[QUOTE=Mingebox;44046984]EM and Ubisoft's could have always just made a new franchise. But they didn't. You don't just look up some old franchise on Wikipedia so you can make up some easy brand recognition money. When you make a reboot, you have a duty to make sure the game stays faithful to the core elements that made the previous games great, because if you can't do that, there's no point in rebooting it at all.[/QUOTE]
not to mention when you throw out about 70% of the orginal plot (the pagans and mystic stuff), what the fuck is the point at all of attaching the name. its like making a reboot of elderscrolls only to remove the elderscrolls entirely.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;44047058]not to mention when you throw out about 70% of the orginal plot (the pagans and mystic stuff), what the fuck is the point at all of attaching the name. its like making a reboot of [B]elderscrolls only to remove the elderscrolls entirely[/B].[/QUOTE]
no it would be like rebooting the elder scrolls and removing all the magic
or fallout without any mention of the vaults or Enclave
Thing is, you can't make the same game and expect to hold up in the modern game industry. It's like people bashing Diablo 3, the dynamic has shifted, the old fan base has died off some, making the same game won't bring in new players from other fanbases. Your average kid that plays nothing but CoD and Battlefield isn't going to take well to tough stealth games like Thief or gruelling dungeon crawlers like Diablo, games just aren't as hard as they used to be and attention spans aren't what they used to be and developers have to account for that. What some of you might call 'dumbed down' is just catering to new audiences (usually).
Imagine a AAA company putting out something as hard as older NES/SNES games like Altered Beast and the like (to me, anyway) and imagine how badly that's going to go.
Maybe it's just me but the game industry has coddled gamers too much. We're seeing another shift back with games like Dark Souls but that hasn't picked up a lot of steam yet so this is something we'll have to deal with for now. Take games and enjoy them with a fresh mind, not 'this is too easy and linear and nothing like the originals.'
[QUOTE=DeVotchKa;44047134]Thing is, you can't make the same game and expect to hold up in the modern game industry. It's like people bashing Diablo 3, the dynamic has shifted, the old fan base has died off some, making the same game won't bring in new players from other fanbases. Your average kid that plays nothing but CoD and Battlefield isn't going to take well to tough stealth games like Thief or gruelling dungeon crawlers like Diablo, games just aren't as hard as they used to be and attention spans aren't what they used to be and developers have to account for that. What some of you might call 'dumbed down' is just catering to new audiences (usually).
Imagine a AAA company putting out something as hard as older NES/SNES games like Altered Beast and the like (to me, anyway) and imagine how badly that's going to go.
Maybe it's just me but the game industry has coddled gamers too much. We're seeing another shift back with games like Dark Souls but that hasn't picked up a lot of steam yet so this is something we'll have to deal with for now. Take games and enjoy them with a fresh mind, not 'this is too easy and linear and nothing like the originals.'[/QUOTE]
Thats not true at all.
Most recent example I can think of would be something like Demon/Dark Souls, especially Dark Souls since its not exclusive.
I really cant think of a better modern example of a developer that didnt fall into the stupid notion that players are a bunch of idiots. People love Dark Souls, all types of gamers love it, it was a big success and that game had zero hand holding.
I really hate the excuse "Well its not the 80s/90s anymore!" as if that fucking excuses making a shallow game.
Trust me, I think a modernized Thief could have been fantastic, I can admit that the old ones had some clunk to them, hell the Dark Engine was always reviewed as clunky even back in the day.
Modernization doesnt mean quest makers, hand holding, dumbed down, easier games, which sadly developers seem to think it does.
It means fixing of the old archaic designs, things like Thief 1/2 starting off with shitty binds that make no sense, I dont even know what the devs were thinking.
Hell I can even say with as much as I love Thief 1/2, I can say there were a few really just overly complex levels. Ill use The Lost City from Thief 1 as an example.
First off, here is the fucking map.
[IMG]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703162346/thief/images/c/c5/TG_M9_map_PAGE001.jpg[/IMG]
Its essentially useless, I forget if any of the map lines up with the level, I know the map is an ancient map you get and extremely out of date in the context of the game.
Anyways, so here you have this fucking map with nothing useful on it, dropped in one of the biggest and most complex levels in all of Thief, with possibly The Maw over it, and you gotta go find some shit and then find your way back.
