• Why do some people disapprove of how Israel is handling the Gaza Strip terrorist problem?
    48 replies, posted
Palestians throw rocks at israeli tanks. Israelis shoot them. Thats how things work down in the middle east. Apparently
Israel's won four wars against those Arabs, offering peace each time before a war was caused. The Arabs refuse to take in the Palestinian refugees, when a poor Israel took in 4 million Jews from THOSE ARAB COUNTRIES. And to think there were only 750K Palestinians in the camps at this time. The Arab coalitions kept them there as a propaganda tool, and they no longer have any place In Israel. They dont deserve to be assimilated, and I'll admit they don't deserve Israel's cruelty. But in no way is either side right.
[QUOTE=Piggah;26134932]Israel's won four wars against those Arabs, offering peace each time before a war was caused. The Arabs refuse to take in the Palestinian refugees, when a poor Israel took in 4 million Jews from THOSE ARAB COUNTRIES. And to think there were only 750K Palestinians in the camps at this time. The Arab coalitions kept them there as a propaganda tool, and they no longer have any place In Israel. They dont deserve to be assimilated, and I'll admit they don't deserve Israel's cruelty. But in no way is either side right.[/QUOTE] 4 million? It's closer to 800,000 from the Arab states, and maybe another 2 million from Europe and America. [editline]18th November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Gestapo;26123847]Because they're using illegal weapons, violating people's human rights and occasionally deliberately killing civilians[/QUOTE] White Phosphorus Isn't illegal and wasn't used illegally, and when soldiers in the IDF kill civilians deliberately they are sentenced and if found guilty are sent to prison with very harsh terms.
^Alternatively, when Hamas fighters kill Jewish citizens they are lauded for their heroism.
why do some people disapprove of hitler he was just trying to get rid of the untermensch
[QUOTE=Araknid;26134886]Palestians throw rocks at israeli tanks. Israelis shoot them. Thats how things work down in the middle east. Apparently[/QUOTE] those are innocent tanks terrorist children
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;26127478]Umm, you do realize that the Jews BOUGHT the lands, right? The UN gave them 53% but about 9% of them they bought from the Arabs, and the rest is the Negev desert in the south, more than half of Israel which back then nobody lived in except for a few Zionists who settled the land and Bedouins who didn't care at all. [/QUOTE] Oh, I didn't know private land ownership results in a nationhood? Regardless, the Zionists only were able to acquire 8-11% of the land but since everyone still felt bad for the poor Jews they voted accordingly in the United Nations, giving the minority (Jews) more land then even the majority/inhabitants. [quote]Then the Arabs declared war on Israel as it declared independence,[/quote] Any rational group of people would of done the same, there is no doubt in that.[quote] [quote]You are also forgetting that Israel is the sole provider of electricity for the Gaza Strip, [/quote] Uh no? Egypt provides electricity as well. Though it is a nice tactic of Israel; make them dependent on the electricity you provide then cut it off.[quote] and you claimed that it deprives them of that which is absolute bullshit.[/quote] They are deprived of food, medical treatment and fuel. [quote] They don't deprive water[/quote] Hahahahaha my ass.[URL="http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/20091026132714361238.html"] http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/20091026132714361238.html[/URL] and before you cry bias, it's from Amnesty. [quote] but they do limit trade as Hamas wants to get better rockets so they could actually do damage, unlike the bottle rockets they make in their backyards.[/quote] [B]DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND AFTER EXPLAINING TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES THAT THE ITEMS BELOW DO NOT IN ANY WAY ASSIST HAMAS? [/B]Banned items in Gaza: * sage * cardamom * coriander * ginger * jam * halva * vinegar * nutmeg * chocolate * fruit preserves * seeds and nuts * biscuits and sweets * potato chips * gas for soft drinks * dried fruit * fresh meats * plaster * tar * wood * cement * iron * glucose * industrial salt * plastic/glass/metal containers * industrial margarine * tarpaulin sheets * fabric (for clothing) * flavor and smell enhancers * fishing rods * fishing nets * buoys * ropes * nylon netting for greenhouses * hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries * spare parts for tractors * dairies for cowsheds * irrigation pipe systems * planters (for saplings) * heaters * musical instruments * size A4 paper (letter/legal size) * writing implements * notebooks * toys * razors * sewing machines * horses * donkeys * goats * cattle * chicks And again, JUST YESTERDAY a new Israeli government document which was finally obtained after years of trying, it was revealed that the blockade was [B]not for Israel's secuirty, BUT AS A COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT[/B]/ [B]DELIBERATELY STARVE THE PALESTINIANS.[/B] [URL]http://www.medialens.org/alerts/[/URL] [URL]http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intItemId=1904&intSiteSN=113[/URL] There was actually no need to obtain the Israeli government documents proving it was not for the security of Israel because it was so fucking obvious that items like cattle and jam would not assist Hamas/defend Israel but you are so blind in nationalism and bias, it is necessary. [quote]don't let bullshitters like this guy and starpluck fill your mind with nonsense.