[QUOTE=DrMortician;19673434]I just knock .45acp because everyone thinks it's the best thing ever made, when it's been improved on time and time again, but because of people's stuborness, the improvements never get off the ground. .45SMC, .45SUPER, .460Rowland, .45gap... All improvements over the basic .45acp.
I'm just as progressive with my firearms as I am with my politics.
The .45acp works, yes it does... But so does the .45colt that came before it. And the .45 schofield.
We moved on from those rounds because better things were developed but now days people don't want to keep moving forward, they seem to want to move backwards.
A standard 1911 has a lot of kinks to it and is extremely easy to fuck up by someone who isn't used to the weapon. You have a 1 piece extractor that's able to be bent or broken by a round chambering incorrectly which requires a gun smith to re-tune the gun before it's safe to use again. Not a problem with any modern designs. It's also a very complicated gun to work on as opposed to almost all modern weapons. And most 1911s are extremely picky about what they'll eat without extensive modifactions.
I've owned almost everything now except for an H&K product. I've owned guns in more calibers than I can possibly count and I also reload on a regular basis. The .45acp is an old and tired round that needs retired for the superior designs currently available. You can run .45super in a 1911 by only changing the recoil spring and firing pin spring... Which costs about $8 and a few minutes of work, and you can still run .45acp. Just look up and make sure the gun can handle the higher pressures. People just need to start supporting these excellent rounds instead of letting them die out of their unwillingness to accept change. If anything, they're going to be more accurate and more reliable than your old tired .45acp.
Want to be on the cutting edge and have something chambered in a mass produced caliber? Go with a 9mm rated for +P+ and enjoy scoffing at your friends 45s who can't shoot through 1/16th inch steel plates.[/QUOTE]
See, there's a problem with 9mm. It over-penetrates. Severely.
If I were to stand outside my house, and take one shot with my 9mm, it's likely that it will go through the siding, through 3 walls, and out the other side of my house, before continuing into my neighbor's home.
A .45ACP will go through the siding, and *maybe* into one wall.
[QUOTE=Splode a Pinga;19673504]See, there's a problem with 9mm. It over-penetrates. Severely.
If I were to stand outside my house, and take one shot with my 9mm, it's likely that it will go through the siding, through 3 walls, and out the other side of my house, before continuing into my neighbor's home.
A .45ACP will go through the siding, and *maybe* into one wall.[/QUOTE]
You don't know anything about ballistics at all.
I suggest you get your info from some place other than the redneck hicks who propagate this bullshit.
[editline]08:56PM[/editline]
How many times must this be posted?
[img]http://www.johnwmyers.com/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Hackintosh;19005076][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y54aLcC3G74[/media]
Now that's a gun.[/QUOTE]
That's cool and all, but if you had to load and fire that thing at 1,000 charging people, you would be fucked..
[QUOTE=radioactive;19655115]No because those are obsolete.[/QUOTE]
What the Christ? Quit watching Futureweapons. There is jack shit wrong with the M2, in fact it's probably one of the greatest firearms ever built. The thing will be in use as long or longer than the B-52.
[QUOTE=mastermaul;19674985]What the Christ? Quit watching Futureweapons. There is jack shit wrong with the M2, in fact it's probably one of the greatest firearms ever built. The thing will be in use as long or longer than the B-52.[/QUOTE]
It came close to being replaced in the mid 80's. A dual-feed HMG from FN firing a 15-15.5mm round was set to replace it. BRG-15 was the name. Could penetrate both sides of a modern APC from 1000 yards. But it was shelved because of design flaws in the barrel and cartridge, only be redesigned and shelved AGAIN because of financial issues. But FN seems to be doing well lately, so we'll see what happens to our beloved MaDeuce.
[QUOTE=monkeymadness;19674148]That's cool and all, but if you had to load and fire that thing at 1,000 charging people, you would be fucked..[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's intended for human targets. maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that is intended to be mounted on a ship, and most likely fired on other ships.
[QUOTE=limulus54;19675922]I don't think it's intended for human targets. maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that is intended to be mounted on a ship, and most likely fired on other ships.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that's what the intent is. A large caliber, high velocity projectile with a fuckton of kenetic energy. You could punch gnarly holes in the hulls of ships, buildings, or anything else.
Imagine what one of those would do to a tank though.. HI BILLY MAYES HERE! Ever had to deal with tanks? Ran outta rocket's a long time ago? I'm here to show you the new shoulder fired rail gun! Fires any metal object you can find! Iron rebar? Why not! Toy car? Sure! Dead enemy sniper's barrel? go for it!
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19673903]stuff about 9mm +p+[/QUOTE]
curious rifleman here. any figures on how they compare for stopping power?