Personally, I love the entire concept of this mission, you truly lost, the developers made this intentional, but this type of level is extremely niche, even to fans of Thief.
So the devs knew this and didnt make shit as absurd as that in Thief 2 and it paid off, especially since Thief 2 is normally agreed to have much better level design than 1.
Now this type of level is something I never would have dreamed about being in the new Thief, its an outdated concept that like I said, was a niche even in its own nichey game, and im not mad or anything that its not in the new Thief, I never would have expected it and I can never hold it against them, those types of levels are old fashioned.
But that doesnt mean they have to turn everything into some linear as fuck hand holding experience thats piss easy.
I never expected Thief to hold up to the originals, its not possible, but just because you say that you shouldnt expect that doesnt excuse poor design choices that ultimately hurt the game.
I sucked up my pride and got it so I could sit down and play it but you know somethings wrong when I had to turn off the music because it was ruining the entire experience, its not that the music itself is bad on its own, its that it doesnt fit at all.
All I could do while looking around in the city was imagine how great it could have been with better level design and actual rope arrows and jumping, instead im locked down to the fucking ground and only allowed to go where the developers intended me to go.
Which is the biggest flaw to this entire game, Thief was ALWAYS about your path and doing the unintended. Instead I go where the developers want me to go instead of letting me decide where I go.
i don't get how you can praise deus ex hr and bag on thief.
look at the level designs for both games and tell me just how many ways can you actually go about going from point a to point b in both games.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;44047495]
Hell I can even say with as much as I love Thief 1/2, I can say there were a few really just overly complex levels. Ill use The Lost City from Thief 1 as an example.
First off, here is the fucking map.
[IMG]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703162346/thief/images/c/c5/TG_M9_map_PAGE001.jpg[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
seriously fuck that level
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44047516]i don't get how you can praise deus ex hr and bag on thief.
look at the level designs for both games and tell me just how many ways can you actually go about going from point a to point b in both games.[/QUOTE]
I dont praise Deus ex HR for its level design, but its far better than Thiefs.
Also HR is very faithful to Deus Ex and it doesnt sacrifice game-play for "modernization".
Hell it improves upon aspects of the gameplay, the new Thief doesnt in anyway I have seen at all while playing.
Only thing I can think of that Deus Ex HR does worse than Deus EX is how dynamic and organic choices are, its level design, and story. Hell Human Revolution got it right on how to bring an old game up to modern standards.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;44036618]Deus Ex is probably my favorite game of all time but I would be lying to you if I said it didn't look like shit.[/QUOTE]
Deus Ex certainly hasn't been known for it's graphics.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44047516]i don't get how you can praise deus ex hr and bag on thief.
look at the level designs for both games and tell me just how many ways can you actually go about going from point a to point b in both games.[/QUOTE]
HR felt like it had multiple paths with how you can proceed the level. Thief looks exactly like A or B with A being the better option period. the original deus ex the the same as HR with multiple but they all led to the goal with each having benefits or negatives according to how you play. the old thieves just threw you into the level and you had to figure out the easiest way just like Hr/Deus ex. there is no real massive hints to whats easier and the levels are much more open thanks to not being glued to the ground (especially in thief with the rope arrows). the new thief does do some things right, but also takes massive steps backwards compared to the old ones, mainly freedom which is a big thing with stealth games.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44047516]i don't get how you can praise deus ex hr and bag on thief.
look at the level designs for both games and tell me just how many ways can you actually go about going from point a to point b in both games.[/QUOTE]
HR starts out with fairly cramped up level design (the prologue mission is essentially just one long corridor and the actual tutorial mission is very linear) but it very quickly explodes and becomes bigger and bigger. The last levels in the game are actually tough as shit because they're fairly massive. It makes sense considering the aug system allows more and more stuff to be done as you progress and the level design reflects that by giving you more and more options to go with what you may or may not have upgraded. Like, the only time where one option is absolutely superior to any other option in the entire game is if I recall correctly in the tutorial mission at the Sarif plant where the game teaches you how branching paths work and make it clear that generally speaking taking the less obvious and possibly longer route is usually better if it's safer.
