Firearms! - General - Facepunch Forum

[QUOTE=dvsilverwing;19261939]Alright guys, I've come to a fork in the road. I have to decide between 2 firearms, both being Semi-Automatic .308's. An HK91 clone: [url]http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=151892383#PIC[/url] Or an FAL R1A1: [url]http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FG&Product_Code=948&Category_Code=FIREARMS+R+AMR+FAL[/url] Any advice?[/QUOTE] First of all, never buy from Floridagunworks, I haven't heard a single good thing about them, and they don't keep their website up to date, that gun is probably sold out. Second, I have heard some terrible, terrible things about Hesse, avoid them. At $850, just save up for a PTR91, you can get one at $1,100, maybe a bit less, and it's definitely worth it. As for FALs, avoid Century Arms at all costs, go for something like DSA, same price range as the PTR91, great rifles.

Would [url]http://www.impactguns.com/store/DSA-STG58T1.html[/url] be a good buy for the price, then?

[img]http://world.guns.ru/smg/mgd-pm7.jpg[/img] Do you count this as a gun? Some information on it: Caliber: 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum Weight: 2,53 kg empty Length (stock closed/open): 359 / 659 mm Barrel length: 213 mm Rate of fire: 750 rounds per minute Magazine capacity: 32 rounds Effective range: 100 meters Delicious copypasta.

I'd go with a G3 variant because surplus German magazines are selling for a dollar each and if you don't like the stock and grips your comes with you can buy full OD/Black narrow/wide grip stock sets for under 20 bucks. That and G3s have no gas system, they can eat the worst ammo you can toss into them without fouling up. Granted, there are rollers to worry about but they don't cause much trouble. If I lived in a state that doesn't suck I would have owned one by now. But G3 vs. FAL vs. M1a is a pretty level playing field and it's mostly preference, just as it is with 5.56 and 7.62x39mm guns. So try both and go with what you like best.

[QUOTE=dvsilverwing;19262316]Would [url]http://www.impactguns.com/store/DSA-STG58T1.html[/url] be a good buy for the price, then?[/QUOTE] Perfect. I'd shop around some first though, you might find a used one for cheaper. [QUOTE=Fippe;19262504][img]http://world.guns.ru/smg/mgd-pm7.jpg[/img] Do you count this as a gun? Some information on it: Caliber: 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum Weight: 2,53 kg empty Length (stock closed/open): 359 / 659 mm Barrel length: 213 mm Rate of fire: 750 rounds per minute Magazine capacity: 32 rounds Effective range: 100 meters Delicious copypasta.[/QUOTE] Of course not, that's obviously a knife. [editline]06:10PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Bean-O;19262615]I'd go with a G3 variant because surplus German magazines are selling for a dollar each and if you don't like the stock and grips your comes with you can buy full OD/Black narrow/wide grip stock sets for under 20 bucks. That and G3s have no gas system, they can eat the worst ammo you can toss into them without fouling up. Granted, there are rollers to worry about but they don't cause much trouble. If I lived in a state that doesn't suck I would have owned one by now. But G3 vs. FAL vs. M1a is a pretty level playing field and it's mostly preference, just as it is with 5.56 and 7.62x39mm guns. So try both and go with what you like best.[/QUOTE] Actually, I've used some Venezuelan ammo in my CETME that gummed it up so bad it wouldn't cycle anymore. They pretty much shit where they eat, they may be able to eat up any kind of ammo without exploding, but they won't be able to do it forever. However they are incredibly reliable guns, don't get me wrong, they're also very accurate and I love the sights. I wouldn't hesitate to take one over a FAL.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;19262628]Of course not, that's obviously a knife.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I weren't totally sure but then I thought that "hey, frenchies didn't make good guns back in 30's...". Obviously it's a knife, but I had to make sure. It sucks. :v:

[QUOTE=Fippe;19262914]Yeah, I weren't totally sure but then I thought that "hey, frenchies didn't make good guns back in 30's...". Obviously it's a knife, but I had to make sure. It sucks. :v:[/QUOTE] I don't think the French have ever made a decent gun. Besides the Mas 49, that ones hot.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;19263051]I don't think the French have ever made a decent gun. Besides the Mas 49, that ones hot.[/QUOTE] Most of their guns aren't really that bad actually (excluding the Chauchat) nor are their soldiers, its their commanders that suck usually :P