[/quote] :irony: The only one filling people's mind with nonsense is you. [editline]18th November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;26134942] White Phosphorus Isn't illegal and wasn't used illegally, and when soldiers in the IDF kill civilians deliberately they are sentenced and if found guilty are sent to prison with very harsh terms.[/QUOTE] Oh save me from your bullshit. A slap on the wrist is not a fucking harsh punishment. [URL]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7010851.ece[/URL] ---- Also (taken from another website) regarding Israel's so called "system of justice" for it's soldiers: Two Israeli soldiers guilty of using human shield in Gaza was the news headline a month ago. At first glance one might be fooled to think that Israel has a system of justice. But when you read more into the judges’ conclusion: the soldiers were under “difficult and dangerous conditions.” setting the stage to set the soldiers free when the judges’ get ready to announce their decisions at a later date. Just as in August when Israel investigated an Israeli Captain for killing a 13 year old girl by shooting her 17 times. While he was found guilty of the killing, like the Israeli soldiers in the above case, and due to extenuating circumstances of the killing was justified and the Israeli Captain was set free. This is part of Israel ploy to fool or assuage the international community: that crimes committed by its soldiers are not condoned and are investigated, like the killing of 9 Turkish civilians at high seas, or Sabra and Shatilla, Jennie, Kana in Lebanon or Gaza massacres, or … just endless. But then no one is convicted. The father of Sabra and Shatilla Massacre became Israeli Prime Minister joining the club of Israeli ex terrorists who shared the same premier chair before and after him. There has been many documented cases where Israeli soldiers used Palestinians as human shield, (Goldstone report was the latest), yet they accuse (unproven) the Palestinians of the same. In the last war crimes against Gaza, more than 50 Palestinian civilians were killed for every Israeli civilian. Yet Israel cries wolf at the harmless fireworks she received from Gaza
I would like to point out for those less knowledgeable of recent events, that BurnEmDown is pro-Israel and supports war crimes committed by Israel, and even when proven wrong still never ceases to bring a lousy retort such as; [quote] For the Gaza thing such as providing electricity you can also read up on wikipedia and other sources, [B]don't let bullshitters like this guy and starpluck fill your mind with nonsense. [/B] [/quote]To the table, further proving his disposition and ignorance.
[QUOTE=starpluck;26135478]Oh, I didn't know private land ownership results in a nationhood? Regardless, the Zionists only were able to acquire 8-11% of the land but since everyone still felt bad for the poor Jews they voted accordingly in the United Nations, giving the minority (Jews) more land then even the majority/inhabitants.[/quote] Yeah, more land, because it wouldn't be fair to give 1/3 of the population just 8-11% of the land, what they did was give them land in which almost nobody lived except for a few Jewish settlements, and keep in mind the land is desert, completely useless, the Jews would have to work hard as they did with the 8-11% they bought to make the land useful. Private ownership doesn't result in nationhood, but the Jews are a nation and they deserve their own state, just as the UN decided. Keep in mind that in 1947 the Arabs in Palestine weren't a nation yet they were also given their own state. [quote]Any rational group of people would of done the same, there is no doubt in that.[quote] Israel didn't even have an army, declaring war against a state with no army is illegal I've heard, and by declaring war they also directly defied the UN's decision. [quote]Uh no? Egypt provides electricity as well. Though it is a nice tactic of Israel; make them dependent on the electricity you provide then cut it off. They are deprived of food, medical treatment and fuel.[/quote] They produce 65,000 kWh, consume 202,000 kWh, and are provided from Israel with 120,000 kWh. I'm assuming the missing 17,000 kWh is received from Egypt even though wikipedia and the CIA world factbook fail to mention that. Even so, that is quite a small amount. I like how when Israel doesn't give Gaza stuff, you blame Israel, but when they do, you still blame Israel. They aren't deprived of food, they are deprived of specific types of food which isn't required for a basic diet. You don't need chocolate, honey, spices, potato chips and gas for soft drinks to live, these aren't considered basic humanitarian aid and Israel as an imposer of a blockade has every right to restrict these items from entering Gaza. [quote]Hahahahaha my ass.