[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19289652]How likely do you think it is that the person will continue their attack once they have been hit with birdshot? Its not like a .22, that you may not even notice. And dont forget about the light recoil of birdshot, which would allow for quick follow up shots.
[/QUOTE]
This isn't video games we're talking about.
If they don't run away after seeing the gun, peppering them with bird shot isn't going to help, besides maybe piss them off.
Use something that penetrates deep and can hit vital organs. That's the only way to be assured that you can come out ahead should you ever need to use a gun.
[QUOTE=Loen;19294895]There aren't too many major blood vessels near the surface of your skin. Lets say your assailant is having an adrenaline high, you shoot him with birdshot. This causes a very nasty wound, although it's very shallow and only causes minimal bloodloss and muscular tissue damage. Because of this; he isn't affected by it and responds by shooting back at you.
Even if he runs off he could potentially survive and bring you into court making false claims. A dead man can't sue though.[/QUOTE]
This is why every time someone suggests using birdshot to shoot anything but snakes or birds, I cease talking to them about it. Birdshot on a person (hell, even a dog) will cause a lot of pain but no real damage to speak of. You'll mostly flay their skin off and yeah, it'll be really nasty, but it's not going to do anything to actually slow or stop a determined attack. 00 Buckshot, on the other hand, will bury 20-30 pellets (roughly the size of a ball-bearing,) 2-3 inches inside of a person's body. That'll shred their internal organs, cause massive bleeding, and kill them a lot faster than any birdshot.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19295396]This isn't video games we're talking about.
If they don't run away after seeing the gun, peppering them with bird shot isn't going to help, besides maybe piss them off.
Use something that penetrates deep and can hit vital organs. That's the only way to be assured that you can come out ahead should you ever need to use a gun.[/QUOTE]
Your an idiot... Bird shot hurts like a mother fucker... probebly more then a .22 because it covers a huge area of your body and penetrates about 1-2cm into you... I was hit by a few and two got into my shin and it was very painfull if you get a direct hit to the chest with 50-60 its of lead or steel flying at 1000fps or more, yeah it might not kill you but you will not be getting up afterwards for a long while.
In the end though, this (Birdshot as a defensive load) is an argument with no real decisive end. Hell, people who have much more knowledge about ballistics and firearms still have this argument.
Evidence shows that it is effective in certain cases, and not effective in others, like many other methods of defending oneself. If you are prepared for follow up shots, and dont want to shred any of your personal property, maybe you use birdshot. IF thats not an issue, then #4 or 00 (hell, maybe slugs) would be a good round for you.
Its mostly preference.
[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19297128]In the end though, this (Birdshot as a defensive load) is an argument with no real decisive end. Hell, people who have much more knowledge about ballistics and firearms still have this argument.
Evidence shows that it is effective in certain cases, and not effective in others, like many other methods of defending oneself. If you are prepared for follow up shots, and dont want to shred any of your personal property, maybe you use birdshot. IF thats not an issue, then #4 or 00 (hell, maybe slugs) would be a good round for you.
Its mostly preference.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't use slugs... less chance of hitting in close quaters.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19284998]The Anabelle is a minor fuckup.
The Half-Life franchise has a great story, great level design, great characters, but the devs just don't understand how guns work. The model of that weapon is that of a lever action rifle. Fair enough. But it has the performance characteristics of an over/under shotgun.
Why?
Because the devs looked at the magazine tube and mistook it for a second barrel, then jumped to the conclusion that it's an OU gun. This would have been fine in a beta, which I believe the original weapon model is supposed to be for. It is so shoddy I honestly think it was meant as a holdover. But they never really addressed this mistake.
It is an over/under shotgun with a lever-action rifle model.
Not the first time Valve made this mistake either. In HL1 the SPAS (which shouldn't have been there because it is a pretty rare weapon to begin with) has a secondary fire option to fire both barrels.
It only has one.
Now this can be explained by stating that Gordon could have set it in semi-auto and fired two shots really fast. But he didn't. He fires both barrels at the same time and it says that he does so in the game itself. This is the first time that Valve mistook a magazine tube for a second barrel. They did the exact same thing with the same shotgun in HL2.