[QUOTE=mastermaul;19674985]What the Christ? Quit watching Futureweapons. There is jack shit wrong with the M2, in fact it's probably one of the greatest firearms ever built. The thing will be in use as long or longer than the B-52.[/QUOTE]
and the a-10, too.
[QUOTE=rossmum;19676533]curious rifleman here. any figures on how they compare for stopping power?
[/QUOTE]
124gr bullet at 1350-1400fps...
It's going to compare to a .357magnum with a similar bullet design. There's no magic tricks involved here.
Stopping power is a myth anyway. Hit or disrupt a vital organ and they're down, whether it's a 25acp or a .50bmg. Miss a vital organ, even with a .308 and they can still return fire and stay in the fight.
Pick a round you shoot comfortably that penetrates at LEAST 12 inches into 15% ballistic gel.
The best specs on the planet aren't going to matter if you riddle the perp's chest but fail to hit anything vital.
There is hydrostatic shock to take into account though... Which means you could shoot someone in the arm and cause brain hemorrhaging. .357sig is capable of this, and I'm sure 9mm+P+ is as well. Slower projectiles aren't.
That said, on any given day I'm either carrying .45gap or .357sig given all I've read and all the FBI reports I've studied. So take my advice or take it with a grain of salt and do your own research.
With speer gold dots, you can't go wrong in any loading.
I'm "a bit" late to the game, but I will say this and leave it at this:
If anyone ever threatens me, my loved ones, or my property, I will respond with lethal force if necessary. I wouldn't want to, but if the situation presents itself I wouldn't think twice. Doesn't matter if I have a gun, bat, fists, whatever. Given the opportunity though, I'd rather avoid the legal issues that result from shooting someone even when justified.
Finally took a picture of my glock, so here's some content for ya:
[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/k2ke9z.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=154360013[/url]
In case anyone wants it :v:
lol that's like a $10 gun show special red dot sight.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19692514]lol that's like a $10 gun show special red dot sight.[/QUOTE]
Haha I know, it works though.
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;19692622]Haha I know, it works though.[/QUOTE]
I was just bringing it up because it might make the auction less appealing to potential buyers.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19692659]I was just bringing it up because it might make the auction less appealing to potential buyers.[/QUOTE]
I don't really see how, the gun's worth a lot more than the starting bid, unless the sight devalues it or something. I could take another pic later without the sight I guess.
On the topic of the M2: In the same way th .45acp is good, but has room for improvements, so does the m2. Not that it has any problems as is; slight design changes, almost cosmetic, can make a big difference without sacrificing the basic operation. For example: An update of the M2 was just released, which features a better quick-change barrel system, which allows the operator to begin firing without having to sit and change anything on the new barrel. Saves time and lives; yet maintains the tried and true Browning system that is responsible for the legendary reliability. Who knows, maybe the M2 and .50 will be optimized with today's technologies, and the 1911 and .45 could be too.
[QUOTE=BurningPlayd0h;19692800]On the topic of the M2: In the same way th .45acp is good, but has room for improvements, so does the m2. Not that it has any problems as is; slight design changes, almost cosmetic, can make a big difference without sacrificing the basic operation. For example: An update of the M2 was just released, which features a better quick-change barrel system, which allows the operator to begin firing without having to sit and change anything on the new barrel. Saves time and lives; yet maintains the tried and true Browning system that is responsible for the legendary reliability. Who knows, maybe the M2 and .50 will be optimized with today's technologies, and the 1911 and .45 could be too.[/QUOTE]
The 1911 and .45acp already have been.
Look at para-ord 1911s and then look at the .45Super and .45SMC.
The problem is, people won't buy into the stuff and support progression.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19692963]The 1911 and .45acp already have been.
Look at para-ord 1911s and then look at the .45Super and .45SMC.
The problem is, people won't buy into the stuff and support progression.[/QUOTE]
Well, that's partly because of writers that either don't test it or get mad cause they think its an insult to the 1911.
[img]http://www.para-usa.com/new/images/product_photo/TX1445Sphoto.gif[/img]
[quote]Full Capacity
Product Code: TX1445S
Caliber: .45 ACP
Rounds: 14+1
Barrel: 5"
Weight: 40 oz.
Length: 8.5"
Height: 5.75"
Hammer: Spurless
Sights: Adjustable
Receiver: Stainless
Finish: Sterling
Magazine: PNM45
MSRP: $1,279.00[/quote]
Look at that, 14 rounds in a 1911, with second strike capability!
And the specs on the .45Super are as follows:
[quote]200gr 1,200 ft/s - 639 ft·lbf [/quote]
Run a heavier recoil spring and firing pin spring in that para, load it up with .45supers and you're on the cutting edge.
Don't .45s with double-stacked magazines have big, awkward grips though?
That and I wonder how easy to find the magazines for that thing are. Then again if you don't mind the 1,200$ price tag I doubt spare mags are out of your reach.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19693371]Don't .45s with double-stacked magazines have big, awkward grips though?