Also despite dumbing things down a bit HR did a wonderful job at staying true to the original, and one could argue the simpler mechanics (no more typical rpg stats, less augs) actually benefited the game a lot since the original one was one of those games that was a massive clusterfuck of information and that had really fucking annoying balancing issues where leveling a certain stat and not another would fuck up your playthrough, so HR improved the formula by quite a lot. Only downside is, the absence of melee weapons is kind of a bummer especially since you now have to rely on the godawful takedown system which was in my opinion really badly designed.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44048286]Only downside is, the absence of melee weapons is kind of a bummer especially since you now have to rely on the godawful takedown system which was in my opinion really badly designed.[/QUOTE]
Might be awfully designed but it sure looks fucking awesome when using it each time.
I still hope that we can do proper melee in Deus Next. Even if we don't get another Dragon's Tooth Sword, at least let us actively kung-fu folks.
[QUOTE=Pappi_man;44048430]Might be awfully designed but it sure looks fucking awesome when using it each time.[/QUOTE]
It looks cool, but even the most awesome thing ever can get tiresome if you have to sit through it every time.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44048286]HR starts out with fairly cramped up level design (the prologue mission is essentially just one long corridor and the actual tutorial mission is very linear) but it very quickly explodes and becomes bigger and bigger. The last levels in the game are actually tough as shit because they're fairly massive. It makes sense considering the aug system allows more and more stuff to be done as you progress and the level design reflects that by giving you more and more options to go with what you may or may not have upgraded. Like, the only time where one option is absolutely superior to any other option in the entire game is if I recall correctly in the tutorial mission at the Sarif plant where the game teaches you how branching paths work and make it clear that generally speaking taking the less obvious and possibly longer route is usually better if it's safer.
Also despite dumbing things down a bit HR did a wonderful job at staying true to the original, and one could argue the simpler mechanics (no more typical rpg stats, less augs) actually benefited the game a lot since the original one was one of those games that was a massive clusterfuck of information and that had really fucking annoying balancing issues where leveling a certain stat and not another would fuck up your playthrough, so HR improved the formula by quite a lot. Only downside is, the absence of melee weapons is kind of a bummer especially since you now have to rely on the godawful takedown system which was in my opinion really badly designed.[/QUOTE]
but i liked my swimming strat.
[QUOTE=Pappi_man;44048430]Might be awfully designed but it sure looks fucking awesome when using it each time.[/QUOTE]
The first few times sure then it starts getting repetitive because there is like five animations max for each takedown type (front/behind, lethal/non-lethal) and some of them don't even make sense, like when you take down a street thug and suddenly he starts doing kung-fu.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;44046246]Hell, you cant even move freely in a 3D plane, you are locked down to the ground and contextual movement, that alone is just a huge, unnecessary step backwards.[/QUOTE]
This is bullshit because in the other games jumping anywhere at anytime was a great way to distract guards.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;44048818]This is bullshit because in the other games jumping anywhere at anytime was a great way to distract guards.[/QUOTE]
The fuck you on about, are you really gonna try and defend that shit?
Plus thats not true at all, maybe if you were fucking awful.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44048745]The first few times sure then it starts getting repetitive because there is like five animations max for each takedown type (front/behind, lethal/non-lethal) and some of them don't even make sense, like when you take down a street thug and suddenly he starts doing kung-fu.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, with the way they balanced the game, either powerful melee weapons or the takedowns would've been the only way to make any sort of melee combat reasonable least you die from a second of gunfire at point-blank. I don't like the takedowns much myself but with how stiff Human Revolution's combat can already feel with the guns sometimes, I doubt they'd of been able to do things like batons, knives or a Dragon's Tooth Sword equivalent much justice for melee combat.
[QUOTE=RikohZX;44048958]Unfortunately, with the way they balanced the game, either powerful melee weapons or the takedowns would've been the only way to make any sort of melee combat reasonable least you die from a second of gunfire at point-blank. I don't like the takedowns much myself but with how stiff Human Revolution's combat can already feel with the guns sometimes, I doubt they'd of been able to do things like batons, knives or a Dragon's Tooth Sword equivalent much justice for melee combat.[/QUOTE]
Well just having a basic ability to grab stuff and bash people over the head with it from behind for an instant stun like in the original game would have been a much better alternative if only for the sake of repetitiveness.
