out because of my own actions, I'd blame myself because it IS my fault I was passed out and in a situation where I could easily be taken advantage of. I'd still blame the person who took advantage of me but I would not be so blind as to alleviate myself of all responsibility.
[quote]You don't need to make someone feel like shit even more after they've been through something as traumatic as rape. It's called empathy.[/quote]
If they did something irresponsible, it is your duty to inform them so that they can not do it in the future.
[quote]Imagine you're walking around in the middle of the night and you get mugged. Was it ill advised to walk alone in the middle of the night?[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]Was it your fault?[/quote]
It was the mugger's fault, but also you are responsible for your own safety, only when you take a reasonable number of steps to make sure something doesn't occur are you free of blame. That does not justify the actions of the criminal, but neither does it alleviate you of responsibility.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40342945]Whether you should or shouldn't get fucked up in a party isn't really the issue. The real problem is that people use that logic to put blame on the victim. It's disgusting and insensitive.
Like, shit, if someone has their way with me while I'm passed out [I]the first thing[/I] I'd think would be "oh shit I fucked up real bad here, I shouldn't have done X". They know that already. You don't need to make someone feel like shit even more after they've been through something as traumatic as rape. It's called empathy.
Imagine you're walking around in the middle of the night and you get mugged. Was it ill advised to walk alone in the middle of the night? Yes. Was it your fault? No, it was the mugger's fault. You already feel like shit over what happened, you don't need people to start telling you how stupid you are for getting mugged because [I]it wasn't your fault.[/I][/QUOTE]
A guy said that if people didn't put themselves in those situations there would be less rapes, to which you replied that they shouldn't be afraid of someone taking advantage of them. You're acting like just because nobody should take advantage of you it's a good idea to put yourself in a position where there's a high risk that you will be taken advantage of. It's stupid. You are blindly defending idiots who put themselves in very risky situations and get the consequences of it. You can't just drink with strangers till you black out and think it's not dangerous. If I'd go to a party where I don't know anyone, get fucking hammered and wake up without my phone and my wallet, I'd be to blame. The other guy is still a thief but it was my foolishness that made it happen. I have put myself in a dangerous situation, which I could have avoided and the risk is easy to foresee.
Stop excusing this sort of behavior. You are making it look like it's okay to drink till you black out and that you're not to blame if something happens to you when you do that. That it's not a bad thing. Someone might get fucking hurt if he follows that mindset.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40343325]A guy said that if people didn't put themselves in those situations there would be less rapes, to which you replied that they shouldn't be afraid of someone taking advantage of them. You're acting like just because nobody should take advantage of you it's a good idea to put yourself in a position where there's a high risk that you will be taken advantage of. It's stupid. You are blindly defending idiots who put themselves in very risky situations and get the consequences of it. You can't just drink with strangers till you black out and think it's not dangerous. If I'd go to a party where I don't know anyone, get fucking hammered and wake up without my phone and my wallet, I'd be to blame. The other guy is still a thief but it was my foolishness that made it happen. I have put myself in a dangerous situation, which I could have avoided and the risk is easy to foresee.
Stop excusing this sort of behavior. You are making it look like it's okay to drink till you black out and that you're not to blame if something happens to you when you do that. That it's not a bad thing. Someone might get fucking hurt if he follows that mindset.[/QUOTE]
Where did I say it's okay/safe for people to get wasted with strangers? I'm not excusing stupid behavior or completely exempting people of their responsibility. I'm saying that blame should be put where blame is due.
There's a difference between saying "you're irresponsible for doing this" and "this is your fault". One is informing the person of their mistake, and the other is unnecessarily putting blame on the victim.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40343436]There's a difference between saying "you're irresponsible for doing this" and "this is your fault". One is informing the person of their mistake, and the other is unnecessarily putting blame on the victim.[/QUOTE]
The problem with when people say, "you shouldn't blame her/him you should blame the criminal", is that they don't immediately follow it up with "but there are steps you could have taken to avoid this." The reason why this is so is I imagine for some people, that they genuinely believe the person who put themselves in that situation is free of responsibility, but I think people who hold this view are a minority, the real reason why people don't follow up with that line, is because to say that the person is a irresponsible when they do this is redundant, they are, it shouldn't need to be said but since people are making this mistake maybe it should be.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40343436]Where did I say it's okay/safe for people to get wasted with strangers? I'm not excusing stupid behavior or completely exempting people of their responsibility. I'm saying that blame should be put where blame is due.
There's a difference between saying "you're irresponsible for doing this" and "this is your fault". One is informing the person of their mistake, and the other is unnecessarily putting blame on the victim.[/QUOTE]
You are arguing against people who say that SHE, herself, could have easily avoided the entire situation.