Beyond that the SMG1 has no obvious accommodation for shooting grenades. In CSS you pull the forward assist out of the M4, which is impossible. Stuff like that.[/QUOTE]
they also put the bolt/whatever you call the place where shells are ejected on the wrong side, just so you can watch the shells fly out. I think every gun in css is backwards. maybe I'm wrong, but I think you generally want shells flying away from you, not at your face or in your field of vision.
[QUOTE=limulus54;19301687]they also put the bolt/whatever you call the place where shells are ejected on the wrong side, just so you can watch the shells fly out. I think every gun in css is backwards. maybe I'm wrong, but I think you generally want shells flying away from you, not at your face or in your field of vision.[/QUOTE]
The guns are designed for left-handed users, you can select it from the options menu.
[QUOTE=evilking1;19301765]The guns are designed for left-handed users, you can select it from the options menu.[/QUOTE]
really? never noticed that before.
[QUOTE=limulus54;19301803]really? never noticed that before.[/QUOTE]
No not really they are made that way so it looks cooler. But you can swap the sides from options, but I suspect that even those will throw shells in your face.
That's actually a really funny story.
In the original CS they had a left-handed weapon designer who built all the guns to be used left-handed where you would realistically see the ejection port and everything. He did it that way because it would have been more comfortable for him. Then he mirrored it to the other side and no one was the wiser.
Eventually, because CS became so popular this concept caught on because you could see the bolt cycling and it looked slightly cooler. People started thinking the ejection ports actually face the user and pretty much every FPS started doing this. STALKER even put ejection ports on BOTH sides of every firearm in the game because of this confusion. In some cases the positions of these ports would make the weapon unusable (L85, SVD, etc.)
So yeah, quite a bit of confusion over ejection ports in video games.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19302272]That's actually a really funny story.
In the original CS they had a left-handed weapon designer who built all the guns to be used left-handed where you would realistically see the ejection port and everything. He did it that way because it would have been more comfortable for him. Then he mirrored it to the other side and no one was the wiser.
Eventually, because CS became so popular this concept caught on because you could see the bolt cycling and it looked slightly cooler. People started thinking the ejection ports actually face the user and pretty much every FPS started doing this. STALKER even put ejection ports on BOTH sides of every firearm in the game because of this confusion. In some cases the positions of these ports would make the weapon unusable (L85, SVD, etc.)
So yeah, quite a bit of confusion over ejection ports in video games.[/QUOTE]
It's done that way in STALKER because the modelers are lazy and they mirrored the view models thinking no one would notice. They knew it was wrong, but they're just lazy modelers and used photo textures and mirrored their guns.
[QUOTE=Guardian-Angel;19296164]This is why every time someone suggests using birdshot to shoot anything but snakes or birds, I cease talking to them about it. Birdshot on a person (hell, even a dog) will cause a lot of pain but no real damage to speak of. You'll mostly flay their skin off and yeah, it'll be really nasty, but it's not going to do anything to actually slow or stop a determined attack. 00 Buckshot, on the other hand, will bury 20-30 pellets (roughly the size of a ball-bearing,) 2-3 inches inside of a person's body. That'll shred their internal organs, cause massive bleeding, and kill them a lot faster than any birdshot.[/QUOTE]
Please don't pretend to know what you're talking about...
00 buck only has 9 pellets for a 2-3/4" shell and 15 for a 3". (By default) 00 Buck pellets are .36 caliber (or 9mm) as well.
[editline]07:44PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=$$>MUFFIN<$$;19296742]Your an idiot... Bird shot hurts like a mother fucker... probebly more then a .22 because it covers a huge area of your body and penetrates about 1-2cm into you... I was hit by a few and two got into my shin and it was very painfull if you get a direct hit to the chest with 50-60 its of lead or steel flying at 1000fps or more, yeah it might not kill you but you will not be getting up afterwards for a long while.[/QUOTE]
You're*
And, no, I'm not.
If a gun is being shot at me, and I'm fighting for my life, some pain is not going to make me give up and die. That goes for just about every other human being walking the face of the planet.
