[QUOTE=LCBADs;33395960]In contrast, the fall of Rome was - although not entirely - much more external, as in, [I]they were invaded by dozens of different tribal groups, culminating with the deposition of the Emperor by the Germanic chieftain Odoacer.[/QUOTE]
Rome decayed from within more than pressures from the outside. For the most part, the years 200 - 700 were that of slow decay of the Roman empire. For example the ship that sunk during these years declined massively, showing decreased trade and movement of people.
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Mediterranean_shipwrecks.jpg[/img]
The individual provinces making up the empire became too self-sufficient, and Rome itself was a thieving empire. It survived off conquering land and using the spoils to fund themselves further. As soon as it stopped conquering more land it declined into bankruptcy and poverty. With the provinces becoming self-sufficient they simply stopped supporting Rome as they had the power to do so and Rome did not. In desperation Rome began to look for support wherever it could find it, such as in the Barbarians who started to make up Romes generals and politicians. By the 5th century the emperors were reduced to puppets under barbarian leaders using them for their own purposes, and by the 6th century they simply got rid of the titles themselves and invented new ones.
America is different in that it has reached an entirely different stage of history, being capitalistic at the moment. If the USA will collaspe, it will be due to a loss of support among all 3 classes, a determined political party trying to gain power and most likely to bring about both events it would need to have high repression of the people, a collapsing economy and a failing war.
America could potentially collaspe in a revolution, but most likely for that to occur it will have needed to have been exhausted massively and done badly in a large scale total war.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33395960]A head of state and a council of elected officials? Wow, that's certainly not a staple of nearly every modern government ever.
Again, many, many nations and empires have had golden ages too, that's hardly a meaningful connection.
And we weren't founded on Roman philosophy, Roman philosophy was grounded in spirituality, asceticism, and service to the state by the people, almost completely removed from philosophy of the Founding Fathers - of secularism, personal opportunity(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness), and service to the people by the state.
One of the biggest differences between the Rome and America is in regards to the fabled "fall" itself. The biggest fear is of economic collapse, that we Americans just become so decadent and corrupt that the whole country just falls to shit, that America will collapse from the inside. In contrast, the fall of Rome was - although not entirely - much more external, as in, [I]they were invaded by dozens of different tribal groups, culminating with the deposition of the Emperor by the Germanic chieftain Odoacer.[/I] Leading up to this hypothesized fall of America, who goes and divides the entire country into two pieces? What massive plagues wrack the populace? Will our two-and-a-half-million-man army be too small to defend our borders, forcing us to rely on foreign countries to do the protecting for us? And there's corruption, yes, the Roman government was corrupt, but it was always corrupt, even during its height, and it was just as corrupt as every government before or since - same as the American goverment. Like the examples above, it's hardly special.
My biggest issue with this whole "America=Rome" business is the sheer arrogance and myopia of it. Rome is perhaps [I]the[/I] defining fixture of Western civilization, it was a central figure in the rise of Christianity, it inspired and informed European art, philosophy, and culture for hundreds of years, and it continues to serve as the gold standard for prosperity and civilization in the West. Rome's memory has been invoked by great kings and tinpot dictators, by continent-spanning empires and backwater kingdoms, and everyone in between. To think that America - a nation that's only been around for the last two-hundred-and-fifty years and has only really mattered in the last one hundred - is the sucessor that that lofty place in history is really kinda ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
The point is that we are starting to follow the roman empire did at the beginning on its end (eternally). Im not saying that 5 countries will attack us, or that we will split the states into two separate countries.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;33396356]
America is different in that it has reached an entirely different stage of history, being capitalistic at the moment. If the USA will collaspe, it will be due to a loss of support among all 3 classes, a determined political party trying to gain power and most likely to bring about both events it would need to have high repression of the people, a collapsing economy and a failing war.
America could potentially collaspe in a revolution, but most likely for that to occur it will have needed to have been exhausted massively and done badly in a large scale total war.[/QUOTE]
I am sure that you have seen the hatred of the GOP on here, along with both parties not being able to tie the strings together in a manor that is reflective of the people's views. I believe that the US citizens are getting fed up with the whole two-party system. The people who we have now are old, and rich. Why dont we get some new, young, not-so-rich middle class person who really does the job as he was elected to do so.
You guys might know that if there was a revolution it would more than likely open the doors for that "External assault" that destroyed Rome.
Citizens revolt en mass > Army sent to suppress it > Divide/Friendly Fire within US military structure > Insufficient or poor defense of borders from people who want to go in to attack > Zetas/[del]North Korea[/del]/Terrorists/Iran/Any other enemy begin to pour in (How fast or slowly depending on how bad the internal situation has gotten) through large security holes in the border > Collapse happens in the US as it's own people in-fight and get attacked by foreign invaders
Viola.
Now obviously we didn't have to worry about this 150 years ago because not only did we have a healthy economy and a relatively functioning government, we also were not political enemies with entire continents.
Now of course in the Roman context
Political turmoil and corruption + Outside barbarians constantly attacking > Coup de tat against leaders (For example Caesar and beyond) > Turmoil, along with empire size allows enemies to attack and pour in like a hot knife through butter without Rome's military being able to stop them leads to > The fall of Rome in 476.
[QUOTE=certified;33397601]You guys might know that if there was a revolution it would more than likely open the doors for that "External assault" that destroyed Rome.