Even the video follows this mindset. 50 people around her should have stopped this from happening but not her. No sir, she can drink till she can't fucking tell what's going on and that's okay. The friend, the stranger, the roommate, the bartender, everyone's to blame but not the one who gets hammered with strangers...
And it is her fault - for putting herself in a dangerous situation, for not being careful enough, NOT for the rape itself. The rapist is still a rapist.
[QUOTE=Riutet;40343499]The problem with when people say, "you shouldn't blame her/him you should blame the criminal", is that they don't immediately follow it up with "but there are steps you could have taken to avoid this." The reason why this is so is I imagine for some people, that they genuinely believe the person who put themselves in that situation is free of responsibility, but I think people who hold this view are a minority, the real reason why people don't follow up with that line, is because to say that the person is a irresponsible when they do this is redundant, they are, it shouldn't need to be said but since people are making this mistake maybe it should be.[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree. But my main point is that people should learn from their mistakes, not be shamed for them. Which is sadly an extremely widespread practice. Even in Facepunch.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40343540]You are arguing against people who say that SHE, herself, could have easily avoided the entire situation.
Even the video follows this mindset. 50 people around her should have stopped this from happening but not her. No sir, she can drink till she can't fucking tell what's going on and that's okay. The friend, the stranger, the roommate, the bartender, everyone's to blame but not the one who gets hammered with strangers...
And it is her fault - for putting herself in a dangerous situation, for not being careful enough, NOT for the rape itself. The rapist is still a rapist.[/QUOTE]
If you think that's the point of the video then I'm sorry to inform you that you totally missed it.
The woman in the video got drunk, fine, it was irresponsible of her, but she was no longer in a condition that allowed her to act as she normally would and thus wasn't capable of refusing the guy's advances. The point of the video was to tell you that you should intervene when you see shit like this happening. The video never said "you should totally do this it's okay", it never said "it's everyone's responsibility but yours", it said "act and don't be apathetic".
The point of this video was never to justify the dangerous behavior seen in it or whatever you think it's doing, stop making shit up.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40343550]I don't disagree. But my main point is that people should learn from their mistakes, not be shamed for them. Which is sadly an extremely widespread practice. Even in Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
People should also learn from other people's mistakes. That's why it should be pointed out that getting drunk with strangers puts you in a dangerous situation. So that people don't do that.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40343325]A guy said that if people didn't put themselves in those situations there would be less rapes, to which you replied that they shouldn't be afraid of someone taking advantage of them. You're acting like just because nobody should take advantage of you it's a good idea to put yourself in a position where there's a high risk that you will be taken advantage of. It's stupid. You are blindly defending idiots who put themselves in very risky situations and get the consequences of it. You can't just drink with strangers till you black out and think it's not dangerous. If I'd go to a party where I don't know anyone, get fucking hammered and wake up without my phone and my wallet, I'd be to blame. The other guy is still a thief but it was my foolishness that made it happen. I have put myself in a dangerous situation, which I could have avoided and the risk is easy to foresee.
Stop excusing this sort of behavior. You are making it look like it's okay to drink till you black out and that you're not to blame if something happens to you when you do that. That it's not a bad thing. Someone might get fucking hurt if he follows that mindset.[/QUOTE]
so you shouldn't be able to do anything you like because there's a risk you could get shot or raped? what kind of logic is that.
[editline]19th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40343641]People should also learn from other people's mistakes. That's why it should be pointed out that getting drunk with strangers puts you in a dangerous situation. So that people don't do that.[/QUOTE]
the majority of rapists known their victims beforehand
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40343550]If you think that's the point of the video then I'm sorry to inform you that you totally missed it.
The woman in the video got drunk, fine, it was irresponsible of her, but she was no longer in a condition that allowed her to act as she normally would and thus wasn't capable of refusing the guy's advances. The point of the video was to tell you that you should intervene when you see shit like this happening. The video never said "you should totally do this it's okay", it never said "it's everyone's responsibility but yours", it said "act and don't be apathetic".
The point of this video was never to justify the dangerous behavior seen in it or whatever you think it's doing, stop making shit up.[/QUOTE]
Never said that's the point of the video stop making shit up.
The point of the video was to show that other people should act to stop a potential rape, but it didn't have the part when it shows that the girl was also capable of stopping it. Thus unintentionally giving the idea that many people can stop the rape from happening but the girl herself.
the girl was capable of stopping it? woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow hahahaha
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;40343757]so you shouldn't be able to do anything you like because there's a risk you could get shot or raped? what kind of logic is that.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that you shouldn't be oblivious of the risk, that's it.
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;40343757]the majority of rapists known their victims beforehand[/QUOTE]
Getting blacked out drunk is never a good idea unless you really trust people you're with. Otherwise you can get hurt, and you've got to be an idiot not to understand that.