[URL]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/20091026132714361238.html[/URL][/quote] This is about the West Bank, I was talking about the Gaza Strip. [quote][B]DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND AFTER EXPLAINING TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES THAT THE ITEMS BELOW DO NOT IN ANY WAY ASSIST HAMAS? [/B]Banned items in Gaza: * sage * cardamom * coriander * ginger * jam * halva * vinegar * nutmeg * chocolate * fruit preserves * seeds and nuts * biscuits and sweets * potato chips * gas for soft drinks * dried fruit * fresh meats * plaster * tar * wood * cement * iron * glucose * industrial salt * plastic/glass/metal containers * industrial margarine * tarpaulin sheets * fabric (for clothing) * flavor and smell enhancers * fishing rods * fishing nets * buoys * ropes * nylon netting for greenhouses * hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries * spare parts for tractors * dairies for cowsheds * irrigation pipe systems * planters (for saplings) * heaters * musical instruments * size A4 paper (letter/legal size) * writing implements * notebooks * toys * razors * sewing machines * horses * donkeys * goats * cattle * chicks And again, JUST YESTERDAY a new Israeli government document which was finally obtained after years of trying, it was revealed that the blockade was [B]not for Israel's secuirty, BUT AS A COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT[/B]/ [B]DELIBERATELY STARVE THE PALESTINIANS.[/B][/quote] I don't care that these items don't help Hamas, Israel is only obliged to let in basic humanitarian supplies, these aren't basic humanitarian supplies. [quote][URL]http://www.medialens.org/alerts/[/URL] [URL]http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intItemId=1904&intSiteSN=113[/URL][/quote] Again, I'll believe this report when I hear it from a credible news outlet, not one that says "correcting the distorted corruption of the corporate media" on the top of their website. [quote]There was actually no need to obtain the Israeli government documents proving it was not for the security of Israel because it was so fucking obvious that items like cattle and jam would not assist Hamas/defend Israel but you are so blind in nationalism and bias, it is necessary. [/quote] You just don't understand, do you? Israel is allowed to ban everything except for basic humanitarian aid, these aren't basic humanitarian aid, nobody has ever needed jam to live. Cattle is arguable, but as long as the products you can get from cattle such as milk and meat are allowed in, there's no need for cattle. [quote]Yes give me an Israeli source to back up your claims. Reminds me when you linked me to the Israeli government's website to prove they were in the right.[/quote] Why do you think it's an Israeli source? And if you don't like the website itself you can check the books, websites it sources.
starpluck you're fucking awesome.
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;26135611]starpluck you're fucking awesome.[/QUOTE] You rated the wrong person, eject!
[QUOTE=RayDark;26135579]I would like to point out for those less knowledgeable of recent events, that BurnEmDown supports war crimes committed by Israel[/QUOTE] Source?
[QUOTE=RayDark;26135579]I would like to point out for those less knowledgeable of recent events, that BurnEmDown is pro-Israel and supports war crimes committed by Israel, and even when proven wrong still never ceases to bring a lousy retort such as; To the table, further proving his disposition and ignorance.[/QUOTE] The new avatar almost fooled me.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;26135596]Yeah, more land, because it wouldn't be fair to give 1/3 of the population just 8-11% of the land,[/QUOTE] But according to you it'd be more fair to give the minority the majority of the land? There's nothing wrong with giving them what they purchased, given they ARE the minority and don't need much land alone. [quote]what they did was give them land in which almost nobody lived except for a few Jewish settlements, and keep in mind the land is desert, completely useless, the Jews would have to work hard as they did with the 8-11% they bought to make the land useful.[/quote] WHO CARES if the land you received was hard to work on. I don't see how that is a justification at all. You can't take land from another nation legally and fair because the land you took was "hard to work on anyways". They still got their land regardless I extremely disagree on the notion that it should be excused since they "weren't be able to make use of it". [quote]Private ownership doesn't result in nationhood, but the Jews are a nation[/quote] What? Jews are an ethnic group. [quote] and they deserve their own state, just as the UN decided. Keep in mind that in 1947 the Arabs in Palestine weren't a nation yet they were also given their own state.[/quote] Because they are two totally different circumstances. The Palestinians actually lived in Palestine, owned land in Palestine and produced offspring from generation to generation. Endured occupation by the Ottoman and the British. Why the fuck would you compare foreign Zionists to the Palestinians? It would be only logical for the Palestinians to be given a State and denying this is absurd. [quote]Israel didn't even have an army, declaring war against a state with no army is illegal I've heard[/quote] Ahaha, no. That would mean Israel declaring war on Gaza would be illegal. The pre-IDF forces "Haganah" (ההגנה) at the time were the same state (Not with a capital S) as Hamas is now. They are both militia, not an army. [quote]and by declaring war they also directly defied the UN's decision.[/quote] Woop! Are you now honestly now, after all these months of debating using defiance to the UN to help your argument. You'd always disregard Israel deifying the UN despite she owes her existence to it. Well now that you bring it up, all I'm going to say is Israel has defied the most United Nations resolutions to date so that really does not hold water. [quote]They produce 65,000 kWh, consume 202,000 kWh, and are provided from Israel with 120,000 kWh. I'm assuming the missing 17,000 kWh is received from Egypt even though wikipedia and the CIA world factbook fail to mention that. Even so, that is quite a small amount. I like how when Israel doesn't give Gaza stuff, you blame Israel, but when they do, you still blame Israel.