You aren't going to feel those little pellets in a life or death situation. You won't even feel 00 buck ripping half your torso out your back side. But when everything goes black and you drop where you're standing, you're no longer a threat to the other person. And that is true stopping power, [b]not pain.[/b]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19312110]
If a gun is being shot at me, and I'm fighting for my life, some pain is not going to make me give up and die. That goes for just about every other human being walking the face of the planet.
You aren't going to feel those little pellets in a life or death situation. You won't even feel 00 buck ripping half your torso out your back side. But when everything goes black and you drop where you're standing, you're no longer a threat to the other person. And that is true stopping power, [b]not pain.[/b][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure your avarge burgular or home invader is going to drop at one shot of birdshot, i dont know about you but i don't have Hitmen come after me on a regular basis.
Here's my collection so far: Mossberg 500, Remington Fieldmaster 572, Mosin Nagant 91/30 Hex 1931 TULA with bayonet, Ruger 10/22, Smith&Wesson M&P .40, Springfield XD Sub-Compact .40, my two Fobus Paddle Holster, and my Fenix TK10 Light. Crappy quality took the pic with my Blackberry.
[IMG]http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/822/img00037200912302041.jpg[/IMG]
Shot with [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=BlackBerry+8900&make=Research+In+Motion]BlackBerry 8900[/URL] at 2009-12-30
I find myself going through this thread staring at pictures while saying "I want this one, and that one, and this one....."
[QUOTE=Ivebo;19313769]I find myself going through this thread staring at pictures while saying "I want this one, and that one, and this one....."[/QUOTE]
same
[QUOTE=Ivebo;19313769]I find myself going through this thread staring at pictures while saying "I want this one, and that one, and this one....."[/QUOTE]
yet i can't have any of them
stupid finnish gun laws
Anyone else annoyed by the damage and range inconsistencies of guns in the Call of Duty series? An M40 should not double the stopping power of a M14, considering they bot fire 7.62x51. Same with most of the 5.56 weapons.
The simple fact of the matter is, you want to put someone down? don't fuck around with the little stuff, if someones trying to kill you they deserve to die, it sounds like a shit thing to do, but it's them or you and i'm not about to let someone kill me, 00 Buck at LEAST in shotguns, preferably 000, or if your comfortable with your accuracy, slugs. If your looking at pistols nothing smaller than 9mm, and then you should put as many rounds into the fucker as you can before he hits the ground, looking at rifles? .308 preferably but 5.56 or 5.45 will do, again you just need to shoot them as many times as you can before they hit the ground.
Personally for home defense I use my Ak-74, it has very little recoil, I can hit a man sized target center mass at 100 yards with ease, and due to the low recoil I can get many shots out and on target in a short amount of time, it's also the firearm I own I feel the most comfortable with.
Well, if someone takes 7 .380's to the chest they're probably gonna die too. I still agree with you though.
[QUOTE=BurningPlayd0h;19317165]Well, if someone takes 7 .380's to the chest they're probably gonna die too. I still agree with you though.[/QUOTE]
Protip: .380 IS 9mm, 9mm rounds include 9mm Parabellum (9x19) 9mm Makarov (9x18) and .380 (9x17)
I meant specifically 9mm kurz (short), as in the kind used by the Bersa thunder and Ruger LCP.
Regardless of the casing size, 9mm is 9mm, and 3-4 9mm rounds to center mass will kill someone easily, and serves your needs.
Good old Glock 35 chamberd in 9mm... we have a .357sig barrel but no other .357sig parts.
[QUOTE=40kplayer;19277841]Quick Question, what is a good state for owning firearms? Indiana? Ohio? Colorado? Alaska?[/QUOTE]
Probably the top five states for guns in terms of what you can have, and how you can use them, would be
1. Alaska
2. Montana
3. Wyoming
4. Idaho
5. Utah
(not necessarily in that order)
The Western states have much more lax gun laws than the Southern ones, many of whom still have old Jim Crow gun laws on the books. The worst, on the other hand, would be California (my home state), New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and perhaps either Massachusetts or Maine. DC goes without saying.