The best way to handle it in my opinion would have been to make takedowns much more silent and safe and make using a weapon or objects faster but louder.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;44048899]The fuck you on about, are you really gonna try and defend that shit?
Plus thats not true at all, maybe if you were fucking awful.[/QUOTE]
Wait, you're mad at me for defending jumping at will? I'm fucking confused.
I disagree, I've used jumping to make noise and lure a guard out of an area so I could sneak past. Is it the best strat? Probably not, but it saves noisemaker arrows and helps when there is nothing to throw. Maybe i'm just odd, I dunno, but why are you so hostile about it when I'm on your fucking side?
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;44046439]I wouldn't call it dead so soon. It seemed like from the first time we saw anything, however, people had the mindset that this Thief was going to be shit and an insult to Thief. There are plenty of objective criticisms, but it does still feel a little bit like bias, and nobody is going to want to make a new Thief game either if it immediately gets pounced and picked apart by old fans.
Not being able to jump is always a shitty thing, so I'm not going to bother defending that.
I think maybe the better thing to have done is just make another stealth thieving series. That way we can go into it with a clean mindset, with no expectations. The Thief name has shown to carry with it very stringent expectations of what will be received.
I don't know, I just want new stealth games, and I want Thief 4 to be the game that makes that happen. I wish people had gone into Thief 4 with a positive and optimistic attitude rather than a negative one, and took it as it's own thing rather than weighing it up against what is certainly viewed with at least some level of rose tinted glasses the older games.[/QUOTE]
Well to be fair, that viewpoint really isn't because of rose-tinted nostalgia view of the originals - most of the Thief fans (hardcores included) were actually really hopeful about the new one at the beginning. (Probably in part due to the studio allegedly having worked on DX: HR - which we know now was a different division)
Then they announced it was just named thief (reboot of a series that had nothing bad about it - deadly shadows tried to appeal to more people by dropping the number but it did it without being a reboot) - and then they announce that they got rid of Stephen Russel - the voice actor that helped people and reviewers to like Garrett so much - and THEN on top of that they had an awful demonstration which barely showed any freedom, XP headshots, contextual jumping and climbing, and a highlight-all "see-through-walls" button - and they also had guards glitching out and walking through each other DURING the demo. (and lets be honest, contextual climbing is a pretty big regression from the previous games where you could literally dynamically climb anything that you could reach)
And then after that mostly just basic story trailers (and the story is apparently not that good - whereas Thief games are perhaps almost as known for their great plots as for stealth) and it also got flak for ripping off dishonored (which ironically is made by the actual original thief devs)
I'm not saying all that hate is justified, but without actually playing the game, the pre-release media didn't exactly paint a positive picture for people who have been waiting for so long for more.
And on TOP of that you have plenty of previews that were flat out disappointed with the game in the sessions they had been given to play too.
As much as I want to play this and hate to say it, I can't say I didn't expect this kind of reception from all the previews
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;44049673]Wait, you're mad at me for defending jumping at will? I'm fucking confused.
I disagree, I've used jumping to make noise and lure a guard out of an area so I could sneak past. Is it the best strat? Probably not, but it saves noisemaker arrows and helps when there is nothing to throw. Maybe i'm just odd, I dunno, but why are you so hostile about it when I'm on your fucking side?[/QUOTE]
Look at the wall and press R
you will knock your blackjack off of whatever you're looking at and cause noise.
Everything you'd want to climb, you can by being near it and pressing space. The only other thing that jumping allowed you to do is bug out of the map or bunnyhop around, neither of which are worth complaining about.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;44050038]Look at the wall and press R
you will knock your blackjack off of whatever you're looking at and cause noise.
Everything you'd want to climb, you can by being near it and pressing space. The only other thing that jumping allowed you to do is bug out of the map or bunnyhop around, neither of which are worth complaining about.[/QUOTE]
Id never see the day someone actually tried to defend the no jumping.
You clearly dont have any idea what you are talking about at all, once again.
[B]
"The only other thing that jumping allowed you to do is bug out of the map or bunnyhop around, neither of which are worth complaining about."
[/B]
I cannot believe you even said this, are you serious or just fucking around and going on a ruse cruise, because this entire statement is so awful.
Like I feel like you are just blindly praising Thief at this point with no actual good points at all, I would love to hear why no jumping is a good thing.