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19263518]Most of their guns aren't really that bad actually (excluding the Chauchat) nor are their soldiers, its their commanders that suck usually :P[/QUOTE] Lebel.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;19263685]Lebel.[/QUOTE] The Lebel wasn't even close to being as bad as the Chauchat. Hell, it wasnt really that bad at all actually, other than using an odd round and being long.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;19262628] Actually, I've used some Venezuelan ammo in my CETME that gummed it up so bad it wouldn't cycle anymore. [/QUOTE] There's a bit of a difference between a CETME and a G3. The former, I've heard, is a bit hit-or-miss. But I figure since you're the one that actually owns one have you had a chance to compare yours with a G3 clone? [editline]07:28PM[/editline] [QUOTE=mugofdoom;19263051]I don't think the French have ever made a decent gun. Besides the Mas 49, that ones hot.[/QUOTE] And the Lebel. And Manurhin MR73. And the FAMAS. etc.

[QUOTE=Bean-O;19265482]There's a bit of a difference between a CETME and a G3. The former, I've heard, is a bit hit-or-miss. But I figure since you're the one that actually owns one have you had a chance to compare yours with a G3 clone? [editline]07:28PM[/editline] And the Lebel. And Manurhin MR73. And the FAMAS. etc.[/QUOTE] I built my CETME, it's up to par with any other G3. In their military configuration, they really aren't very different. Also the Lebel was pretty shit. FAMAs is kinda meh, dunno what the Manurhin is though.

The French have had better success with their weapons lately, but they're nothing stand-out special. Most people would prefer any German/British/American weapon over any French one.

Hey facepunch, I'm considering buying a gun for personal defense, but I have almost no experience with guns whatsoever. What would you reccomend? Preferably something under $1000.

[QUOTE=hayden;19266603]Hey facepunch, I'm considering buying a gun for personal defense, but I have almost no experience with guns whatsoever. What would you reccomend? Preferably something under $1000.[/QUOTE] Berretta 500$ I think

[QUOTE=hayden;19266603]Hey facepunch, I'm considering buying a gun for personal defense, but I have almost no experience with guns whatsoever. What would you reccomend? Preferably something under $1000.[/QUOTE] Depending on where you live, its tough to beat a good pistol-gripped 12ga shotgun. Pistols are a decent alternative, but require a license and are usually more expensive. Why shotguns: -Versatility in ammuntion: Slugs for stopping power, Birdshot for urban environments where you don't want heavy penetration, and buckshot for a middle-of-the-road round. -Intimidation: Its not uncommon for people to run at the sound of a shotguns pump being racked -Stopping power: A shotgun round of any variety (Other than non-lethal rounds obviously) is almost certain to incapacitate your target with one shot. [editline]03:40AM[/editline] [QUOTE=PILLS HERE!;19266683]Berretta 500$ I think[/QUOTE] That could literally mean more than 100 different guns.

[QUOTE=PILLS HERE!;19266683]Berretta 500$ I think[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.imagehosting.com/][img]http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6554/berrettasearch.png[/img][/url] Yeah...

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19266696]Why shotguns: -Versatility in ammuntion: Slugs for stopping power, Birdshot for urban environments where you don't want heavy penetration, and buckshot for a middle-of-the-road round. -Intimidation: Its not uncommon for people to run at the sound of a shotguns pump being racked -Stopping power: A shotgun round of any variety (Other than non-lethal rounds obviously) is almost certain to incapacitate your target with one shot.[/QUOTE] If this is a troll post, I'm calling it right now.

[QUOTE=Carnotite;19267148]If this is a troll post, I'm calling it right now.[/QUOTE] Why would that be a troll post?

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19268262]Why would that be a troll post?[/QUOTE] It's all correct except for birdshot, there's a reason it's named that. It does nothing but make a nasty although very shallow wound. It will hurt like hell, but it won't stop your target. [QUOTE=Bean-O;19262615]That and G3s have no gas system, they can eat the worst ammo you can toss into them without fouling up.[/QUOTE] lolno, It's the exact opposite. Contrary to popular belief; DI doesn't shit where it eats, roller delayed blowback does.