Citizens revolt en mass > Army sent to suppress it > Divide/Friendly Fire within US military structure > Insufficient or poor defense of borders from people who want to go in to attack > Zetas/[del]North Korea[/del]/Terrorists/Iran/Any other enemy begin to pour in (How fast or slowly depending on how bad the internal situation has gotten) through large security holes in the border > Collapse happens in the US as it's own people in-fight and get attacked by foreign invaders
Viola.
Now obviously we didn't have to worry about this 150 years ago because not only did we have a healthy economy and a relatively functioning government, we also were not political enemies with entire continents.
Now of course in the Roman context
Political turmoil and corruption + Outside barbarians constantly attacking > Coup de tat against leaders (For example Caesar and beyond) > Turmoil, along with empire size allows enemies to attack and pour in like a hot knife through butter without Rome's military being able to stop them leads to > The fall of Rome in 476.[/QUOTE]
How are any of those factions supposed to get a large enough military force together, and to the states in one piece, capable of conquering the 4th largest country in the world, filled with 300 million plus people?
Zetas-Just no, they're a powerful cartel, not a full blown army
Terrorists-Yeah, I can see more attacks coming in the wake of widespread strife
Iran-uhh atlantic/pacific ocean, no overseas logistical support, no real method of getting that many troops overseas
any-Mexico? Canada? When the US does splinter apart (and it will splinter, not be conquered) virtually every economy in the world will take a MASSIVE blow at losing such a major trading partner. The USD will become the mark v2, and I expect everyone closely involved with us will see similar things happen with their own currencies.
I just can't see any power being left in good enough shape after a massively costly WW3 (hell even right this second) being able to take over the US.
[QUOTE=fskman;33397919]How are any of those factions supposed to get a large enough military force together, and to the states in one piece, capable of conquering the 4th largest country in the world, filled with 300 million plus people?
Zetas-Just no, they're a powerful cartel, not a full blown army
Terrorists-Yeah, I can see more attacks coming in the wake of widespread strife
Iran-uhh atlantic/pacific ocean, no overseas logistical support, no real method of getting that many troops overseas
any-Mexico? Canada? When the US does splinter apart (and it will splinter, not be conquered) virtually every economy in the world will take a MASSIVE blow at losing such a major trading partner. The USD will become the mark v2, and I expect everyone closely involved with us will see similar things happen with their own currencies.
I just can't see any power being left in good enough shape after a massively costly WW3 (hell even right this second) being able to take over the US.[/QUOTE]
If the US collapses, it will crumble, not a sudden crash, so other countries will have the time to isolate their economies from it. Although I have to say, the EU is more likely to collapse into war than the US, because the member states aren't as firmly linked as the US.
You really can't compare the US to the Roman Empire, they are just too different.
I'd compare it to the fall of the British Empire, which relates much more closely.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;33467450]You really can't compare the US to the Roman Empire, they are just too different.[/QUOTE]
This. I mean yes, broadly there are some similarities, but in terms of specifics, they are so utterly disparate that it's almost pointless to draw comparisons.
That being said, I'd like to see Australia become the next East Roman Empire (as improbable as that is, with a different outcome).
People keep saying that the solution to a lot of problems is removing the power big business has to buy political power. But it's just not that easy, and this is one of the same fundamental reasons that OWS will accomplish nothing.
People seem to forget that these huge multinationals have worked for the better part of the last century to accumulate all of their wealth and power. To think they will any of that up without kicking and screaming is either foolishly optimistic or hopelessly naive.
Even if the people 'succeed' in ousting big business from the pockets of our elected officials, it will be meaningless because they will find other, more secretive ways to buy results. Unless you get some absolutely incorruptible moralfags who won't take any sort of bribes to run the country (people like this don't exist by the way, everyone has their price), you will never solve the problem.
[QUOTE=Freakie;33368153]Is it comparing to the fall of the Romans? Not quite sure myself.
Because if it is, America would need some invading mongolian pillagers to follow that particular route to ruin, which of course is a couple thousand years too late.[/QUOTE]
There was more to the fall of Rome than pillagers, I think it is an apt comparison.
We had a depression way worse in the 1930s, we still stayed a country. We had uprisings in cities during Vietnam, we still stayed a country. Nothing recent has caused anything close to what happened then. There are still many years to come for the United States. Some good and some bad but it's no where near breaking out into a civil war or something.
[editline]27th November 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Medevilae;33471276]Skipped the majority of the incoherent rambling to say we live in modern times- you're very unlikely to witness the fall of a superpower, much less the United States, in your lifetime. Like it or not, be you uninformed or just downright pessimistic, things are a hell of a lot more stable now than they were in the 400s around the fall of Rome.
On economy... Economies are ridiculously intertwined.. With the largest GDP in the world, the US would not fall economically without dragging down the world economy into oblivion. You can't take one leg off the bottom of a table and expect to be able to eat your dinner off of it.
Besides the fact that aside from debt the country is pretty fucking stable.
And trust me kids, corruption is nothing now compared to what it was around say the turn of the 19th century.[/QUOTE]
This.
[QUOTE=RusMar;33471387]We had a depression way worse in the 1930s, we still stayed a country. We had uprisings in cities during Vietnam, we still stayed a country. Nothing recent has caused anything close to what happened then. There are still many years to come for the United States. Some good and some bad but it's no where near breaking out into a civil war or something.
[editline]27th November 2011[/editline]
This.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/005/804/images.jpeg?1304966798[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Atlascore;33368048]Honestly, I believe we'll see states like California leaving within the next 50 years if things just keep getting worse.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you mean by this, California is not a sports team that is going to move to a different place. The United States will not let California "leave."
[editline]27th November 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ghost111;33471411][IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/005/804/images.jpeg?1304966798[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Not helpful and explain.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