Your statement is so fucking flawed, so should every other game ever made not have jumping? Because apparently its only used for abusing bugs and getting outside the map right? Fuck me you should be a lead developer, I think you are onto something.
What about everything else jumping allowed you to do, like, jump across huge gaps and grab ledges, use smart jumps to quickly maneuver around?
What about making a noise near a ledge, baiting a guard to where you were, and jumping up the ledge to where the guard was?
What about using a speed potion+jumping to cover a gap to create your own path? Oh is that bugging the game now even though its using intended mechanics?
What about the hail mary that is speed+slowfall potion+jumping to make even more crazy paths?
Jumping is kind of necessary in any first person game that pretends to be open and to have branching paths for the mere fact that it actually gives the player freedom over where he goes. If he manages to climb over a certain ledge that leads to nowhere sucks for him but at least there is the pleasure of exploration and freedom which is greatly hurt in this game by the lack of jumping, making the game more linear.
There is a reason the devs of the original game thought up the climbing mechanics as a thing that works everywhere on everything, rather than a contextual system. They could have used ladders to show where you can climb, but instead they have decided to let the players go wherever they want and hop around as much as they want, and there's reason behind that decision. There is a reason why even a game such as Call of Duty has a jump button.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;44050038]Look at the wall and press R
you will knock your [B]blackjack off[/B] of whatever you're looking at and cause noise.
Everything you'd want to climb, you can by being near it and pressing space. [B]The only other thing that jumping allowed you to do is bug out of the map or bunnyhop around, neither of which are worth complaining about.[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I try to ghost levels sometimes so attacking people isn't a damn option so I make noise to lure guys away then sneak past.
This is utter horseshit. Hooded said it better than I could but I just had to say that this statement is so awful I just can't believe you actually said it.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;44050643]Sorry, but I try to ghost levels sometimes so attacking people isn't a damn option so I make noise to lure guys away then sneak past.
This is utter horseshit. Hooded said it better than I could but I just had to say that this statement is so awful I just can't believe you actually said it.[/QUOTE]
I didn't realize that knocking your club off of a wall was directly attacking someone?
[editline]26th February 2014[/editline]
W/ever yo, you can bitch and moan till the cows come home over menial shit like that, doesn't mean it's a bad game
have fun not having fun with anything
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;44050800]I didn't realize that knocking your club off of a wall was directly attacking someone?
[editline]26th February 2014[/editline]
W/ever yo, you can bitch and moan till the cows come home over menial shit like that, doesn't mean it's a bad game
have fun not having fun with anything[/QUOTE]
As I'm sure you know pressing R against a wall cause you to lie flat against the wall, face away from it, and holster your weapon thus making you unable to do anything except move and look around.
And yeah you could smack a wall but it's not as effective from my experience. I've smacked walls inches from guards and they didn't do squat. Jumping is guaranteed to make noise unless you're on carpet.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;44050915]As I'm sure you know pressing R against a wall cause you to lie flat against the wall, face away from it, and holster your weapon thus making you unable to do anything except move and look around.
And yeah you could smack a wall but it's not as effective from my experience. I've smacked walls inches from guards and they didn't do squat. Jumping is guaranteed to make noise unless you're on carpet.[/QUOTE]
if we're talking about thief 2014 here, you can buy blunt arrows for a single gold piece and you can use it to distract guards.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44050996]if we're talking about thief 2014 here, you can buy blunt arrows for a single gold piece and you can use it to distract guards.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about Deadly Shadows.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;44050800]I didn't realize that knocking your club off of a wall was directly attacking someone?
[editline]26th February 2014[/editline]
W/ever yo, you can bitch and moan till the cows come home over menial shit like that, doesn't mean it's a bad game
have fun not having fun with anything[/QUOTE]
But Thief 2014 is a bad game.
Next your gonna defend the shitty linear level design lol.
You still havent given any defense as to why the no jumping is better than jumping, because id love to fucking hear that shit.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44050996]if we're talking about thief 2014 here, you can buy blunt arrows for a single gold piece and you can use it to distract guards.[/QUOTE]
They're pretty buggy, as you can shoot one at the wall behind them and they don't even notice.
Those arrows are meant for hitting those random glass objects that make a ton of noise.
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