[QUOTE=Loen;19269432]It's all correct except for birdshot, there's a reason it's named that. It does nothing but make a nasty although very shallow wound. It will hurt like hell, but it won't stop your target.[/QUOTE] Common misconception due to birdshots lack of long range penetration. At home-defense range (less than 30 feet) although the shot might not penetrate far into the assailant, will still cause a tremendous amount of shock damage, enough to be lethal in many cases, but incapacitating at the least. Edit: The Box o' truth is true. For boxes ;). It doesn't take into account the physical effect of being hit.

[QUOTE=PILLS HERE!;19266683]Berretta 500$ I think[/QUOTE] Beretta has been around for over 500 years. They have made everything under the sun. So that's pretty vague. I'm assuming you mean the 92 or 96 like the one used by the US. (which, specifically is the 92FS) [QUOTE=Timebomb757;19266696]Depending on where you live, its tough to beat a good pistol-gripped 12ga shotgun. Pistols are a decent alternative, but require a license and are usually more expensive. Why shotguns: -Versatility in ammuntion: Slugs for stopping power, Birdshot for urban environments where you don't want heavy penetration, and buckshot for a middle-of-the-road round. -Intimidation: Its not uncommon for people to run at the sound of a shotguns pump being racked -Stopping power: A shotgun round of any variety (Other than non-lethal rounds obviously) is almost certain to incapacitate your target with one shot. [/QUOTE] They also recoil a lot. Shotguns do have their purpose for HD but I think a pistol can be placed in a better location and is handier in the tight spaces. Also pistol grips on a shotgun are a bad idea for new shooters. You need a good solid stock because otherwise you will either not be able to hit anything (firing from the hip) or you will knock your front teeth out (not holding it properly when aiming). [QUOTE=Loen;19269432] lolno, It's the exact opposite. Contrary to popular belief; DI doesn't shit where it eats, roller delayed blowback does.[/QUOTE] I'm basing my opinion off a person I met who owns one. Granted, a Californicated variant. But still a G3. Although now that you point it out I think he was referring to cartridges firing, rather than the amount of residue he'd have to clean out after the fact so you're probably right. [QUOTE=hayden;19266603]Hey facepunch, I'm considering buying a gun for personal defense, but I have almost no experience with guns whatsoever. What would you reccomend? Preferably something under $1000.[/QUOTE] Ok, 1k as a budget... First off, unless you plan to only own one gun everyone should have a .22LR rifle or pistol. They are cheap, their ammo runs less than 5 cents a shot and they are an essential way of learning the basics of gun ownership and marksmanship. Cheap, quiet, virtually no recoil. BUT, they aren't ideal for self-defense because they are simply not powerful enough. They'll get the job done, but only after you dump the whole magazine. As for handguns we have automatics vs. revolvers. The former tend to have a greater magazine capacity and reload faster, the latter tend to be more reliable, powerful and intimidating. Still depends on the gun. The most common recommendation is a snubnosed .38 because it has all the virtues of a revolver (except for power) but it very handy and typically quite affordable. In my opinion go with a medium-sized .357 Magnum. (like a 4 inch Ruger SP101 or S&W) Those will chamber and fire the cheaper and weaker .38 bullets while giving you the option of using .357 which is a fierce manstopper when you really need it. Used ones tend to be affordable, somewhere in the 300-500$ range. Snoop around. Practice mostly with .38 bullets to save cost but don't be shy on the more expensive .357s while you're on the range either. With automatics it's mostly .45ACP vs. 9mm. The former has a lot more punch, but is tougher to use and has less magazine capacity, the latter is way easier to use and some guns come with magazines crammed with as many as 20 rounds. Way more than you'll need. Heck, the first shot should send them running, but having 19 more just in case can't hurt but following that logic the revolver wins out because you really don't need that many rounds. You just need it to work. As for long guns we have ye ole shotgun. A classic. First off, no pistol grips. Just, no. Go with a full stock and a 20-18 inch barrel (anything under 18 inches is illegal). Unless you're a