[editline]02:57AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=$$>MUFFIN<$$;19313304]I'm pretty sure your avarge burgular or home invader is going to drop at one shot of birdshot, i dont know about you but i don't have Hitmen come after me on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
I can tell you you are wrong and have many cops, coroners and acquaintances who have actually been in that situation vouch for me.
The only area I would consider a possible one-shot stop with birdshot in a non-drugged BG would be the face, and if he's on crack or meth s/he might not stop. Sure, every once in a while someone will be killed with birdshot, but there are far more cases of the opposite happening, where the good guy fails to stop the threat and gets owned. No man in a firefight ever wished he had a smaller gun that held less and weaker bullets. Always prepare for one step worse than what is likely to happen.
Personally, if I were going to run an HD shotgun (which I will be buying in a month or two), due to the circumstances in which I live, I would run a shell of BB birdshot in the chamber, backed up by a few #4 buck and finally 00 if the others failed to stop the threat. I will agree to the use of BB shot because it is decently large enough and has enough energy to cause serious damage at close range. Quite a bit more wallop than the 8 or 7.5 shot that most people think of when they think bird shot.
[editline]03:02AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zatharon;19317479]Regardless of the casing size, 9mm is 9mm, and 3-4 9mm rounds to center mass will kill someone easily, and serves your needs.[/QUOTE]
You are familiar with how bullets work and why they penetrate, right? Penetration is a function of many things, including the size, weight, velocity, and construction of a bullet. A standard-pressure .380ACP/9mm Kurz, even though it is the same diameter as a 9mm +P+, is not going to penetrate as much, because it is a lighter bullet traveling at lower velocity and thus has less energy. The same model of gun, one chambered in .380 and the other in 9mm, is 99% of the time going to penetrate farther with an equivalent 9mm load.
Why is this important? Because if a bullet can't penetrate far enough to reach the spine or the vital organs, it is not going to stop the target. As the saying goes, that which does not kill me, probably won't kill the guy shooting at me.
This will probably crawl up the ass of many here, but you know what's a far better investment for home defense than a firearm? A trained protection dog.
Here's why:
A) Deterrent. You don't keep your firearms in plain view. A large aggressive dog poses a psychological threat.
B) Alarm and control. A dog can simultaneously isolate and alert you to the position of a threat inside of your house.
C) Iniative and ferocity. A trained protection dog has both these qualities, qualities that win fights. While most humans will "freeze" when placed in a fight or flight situation for the first time, a trained dog will not. As such, they will always take the iniative.
Besides if you have a family, the dog will make a great pet. Contrary to popular belief protection dogs aren't devoid of personality or playfulness. They can however, be high tension. Combine with a smart firearm decision, and you've got a solid home protection investment.
[QUOTE=professional;19321750]This will probably crawl up the ass of many here, but you know what's a far better investment for home defense than a firearm? A trained protection dog.
Here's why:
A) Deterrent. You don't keep your firearms in plain view. A large aggressive dog poses a psychological threat.
B) Alarm and control. A dog can simultaneously isolate and alert you to the position of a threat inside of your house.
C) Iniative and ferocity. A trained protection dog has both these qualities, qualities that win fights. While most humans will "freeze" when placed in a fight or flight situation for the first time, a trained dog will not. As such, they will always take the iniative.
Besides if you have a family, the dog will make a great pet. Contrary to popular belief protection dogs aren't devoid of personality or playfulness. They can however, be high tension. Combine with a smart firearm decision, and you've got a solid home protection investment.[/QUOTE]
Except for dealing with everything else that comes along with pet ownership.
[editline]07:04AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=$$>MUFFIN<$$;19313304]I'm pretty sure your avarge burgular or home invader is going to drop at one shot of birdshot, i dont know about you but i don't have Hitmen come after me on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
You don't listen very well.
Oh well, when you have some punny kid stab you to death after you shoot him with bird shot... Oh wait, you can't talk if you're dead.
[editline]07:28AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=spitfire3088;19313675]Here's my collection so far: Mossberg 500, Remington Fieldmaster 572, Mosin Nagant 91/30 Hex 1931 TULA with bayonet, Ruger 10/22, Smith&Wesson M&P .40, Springfield XD Sub-Compact .40, my two Fobus Paddle Holster, and my Fenix TK10 Light. Crappy quality took the pic with my Blackberry.