[/quote] Because, in 2006, Israel carried out an attack on Gaza's only power plant and never permitted the rebuilding to its pre-attack capacity ([URL="http://www.btselem.org/Download/200609_Act_of_Vengeance_Eng.pdf"]down to producing 80 megawatts maximum[/URL] from 140 megawatts). According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), the daily electricity deficit has increased since January of 2010 with the plant only able to operate one turbine producing only 30 megawatts compared to its previous average of 60-65 megawatts in 2009. The majority of houses have power cuts at least eight hours per day. [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Gaza%20Feb_08_2008.pdf"]Some have no electricity for long as 12 hours a day[/URL]. The lack of electricity has led to reliance on generators, many of which have exploded from overwork, killing and maiming civilians. [URL="http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications/blogs/pressoffice/?p=12352"]Oxfam reported that[/URL] "[in 2009], a total of 75 Palestinians died from carbon monoxide gas poisoning or fires from generators, and 15 died and 27 people were injured in the first two months of this year." Wouldn't it be reasonable to provide at least some electricity? I'd also like to point an example of Israel's promoted vengeance above, when they bombed the Gaza power plant. A civilian infrastructure that showed no harm to Israel's security. [URL]http://www.btselem.org/english/publications/summaries/200609_act_of_vengeance.asp[/URL] [quote]They aren't deprived of food, they are deprived of specific types of food which isn't required for a basic diet. You don't need chocolate, honey, spices, potato chips and gas for soft drinks to live, these aren't considered basic humanitarian aid and[B] Israel as an imposer of a blockade has every right to restrict these items from entering Gaza[/B].[/quote][quote]I don't care that these items don't help Hamas, Israel is only obliged to let in basic humanitarian supplies, these aren't basic humanitarian supplies.[/quote]No they fucking don't. The list HAS basic humanitarian supplies, regardless Israel can't just "deny everything but basic supplies". Also, you might want to read this. Basic humanitarian supplies are actually being denied as a [B]result[/B], despite your bullshit. [release] [highlight] Results from the blockade[/highlight] [B]Water: [/B]Israel has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system. [URL="http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/israel-rations-palestinians-trickle-water-20091027"]Amnesty International reports[/URL] that 90-95 percent of the drinking water in Gaza is contaminated and unfit for consumption. The [URL="http://www.unep.org/PDF/dmb/UNEP_Gaza_EA.pdf"]United Nations even found that[/URL] bottled water in Gaza contained contaminants, likely due to the plastic bottles recycled in dysfunctional factories. The lack of sufficient power for desalination and sewage facilities results in significant amounts of sewage seeping into Gaza's costal aquifer--the main source of water for the people of Gaza. [B]Industry[/B]: Prior to the siege, the industrial sector employed 20 percent of Gaza's labor force. One year after the siege began, the [URL="http://www.pfi.ps/site_images/file/Gaza%20Industries-After%20a%20year%20of%20siege.pdf"]Palestinian Federation of Industries reported[/URL] that "61% of the factories have completely closed down. 1% was forced to change their scope of work in order to meet their living expenses, 38% were partially closed (sometimes means they operate with less than 15% capacity)". A [URL="http://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA63/A63_28-en.pdf"]World Health Organization report from this year states[/URL]: "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. Almost all (98%) industrial operations have been shut down. The construction sector, which before September 2000 provided 15% of all jobs, has effectively halted. Only 258 industrial establishments in Gaza were operational in 2009 compared with over 2400 in 2006. As a result, unemployment rates have soared to 42% (up from 32% before the blockade)." [B]Health:[/B] Gaza's health sector, dramatically overworked, was also significantly damaged by Operation Cast Lead. [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ochaopt_who_gaza_health_fact_sheet_20100120_english.pdf"]According to UN OCHA[/URL], infrastructure for 15 of 27 of Gaza's hospitals, 43 of 110 of its primary care facilities, and 29 of its 148 ambulances were damaged or destroyed during the war. Without rebuilding materials like cement and glass due to Israeli restrictions, the vast majority of the destroyed health infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Many medical procedures for advanced illnesses are not available in Gaza. 1103 individuals applied for permits to exit the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing for medical treatment in 2009. 