sissy 12 gauge will suit you just fine. Birdshot is for practice. It runs 25 cents a shot. Buckshot is the real deal. More like 1-2$ per round but still practice with it as well because there is a big difference in felt recoil between the two. As for the gun itself... Singles or doubles will work, you're mostly aiming to scare them off so that first shot will scatter all but that most determined adversary. Ideally, a second shot would be nice. Pump-actions are the most common choice. They are the cheapest, running 200-400 for a good one. That's new. Not used. Not beat up. Not shot to hell. New. There are numerous good ones out there like Remington 870, Mossberg 500, Winchester 1300 and their many clones. These guns tend to be more or less indestructible. They will serve you well, provided a minimal degree of maintainable. That and the sound of one being pumped will send anyone with any second thoughts scattering. For what you get they're a bargain. Semi-automatics offer a faster rate of fire, but there's more complexity and therefore a higher price tag and more that can go wrong. People tend to avoid them for HD, but they aren't by any stretch of the imagination bad. No more so than an automatic pistol or rifle. Just be sure that the ammo you plan to use cycles properly. Shotgun shells work like this. There is a primer, gunpowder, a wad to dampen recoil (usually), a cup that holds the shot together, the projectiles and some crimping to hold all that in place. That's why they are on the expensive side. The shot ratings work like this. On a scale of usually #8 to 000. #8 being hundreds and hundreds of tiny pellets not meant for human-sized targets, 0 being slightly bigger than human-sized (the projectiles are .32 inches in diameter). 00 is the most common anti-human load carried by military and LE and is therefore popular for home defense. But there are only 9 pellets. In 000 there are 12 but the shell is longer, so less tube capacity. Another common shotgun shell is the #4 which on that scale fires about 20 or so .22 caliber pellets. Not as powerful as 00 but it'll most likely get the job done. Slugs are used to reach out and touch someone if they are just out of your range. Since 00 or #4 can't reach beyond 25-50 yards with any real chance of most of the pellets hitting you want a backup in case your target happens to be just out of rock-chucking distance. Slugs are basically shotgun shells that fire a single, solid projectile which transfers roughly the same power as a speeding freight train on impact. But, there's no spread and with the smoothbore barrel they're only good out to 100 yards at best. That and they have punishing recoil. Not for use inside the house. As for rifles. Basically a 5.56mm or a 7.62x39mm. 7.62 NATO is strictly overkill. Even with the lighter intermediate calibers mentioned earlier there is a high risk of collateral damage. A centerfire autoloading rifle is indispensable in case society breaks down like it did in Katrina and the 1992 Rodney King riots. But not ideal for home invasions. Stick with handguns and shotguns. So what do I think you should get? Depends on what you want. (price estimations are pessimistic) -Revolver .357 4 inch either Ruger, S&W or other good brand. Used, 500-ish. Snubnosed guns tend to cost about that much new, if you go that route don't buy a .357, that caliber is uncontrollable in a small gun. +300$ for a .22 rifle or pistol. Preferably a pistol in this case. Leaves you 200$+ for cleaning kits, ammo and the like. -Automatic --9x19mm Springfield XD/Glock/Beretta/SIG or other. Good automatics cost about the same as good revolvers. Heck, sometimes cheaper. Some Rugers run under 300$ used but I don't know how good they are. Again, save 300$ for a .22LR pistol. You can also do conversion kits for the same pistol, but they tend to cost as much as a standalone gun. --.45ACP Expensive. Most likely a 1911 variant. Good guns but the high-quality ones will max out your budget for the gun alone. Taurus makes a decent one but it's 700 bucks or so. Still leaves you with enough for a .22 pistol. You can also do conversion kits for the same .45 pistol, but they tend to cost as much as a standalone gun. --There are also good guns in calibers such as .40S&W which is an intermediate between 9mm and .45ACP. -Pump Shotgun 300-400 bucks new, leaves you plenty for a good .22 rifle, not that they cost much. Could come out to as much as 400$ under-budget until you start paying for buckshot to practice with.