[IMG]http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/822/img00037200912302041.jpg[/IMG]
Shot with [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=BlackBerry+8900&make=Research+In+Motion]BlackBerry 8900[/URL] at 2009-12-30[/QUOTE]
What did you do to that poor 10/22?
That almost brought tears to my eyes... Damn man....
This is how you're supposed to customize a 10/22:
[img]http://www.1022.ca/StockDup/march10/Canadian_Custom_Ruger_10_22_1975_s.JPG[/img]
It's not an AR15 tacticool rifle, stop pretending that it is.
Also, pistol grip on a mossberg is WORTHLESS. You can't access the safety. It's fine on a remington but not a mossberg. Get a proper stock on that shotgun so you can actually use it.
[editline]07:39AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zatharon;19317047]The simple fact of the matter is, you want to put someone down? don't fuck around with the little stuff, if someones trying to kill you they deserve to die, it sounds like a shit thing to do, but it's them or you and i'm not about to let someone kill me, 00 Buck at LEAST in shotguns, preferably 000, or if your comfortable with your accuracy, slugs.[/QUOTE]
I just want to let you know, #4 buckshot is still acceptable for home defense if there's a possibility of over penetration being a problem. #4 is still .22 caliber
As for your recommendation on 9mm, yea, sure. But only in +p+ loadings. It'll come very close to a .357 magnum in muzzle energy, believe it or not.
[QUOTE=Whatwhat1337;19321340]
You are familiar with how bullets work and why they penetrate, right? Penetration is a function of many things, including the size, weight, velocity, and construction of a bullet. A standard-pressure .380ACP/9mm Kurz, even though it is the same diameter as a 9mm +P+, is not going to penetrate as much, because it is a lighter bullet traveling at lower velocity and thus has less energy. The same model of gun, one chambered in .380 and the other in 9mm, is 99% of the time going to penetrate farther with an equivalent 9mm load.
Why is this important? Because if a bullet can't penetrate far enough to reach the spine or the vital organs, it is not going to stop the target. As the saying goes, that which does not kill me, probably won't kill the guy shooting at me.[/QUOTE]
At close range it wont matter as much, and I can 100% guarantee you that a .380 shot at close range will penetrate more than enough to put someone down, especially with multiple shots on target, which would be the primary advantage of using a low power 9mm, being able to shoot accurately multiple times quicker.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19322133]Except for dealing with everything else that comes along with pet ownership.
[editline]07:04AM[/editline]
You don't listen very well.
Oh well, when you have some punny kid stab you to death after you shoot him with bird shot... Oh wait, you can't talk if you're dead.
[editline]07:28AM[/editline]
What did you do to that poor 10/22?
That almost brought tears to my eyes... Damn man....
This is how you're supposed to customize a 10/22:
[img]http://www.1022.ca/StockDup/march10/Canadian_Custom_Ruger_10_22_1975_s.JPG[/img]
It's not an AR15 tacticool rifle, stop pretending that it is.
[/QUOTE]
The 10-22 was never meant to be a super-ergonomic super-accurate sniper rifle either
Adding an extended clip, a red dot sight, lightening it up and making it easier to handle increases the fun of plinking with a 10/22 in my opinion
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19212697]How much did that set you back?
Also if you hadn't had a chance to shoot it yet I highly recommend you do so. Shooting .357 mag takes a bit of practice. Start with .38 Special (which a .357 can chamber and fire without any problems), move on to .38+P and finally .357 loads. Do it until you're comfortable and confident that you can effectively and accurately shoot that weapon under stress.
Also I hope you have a cleaning kit for that thing because contrary to their simplistic appearance revolvers need to be cleaned too. Depending on the ammo in your case every couple hundred rounds or so.[/QUOTE]
I paid $400 for the Colt Trooper. I've shot around 400 rounds through it. I use 38 +p for target shooting, 357 mag for home defense.
As far as recoil and "sKiLLz", I shoot it at 100 yards usually.
Also, I don't aggree with people who say, "bIrDsHoT DosNt WoRk". It can EASILY penetrate. In fact, birdshot can easily KILL a person.
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