21 percent of these permits were denied or delayed resulting in missed hospital appointments, and several have died waiting to leave Gaza for treatment. [B]Food: [/B]A 2010 World Health Organization [URL="http://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA63/A63_28-en.pdf"]report stated[/URL] that "chronic malnutrition in the Gaza Strip has risen over the past few years and has now reached 10.2%. Micronutrient deficiencies among children and women have reached levels that are of concern." [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_press_release_english.pdf"]According to UN OCHA[/URL]:"Over 60 percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and wellbeing of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation." 72 percent of Gaza's fish profit comes from beyond the three nautical mile mark, [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_fact_sheet_english.pdf"]but further restrictions by Israel's naval blockade[/URL] prevents Gazans from fishing beyond that mark. Between 2008 and 2009 the fishing catch was down 47 percent.[/release] o geee golly! That looks like basic humanitarian supplies are being denied! [quote]Again, I'll believe this report when I hear it from a credible news outlet, not one that says "correcting the distorted corruption of the corporate media" on the top of their website.[/quote]They report what the news fails to report, that doesn't make it false. But whatever, I'll just give you the official document instead, where it says it directly. You don't need news to report it. Here you go! First, Israel's response on releasing the documents, claiming they will not be released for security reasons (bullshit) [URL]http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/StateResponseEng250410.pdf[/URL] And now, the document fully released: [URL]http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/DefenseMinistryDocumentsRevealedFOIAPetition.pdf[/URL] (It's a professional Hebrew to English translation.) So there you go. [quote]You just don't understand, do you? Israel is allowed to ban everything except for basic humanitarian aid, these aren't basic humanitarian aid, nobody has ever needed jam to live. Cattle is arguable, but as long as the products you can get from cattle such as milk and meat are allowed in, there's no need for cattle.[/quote]Read above. [editline]18th November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;26135639][quote=RayDark]I would like to point out for those less knowledgeable of recent events, that BurnEmDown supports war crimes committed by[/quote]Source?[/QUOTE] During the Flotilla incident. You kept denying to everyone publicly that the raid took place in international waters. Even after we sourced the United Nations and the BBC you kept pasting some Wikipedia picture claiming the borders on it prove it was not on international waters. Fortunately, you finally gave up after a while. [editline]18th November 2010[/editline] Oh, and you're defense that "as long as they allow humanitarian supplies it's legal, is false. [release]In violation of international law, which allows Israel to restrict the passage of goods only for concrete security reasons, the decision whether to permit or prohibit an item was also based on "the good's public perception" and "whether it is viewed as a luxury" (section c.b, page 16). In other words, items characterized as "luxury" items would be banned – even if they posed no security threat, and even if they were needed. Thus, items such as chocolate and paper were not on the "permitted" list. In addition, officials were to consider "sensitivity to the needs of the international community".[/release]
[QUOTE=starpluck;26135879]But according to you it'd be more fair to give the minority the majority of the land? There's nothing wrong with giving them what they purchased, given they ARE the minority and don't need much land alone.[/quote] They were a 1/3rd of the populace, it wouldn't be fair to give them just 11% of the land, when all of it was promised to them earlier. [quote[WHO CARES if the land you received was hard to work on. I don't see how that is a justification at all. You can't take land from another nation legally and fair because the land you took was "hard to work on anyways". They still got their land regardless I extremely disagree on the notion that it should be excused since they "weren't be able to make use of it".[/quote] I didn't say it justified it, and they didn't take this land from another nation, nobody lived in the Negev, in fact, the Jews had a majority there, because besides them only a few Bedouins lived there and they didn't care anyway. [quote]What? Jews are an ethnic group.[/quote] That's true as well, but you know what makes an ethnic group a nation? The will to have self-governance, which the Jews had, at least the Zionists. [quote]Because they are two totally different circumstances. The Palestinians actually lived in Palestine, owned land in Palestine and produced offspring from generation to generation. Endured occupation by the Ottoman and the British. Why the fuck would you compare foreign Zionists to the Palestinians? It would be only logical for the Palestinians to be given a State and denying this is absurd. [/quote] As I said earlier most Palestinians in the beginning of the 20th century immigrated there at the end of the 19th century. And if they cared so much about the land then they could have just not sold it to the Jews. [quote]Ahaha, no. That would mean Israel declaring war on Gaza would be illegal. The pre-IDF forces "Haganah" (ההגנה) at the time were the same state (Not with a capital S) as Hamas is now. They are both militia, not an army.