[QUOTE=hayden;19266603]Hey facepunch, I'm considering buying a gun for personal defense, but I have almost no experience with guns whatsoever. What would you reccomend? Preferably something under $1000.[/QUOTE] Just as Bean-O said, you should buy a .22LR gun first. .22LR rifles are pretty cheap, starting from around 200 bucks and can go up to 500 bucks. They are easy to acquire, since they don't require a license. Rounds are extremely cheap; you can get a box of 50 for about 6 bucks. They have almost no felt recoil, and are pretty light. It isn't very good for home defense though, as the bullet is very small and won't cause much, unless the bullet is a hollow point or the victim is stopped because of shock. Getting a .22 will help you learn responsibility and care of guns, etc.

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19269733]Common misconception due to birdshots lack of long range penetration. At home-defense range (less than 30 feet) although the shot might not penetrate far into the assailant, will still cause a tremendous amount of shock damage, enough to be lethal in many cases, but incapacitating at the least.[/QUOTE] Sure it will inflict a nasty wound that will bleed alot, but will it effectively penetrate deep enough to cause critical damage to major organs? You don't want to wound your assailant and have him bleed to death sometime later on, you want to STOP him immediately.

What's with all the fuss about guns? I just want one that can kill people incase I need it.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;19271289]What's with all the fuss about guns? I just want one that can kill people incase I need it.[/QUOTE] So long as you start with a .22 :v: And so long as you don't kill no body that don't need killin'.

[QUOTE=Bean-O;19270458]Beretta has been around for over 500 years. They have made everything under the sun. So that's pretty vague. I'm assuming you mean the 92 or 96 like the one used by the US. (which, specifically is the 92FS) They also recoil a lot. Shotguns do have their purpose for HD but I think a pistol can be placed in a better location and is handier in the tight spaces. Also pistol grips on a shotgun are a bad idea for new shooters. You need a good solid stock because otherwise you will either not be able to hit anything (firing from the hip) or you will knock your front teeth out (not holding it properly when aiming). I'm basing my opinion off a person I met who owns one. Granted, a Californicated variant. But still a G3. Although now that you point it out I think he was referring to cartridges firing, rather than the amount of residue he'd have to clean out after the fact so you're probably right. Ok, 1k as a budget... First off, unless you plan to only own one gun everyone should have a .22LR rifle or pistol. They are cheap, their ammo runs less than 5 cents a shot and they are an essential way of learning the basics of gun ownership and marksmanship. Cheap, quiet, virtually no recoil. BUT, they aren't ideal for self-defense because they are simply not powerful enough. They'll get the job done, but only after you dump the whole magazine. As for handguns we have automatics vs. revolvers. The former tend to have a greater magazine capacity and reload faster, the latter tend to be more reliable, powerful and intimidating. Still depends on the gun. The most common recommendation is a snubnosed .38 because it has all the virtues of a revolver (except for power) but it very handy and typically quite affordable. In my opinion go with a medium-sized .357 Magnum. (like a 4 inch Ruger SP101 or S&W) Those will chamber and fire the cheaper and weaker .38 bullets while giving you the option of using .357 which is a fierce manstopper when you really need it. Used ones tend to be affordable, somewhere in the 300-500$ range. Snoop around. Practice mostly with .38 bullets to save cost but don't be shy on the more expensive .357s while you're on the range either. With automatics it's mostly .45ACP vs. 9mm. The former has a lot more punch, but is tougher to use and has less magazine capacity, the latter is way easier to use and some guns come with magazines crammed with as many as 20 rounds. Way more than you'll need. Heck, the first shot should send them running, but having 19 more just in case can't hurt but following that logic the revolver wins out because you really don't need that many rounds. You just need it to work. As for long guns we have ye ole shotgun. A classic. First off, no pistol grips. Just, no. Go with a full stock and a 20-18 inch barrel (anything under 18 inches is illegal). Unless you're a sissy 12 gauge will suit you just fine. Birdshot is for practice. It runs 25 cents a shot. Buckshot is the real deal. More like 1-2$ per round but still practice with it as well because there is a big difference in felt recoil between the two. As for the gun itself... Singles or doubles will work, you're mostly aiming to scare them off so that first shot will scatter all but that most determined adversary. Ideally, a second shot would be nice. Pump-actions are the most common choice. They