[editline]19th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;40343848]the girl was capable of stopping it? woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow hahahaha[/QUOTE]
Well yeah. Unless someone has forced the alcohol down her throat she could have avoided the entire situation where she's in a condition where she's not capable of taking care of herself or making decissions. No?
it's totally her fault you're right my bad
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;40343944]it's totally her fault you're right my bad[/QUOTE]
I know you have terrible problems with reading but do try.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40343540]And it is her fault - for putting herself in a dangerous situation, for not being careful enough, NOT for the rape itself. The rapist is still a rapist.[/QUOTE]
Also I'm waiting for you gestapo to tell me who forced her to be in a state of mind where she can be taken advantage of. That's what I've meant when I said that she could have stopped it from happening too.
What if the girl was fine and everyone was cock blocking him
I don't think it is very common for people to intentionally get 'blackout' drunk, rather 1 drink leads to another. I've only really had a couple nights that I can't remember and one was because I didn't keep to my limits because I'd already drunk too much. I didn't sit there and go "let's drink so much I don't remember anything in the morning" and then start necking vodka, I was just having a good time with my friends.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40344011]I know you have terrible problems with reading but do try.
Also I'm waiting for you gestapo to tell me who forced her to be in a state of mind where she can be taken advantage of. That's what I've meant when I said that she could have stopped it from happening too.[/QUOTE]
yeah you're right we're the bad guys and she should know better than to get raped the dumb bitch!
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40344011]
Also I'm waiting for you gestapo to tell me who forced her to be in a state of mind where she can be taken advantage of. That's what I've meant when I said that she could have stopped it from happening too.[/QUOTE]
Um, did you miss the part when the guy kept giving her drinks until she was piss drunk? No one ever said she was forced to get drunk, she was manipulated. It's different.
Sure, she could and should have stopped accepting drinks from a random guy, but not everyone has the same level of alcohol tolerance. People don't black out intentionally, one drink usually leads to another and so on.
But of course, an experienced socialite such as yourself would already know all this.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40344683]Um, did you miss the part when the guy kept giving her drinks until she was piss drunk? No one ever said she was forced to get drunk, she was manipulated. It's different.
Sure, she could and should have stopped accepting drinks from a random guy, but not everyone has the same level of alcohol tolerance. People don't black out intentionally, one drink usually leads to another and so on. [/QUOTE]
How about not accepting drinks from random people? How about giving yourself a limit of drinks you're gonna drink that night? Or if you can't limit yourself at all when drinking (or you intend to get smashed) then do it with people you trust. Otherwise you're putting yourself in danger. How hard is it to comprehend? I'm a guy and even I follow these rules.
And again you are excusing her. So now we have a girl who can't deny drinks and keeps drinking them to a point when she's in a state of mind where she's not able to make decisions for herself. Apparently there's literally nothing a girl can do not to be completely drunk and taken advantage of.
0 responsibility, 0 control of your own actions, whatever happens to you it's not your fault, there was nothing you could do to avoid it, only other people are to blame, drink everything that's put in front of you with people you don't know, yolo.
[editline]19th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;40344631]yeah you're right we're the bad guys and she should know better than to get raped the dumb bitch![/QUOTE]
I see you still didn't read that. Irredeemable.
yep her fault entirely
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;40344934]yep her fault entirely[/QUOTE]
No it's not. You can keep replying like that's what I'm saying but it's not gonna change the fact that I'm not.
I mean, you are so dumb... You don't even read 90% of what I'm saying you just see that I'm criticizing her, so that automatically must mean that I think it's only her fault and she deserved it or whatever.
There is absolutely zero fault on the woman in this video. The possible ability to stop something doesn't put blame in your hands. You are pointlessly blaming the victim.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;40345144]There is absolutely zero fault on the woman in this video. The possible ability to stop something doesn't put blame in your hands. You are pointlessly blaming the victim.[/QUOTE]
Then there's absolutely zero fault on the friend, bartender, stranger and roommate too.
But the video tells them all to act when they see that. She could have acted too. Just ealier before she got drunk. That's it.
Putting yourself in a dangerous situation or not being careful enough when risk can be foreseen is highly irresponsible and you might get yourself hurt.
[editline]19th April 2013[/editline]
And please people for fuck's sake. Stop excusing this sort of behavior. You are gonna give someone an idea that it's okay to accept drinks from random people and get smashed with strangers.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40345200]Then there's absolutely zero fault on the friend, bartender, stranger and roommate too.[/QUOTE]You're right! It sure is a good thing when you stop someone from getting raped, though. (actually I think the bartender has a legal obligation here tbh)
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40345200]
But the video tells them all to act when they see that. She could have acted too. Just ealier before she got drunk. That's it.[/QUOTE]Yeah she could have not gotten drunk, so what? I guess she's never allowed to get drunk because some rapist might rape her.
No. Just no.
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