[/quote] There's a difference between a militia and a paramilitary. The Haganah was a paramilitary, as in, it was just like a military but not officially Israel's military, at least not in the first few days of it's formation. Hamas however are officially Gaza's leadership and their military wing, the al-Qassam Brigade, are it's military. [quote]Woop! Are you now honestly now, after all these months of debating using defiance to the UN to help your argument. You'd always disregard Israel deifying the UN despite she owes her existence to it. Well now that you bring it up, all I'm going to say is Israel has defied the most United Nations resolutions to date so that really does not hold water. [/quote] I don't really care about them defying the UN's resolution, I'm just saying that if you hold the UN as such a high authority, then you must agree that the Arabs defying the UN's decision is wrong. Because, in 2006, Israel carried out an attack on Gaza's only power plant and never permitted the rebuilding to its pre-attack capacity ([URL="http://www.btselem.org/Download/200609_Act_of_Vengeance_Eng.pdf"]down to producing 80 megawatts maximum[/URL] from 140 megawatts). [quote]According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), the daily electricity deficit has increased since January of 2010 with the plant only able to operate one turbine producing only 30 megawatts compared to its previous average of 60-65 megawatts in 2009. The majority of houses have power cuts at least eight hours per day. [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Gaza%20Feb_08_2008.pdf"]Some have no electricity for long as 12 hours a day[/URL]. The lack of electricity has led to reliance on generators, many of which have exploded from overwork, killing and maiming civilians. [URL="http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications/blogs/pressoffice/?p=12352"]Oxfam reported that[/URL] "[in 2009], a total of 75 Palestinians died from carbon monoxide gas poisoning or fires from generators, and 15 died and 27 people were injured in the first two months of this year." Wouldn't it be reasonable to provide at least some electricity? I'd also like to point an example of Israel's promoted vengeance above, when they bombed the Gaza power plant. A civilian infrastructure that showed no harm to Israel's security. [URL]http://www.btselem.org/english/publications/summaries/200609_act_of_vengeance.asp[/URL][/quote] Well that's very unfortunate, but that's how war goes, sometimes civilian buildings are hit, you can't honestly expect all of Israel's bombings to land exactly on target. [quote]No they fucking don't. The list HAS basic humanitarian supplies, regardless Israel can't just "deny everything but basic supplies". Also, you might want to read this. Basic humanitarian supplies are actually being denied as a [B]result[/B], despite your bullshit. [release] [highlight] Results from the blockade[/highlight] [B]Water: [/B]Israel has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system. [URL="http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/israel-rations-palestinians-trickle-water-20091027"]Amnesty International reports[/URL] that 90-95 percent of the drinking water in Gaza is contaminated and unfit for consumption. The [URL="http://www.unep.org/PDF/dmb/UNEP_Gaza_EA.pdf"]United Nations even found that[/URL] bottled water in Gaza contained contaminants, likely due to the plastic bottles recycled in dysfunctional factories. The lack of sufficient power for desalination and sewage facilities results in significant amounts of sewage seeping into Gaza's costal aquifer--the main source of water for the people of Gaza. [B]Industry[/B]: Prior to the siege, the industrial sector employed 20 percent of Gaza's labor force. One year after the siege began, the [URL="http://www.pfi.ps/site_images/file/Gaza%20Industries-After%20a%20year%20of%20siege.pdf"]Palestinian Federation of Industries reported[/URL] that "61% of the factories have completely closed down. 1% was forced to change their scope of work in order to meet their living expenses, 38% were partially closed (sometimes means they operate with less than 15% capacity)". A [URL="http://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA63/A63_28-en.pdf"]World Health Organization report from this year states[/URL]: "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. Almost all (98%) industrial operations have been shut down. The construction sector, which before September 2000 provided 15% of all jobs, has effectively halted. Only 258 industrial establishments in Gaza were operational in 2009 compared with over 2400 in 2006. As a result, unemployment rates have soared to 42% (up from 32% before the blockade)." [B]Health:[/B] Gaza's health sector, dramatically overworked, was also significantly damaged by Operation Cast Lead. [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ochaopt_who_gaza_health_fact_sheet_20100120_english.pdf"]According to UN OCHA[/URL], infrastructure for 15 of 27 of Gaza's hospitals, 43 of 110 of its primary care facilities, and 29 of its 148 ambulances were damaged or destroyed during the war. Without rebuilding materials like cement and glass due to Israeli restrictions, the vast majority of the destroyed health infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Many medical procedures for advanced illnesses are not available in Gaza. 1103 individuals applied for permits to exit the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing for medical treatment in 2009. 