are the cheapest, running 200-400 for a good one. That's new. Not used. Not beat up. Not shot to hell. New. There are numerous good ones out there like Remington 870, Mossberg 500, Winchester 1300 and their many clones. These guns tend to be more or less indestructible. They will serve you well, provided a minimal degree of maintainable. That and the sound of one being pumped will send anyone with any second thoughts scattering. For what you get they're a bargain. Semi-automatics offer a faster rate of fire, but there's more complexity and therefore a higher price tag and more that can go wrong. People tend to avoid them for HD, but they aren't by any stretch of the imagination bad. No more so than an automatic pistol or rifle. Just be sure that the ammo you plan to use cycles properly. Shotgun shells work like this. There is a primer, gunpowder, a wad to dampen recoil (usually), a cup that holds the shot together, the projectiles and some crimping to hold all that in place. That's why they are on the expensive side. The shot ratings work like this. On a scale of usually #8 to 000. #8 being hundreds and hundreds of tiny pellets not meant for human-sized targets, 0 being slightly bigger than human-sized (the projectiles are .32 inches in diameter). 00 is the most common anti-human load carried by military and LE and is therefore popular for home defense. But there are only 9 pellets. In 000 there are 12 but the shell is longer, so less tube capacity. Another common shotgun shell is the #4 which on that scale fires about 20 or so .22 caliber pellets. Not as powerful as 00 but it'll most likely get the job done. Slugs are used to reach out and touch someone if they are just out of your range. Since 00 or #4 can't reach beyond 25-50 yards with any real chance of most of the pellets hitting you want a backup in case your target happens to be just out of rock-chucking distance. Slugs are basically shotgun shells that fire a single, solid projectile which transfers roughly the same power as a speeding freight train on impact. But, there's no spread and with the smoothbore barrel they're only good out to 100 yards at best. That and they have punishing recoil. Not for use inside the house. As for rifles. Basically a 5.56mm or a[b] 7.62x39mm.[/b] 7.62 NATO is strictly overkill. Even with the lighter intermediate calibers mentioned earlier there is a high risk of collateral damage. A centerfire autoloading rifle is indispensable in case society breaks down like it did in Katrina and the 1992 Rodney King riots. But not ideal for home invasions. Stick with handguns and shotguns. So what do I think you should get? Depends on what you want. (price estimations are pessimistic) -Revolver .357 4 inch either Ruger, S&W or other good brand. Used, 500-ish. Snubnosed guns tend to cost about that much new, if you go that route don't buy a .357, that caliber is uncontrollable in a small gun. +300$ for a .22 rifle or pistol. Preferably a pistol in this case. Leaves you 200$+ for cleaning kits, ammo and the like. -Automatic --9x19mm Springfield XD/Glock/Beretta/SIG or other. Good automatics cost about the same as good revolvers. Heck, sometimes cheaper. Some Rugers run under 300$ used but I don't know how good they are. Again, save 300$ for a .22LR pistol. You can also do conversion kits for the same pistol, but they tend to cost as much as a standalone gun. --.45ACP Expensive. Most likely a 1911 variant. Good guns but the high-quality ones will max out your budget for the gun alone. Taurus makes a decent one but it's 700 bucks or so. Still leaves you with enough for a .22 pistol. You can also do conversion kits for the same .45 pistol, but they tend to cost as much as a standalone gun. --There are also good guns in calibers such as .40S&W which is an intermediate between 9mm and .45ACP. -Pump Shotgun 300-400 bucks new, leaves you plenty for a good .22 rifle, not that they cost much. Could come out to as much as 400$ under-budget until you start paying for buckshot to practice with.[/QUOTE] Heh, the area where I live, 7.62x39 rounds cost about 120 bucks for 20 of them. (according to my dad's friend that's how much they cost. Either that or he doesn't like me shooting his Ak-47 :v: )

[QUOTE=Glitch360;19271368]Heh, the area where I live, 7.62x39 rounds cost about 120 bucks for 20 of them. (according to my dad's friend that's how much they cost. Either that or he doesn't like me shooting his Ak-47 :v: )[/QUOTE] 6 bucks for a single round of 7.62x39? Maybe 60 cents at most.

[QUOTE=Loen;19271440]6 bucks for a single round of 7.62x39? Maybe 60 cents at most.[/QUOTE] Yea, maybe. He's lying to me, or he buys ammo from a place where everyone thinks Obama will ban several categories of guns so they start selling shit at high prices...

[QUOTE=Glitch360;19271511]Yea, maybe. He's lying to me, or he buys ammo from a place where everyone thinks Obama will ban several categories of guns so they start selling shit at high prices...[/QUOTE] He's an idiot then. I live in So Cal and $5-8 for 20rds for 7.62x39 is the normal range, with better deals if you buy in bulk.