21 percent of these permits were denied or delayed resulting in missed hospital appointments, and several have died waiting to leave Gaza for treatment. [B]Food: [/B]A 2010 World Health Organization [URL="http://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA63/A63_28-en.pdf"]report stated[/URL] that "chronic malnutrition in the Gaza Strip has risen over the past few years and has now reached 10.2%. Micronutrient deficiencies among children and women have reached levels that are of concern." [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_press_release_english.pdf"]According to UN OCHA[/URL]:"Over 60 percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and wellbeing of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation." 72 percent of Gaza's fish profit comes from beyond the three nautical mile mark, [URL="http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_fact_sheet_english.pdf"]but further restrictions by Israel's naval blockade[/URL] prevents Gazans from fishing beyond that mark. Between 2008 and 2009 the fishing catch was down 47 percent.[/release] o geee golly! That looks like basic humanitarian supplies are being denied![/quote] Again, there's a difference between quantity and the type of supplies denied. Israel doesn't deny the water, only building materials for the sewer system, which are allowed through if humanitarian groups ask for them. Israel just can't let everyone have building materials, because then Hamas would easily be able to get their hands on them and improve their tunnels greatly, thus allowing them to smuggle in a lot more weapons and rockets, much deadlier rockets. [quote]They report what the news fails to report, that doesn't make it false. But whatever, I'll just give you the official document instead, where it says it directly. You don't need news to report it. Here you go! First, Israel's response on releasing the documents, claiming they will not be released for security reasons (bullshit) [URL]http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/StateResponseEng250410.pdf[/URL] And now, the document fully released: [URL]http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/DefenseMinistryDocumentsRevealedFOIAPetition.pdf[/URL] (It's a professional Hebrew to English translation.) So there you go.[/quote] Take a look at page 20-22, there's a specific list of basic humanitarian items which are allowed through. [quote]Read above.[/quote] Read above. [editline]18th November 2010[/editline] [quote]During the Flotilla incident. You kept denying to everyone publicly that the raid took place in international waters. Even after we sourced the United Nations and the BBC you kept pasting some Wikipedia picture claiming the borders on it prove it was not on international waters. Fortunately, you finally gave up after a while.[/QUOTE] I was just wanted to see a map which would clarify where are these international waters. If I stopped arguing after I was proven wrong, how does that make me a supported of war crimes?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;26136136]They were a 1/3rd of the populace, it wouldn't be fair to give them just 11% of the land, when all of it was promised to them earlier.[/QUOTE] Since that's how much they bought, it'd same fair. And, uh. The Palestinians were also promised their own State as well [B]if[/B] they assisted the British Army against the Ottoman Empire. Those Arabs actually worked hard and did shit to only be duped. [quote]I didn't say it justified it, and they didn't take this land from another nation, nobody lived in the Negev, in fact, the Jews had a majority there, because besides them only a few Bedouins lived there and they didn't care anyway.[/quote] The Negev was not the only piece of land given to the Zionists. Yes, quite a lot of it was given to them but they had other productive land. [quote]That's true as well, but you know what makes an ethnic group a nation? The will to have self-governance, which the Jews had, at least the Zionists.[/quote] So what does this have to do with what we're talking about. [quote]As I said earlier most Palestinians in the beginning of the 20th century immigrated there at the end of the 19th century. And if they cared so much about the land then they could have just not sold it to the Jews.[/quote] They never sold Palestine to the Zionists as that is what you repeatedly imply. They sold 8-11% of the land only. The Palestinians didn't care about the 8-11% hence why they were fucking sold. But when all of a sudden, they get fucking like, more than 50% of land then there's a big problem. [B]There's an explicit reason why such little land was sold. [/B] You keep making it sound like the Palestinians sold Palestine to the Zionists. [quote]I don't really care about them defying the UN's resolution, I'm just saying that if you hold the UN as such a high authority, then you must agree that the Arabs defying the UN's decision is wrong.[/quote] Oh yeah absolutely. I do believe it was wrong of them to defy the United Nations. But their compliance afterwords compared to Israel is kind of a negation. [quote]Well that's very unfortunate, but that's how war goes, sometimes civilian buildings are hit, you can't honestly expect all of Israel's bombings to land exactly on target.[/quote]What the fuck are you talking about? [B] In the early morning hours of 28 June 2006, following the abduction of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, the Israeli Air Force attacked the only electrical power plant operating in the Gaza Strip. Six missiles were fired at the power plant's six transformers. Two of the missiles missed their target, so two more missiles were fired a few minutes later, destroying the remaining transformers. [/B]There was no war going on at all. This was [B]Israel's response[/B] to abducting Gilad. They bombed the power plant as a response. Even though Israel likes to brand it as a "retaliatory strike" you have to admit that was no retaliation at all, but just pure revenge. Such action should never be displayed by the government. [quote]Again, there's a difference between quantity and the type of supplies denied. Israel doesn't deny the water, only building materials for the sewer system, which are allowed through if humanitarian groups ask for them.[/quote] No they aren't. They refuse to permit Gaza to rebuild their sewer system entirely. There's no exceptions. [quote]Israel just can't let everyone have building materials, because then Hamas would easily be able to get their hands on them and improve their tunnels greatly, thus allowing them to smuggle in a lot more weapons and rockets, much deadlier rockets.[/quote] I doubt that. That is like that one article where Israel confiscated oxygen tanks for a hospital since they "can be made into a weapon". [quote]Take a look at page 20-22, there's a specific list of basic humanitarian items which are allowed through.[/quote]OK? There are conditions surrounding those items and the context. The conditions are outlined throughout the document. Gisha already found them and pointed them out, here with the page numbers and sections: [release] [B]"Policy of Deliberate Reduction"[/B] The documents reveal that the state approved "[B]a policy of deliberate reduction[/B]" for basic goods in the Gaza Strip (section h.4, page 5*). Thus, for example, Israel restricted the supply of fuel needed for the power plant, disrupting the supply of electricity and water. The state set a "[B]lower warning line[/B]" (section g.2, page 5) to give advance warning of expected shortages in a particular item, but at the same time approved [B]ignoring that warning[/B], if the good in question was subject to a policy of "[B]deliberate reduction[/B]". Moreover, the state set an "upper red line" above which even basic humanitarian items could be blocked, even if they were in demand (section g.1, page 5). The state claimed in a cover letter to Gisha that in practice, it had not authorized reduction of "basic goods" below the "lower warning line", but it did not define what these "basic goods" were (page 2). [B]"Luxuries" denied for Gaza Strip residents[/B] In violation of international law, which allows Israel to restrict the passage of goods only for concrete security reasons, the decision whether to permit or prohibit an item was also based on "the good's public perception" and "whether it is viewed as a luxury" (section c.b, page 16). In other words, items characterized as "luxury" items would be banned – even if they posed no security threat, and even if they were needed. Thus, items such as chocolate and paper were not on the "permitted" list. In addition, officials were to consider "sensitivity to the needs of the international community". [B]Ban on Reconstructing Gaza[/B] Although government officials have claimed that they will permit the rehabilitation of Gaza, the documents reveal that Israel treated rehabilitation and development of the Gaza Strip as a negative factor in determining whether to allow an item to enter; goods "[B]of a rehabilitative character[/B]" required special permission (section g, page 16). Thus, international organizations and Western governments did not receive permits to transfer building materials into Gaza for schools and homes. [B]Secret List of Goods[/B] The procedures determine that the list of permitted goods "[B]will not be released to those not specified!![/B]" (emphasis in original) (section j, page 17), ignoring the fact that without transparency, merchants in Gaza could not know what they were permitted to purchase. The list itemized permitted goods only. Items not on the list – cumin, for example – would require a special procedure for approval, irrespective of any security consideration, at the end of which it would be decided whether to let it in or not. [B]Calculation of product inventory[/B] The documents contain a series of formulas created by the Defense Ministry to compute product inventory (pages 8-10). The calculations are presumed to allow COGAT to measure what is called the "[B]length of breath[/B]" (section i, page 8). The formula states that if you divide the inventory in the Strip by the daily consumption needs of residents, you will get the number of days it will take for residents of Gaza to run out of that basic product, or in other words, until their "length of breath" will run out. According to Gisha Director Sari Bashi: "[B]Instead of considering security concerns, on the one hand, and the rights and needs of civilians living in Gaza, on the other, Israel banned glucose for biscuits and the fuel needed for regular supply of electricity – paralyzing normal life in Gaza and impairing the moral character of the State of Israel. I am sorry to say that major elements of this policy are still in place[/B]". [/release] As you can see, those items at page 22 are useless and you must take all the other pages into account.
[QUOTE=|FlapJack|;26124554]Because killing turkish aid workers is what the cool kids do.[/QUOTE] Silly FlapJack, they we got in the strip illegaly.There fault.
jews don't deserve their own nation. no race does. building a country based on race is fucking retarded.
you can't spell 'terrorist' without 'Palestine'
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