That and I wonder how easy to find the magazines for that thing are. Then again if you don't mind the 1,200$ price tag I doubt spare mags are out of your reach.[/QUOTE]
$1200 is around normal for a 1911 with any bells and whistles.
Yea, it'll have a bigger grip, not really as bad as a glock double stack 45 though.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19673903]You don't know anything about ballistics at all.
I suggest you get your info from some place other than the redneck hicks who propagate this bullshit.
[editline]08:56PM[/editline]
How many times must this be posted?
[img]http://www.johnwmyers.com/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
It's ballistic gel.
.45 ACP isn't used by major police departments outside of companions to primary weapons BECAUSE it doesn't penetrate. The 10mm auto and .40 S&W exist almost entirely because the FBI loved .45 ACP but wasn't pleased with its ability to penetrate cover. It lacks the ability to reliably penetrate even a car door and kill someone wearing heavy clothing. Likewise they don't use 9mm because it DOESN'T RELIABLY STOP DETERMINED ATTACKERS. IT'S THE FUCKING FBI, THEY HAVE DONE THEIR HOMEWORK.
.45 ACP is still preferred by virtually ever elite military force the United States has to offer. SWAT commonly uses .45 ACP as companion weapon calibers. The US border patrol uses the UMP .45. Ask any US marine who carried a 1911 and had to switch to the M9, he will tell you he wants the 1911 back. These groups are trained professionals and they overwhelmingly prefer the .45 ACP as a secondary. Police departments have been moving away from 9mm for years because it is a piece of shit round.
[editline]09:41PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19662075]
It's just that the .45acp in a 230gr/850fps loading is miles behind almost everything else available today, and takes up vastly more space requiring a bigger gun.
In todays world, we have 9mm +P+ that's coming extremely close to matching .357magnum ballistics. And you can easily get a gun to handle 17+ of them with less weight and bulk.
[/QUOTE]
But you don't WANT more fps. It is a heavy round that is already capable of reliably killing unarmored targets within 50 meters when fired from a pistol.
The recoil is soft for the round size and the cartridge needs no subsonic counterpart for suppressors. It also doesn't create this thunderous boom every time you fire it.
.45 ACP ISN'T MEANT TO BE .357. You don't WANT it to be that. It is an easily manufactured, cheap, reliable, well-tested, pistol round that serves a very specific purpose with such effectiveness that nobody has managed to successfully out it in a century.
[QUOTE=GunFox;19694689]It's ballistic gel.
.45 ACP isn't used by major police departments outside of companions to primary weapons BECAUSE it doesn't penetrate. The 10mm auto and .40 S&W exist almost entirely because the FBI loved .45 ACP but wasn't pleased with its ability to penetrate cover. It lacks the ability to reliably penetrate even a car door and kill someone wearing heavy clothing. Likewise they don't use 9mm because it DOESN'T RELIABLY STOP DETERMINED ATTACKERS. IT'S THE FUCKING FBI, THEY HAVE DONE THEIR HOMEWORK.
.45 ACP is still preferred by virtually ever elite military force the United States has to offer. SWAT commonly uses .45 ACP as companion weapon calibers. The US border patrol uses the UMP .45. Ask any US marine who carried a 1911 and had to switch to the M9, he will tell you he wants the 1911 back. These groups are trained professionals and they overwhelmingly prefer the .45 ACP as a secondary. Police departments have been moving away from 9mm for years because it is a piece of shit round.
[editline]09:41PM[/editline]
But you don't WANT more fps. It is a heavy round that is already capable of reliably killing unarmored targets within 50 meters when fired from a pistol.
The recoil is soft for the round size and the cartridge needs no subsonic counterpart for suppressors. It also doesn't create this thunderous boom every time you fire it.
.45 ACP ISN'T MEANT TO BE .357. You don't WANT it to be that. It is an easily manufactured, cheap, reliable, well-tested, pistol round that serves a very specific purpose with such effectiveness that nobody has managed to successfully out it in a century.[/QUOTE]
You really have a bad understanding of ballistics and the properties of different hollow points and their penetration characteristics.
That whole drivel about 9mm not stopping attackers is a pile of bullshit that still plagues the gun community even though its actual potential to stop with one shot is just as high as .45acp in 2010.
And you do actually want more FPS. Get a fast expanding lightweight .45acp and drive it extremely fast so that it can penetrate like a standard ball round, and you have the ultimate in stopping power.
As far as going inline with the FBI... Yep, I do! I also carry a sig in .357sig with speer gold dots. That's the choice of the US Secret Service. It's still a 9mm bullet at 1400fps. It doesn't matter what case it's on it'll perform the same. You're just a koolaid drinker who won't accept that there's no magic to all of this stuff and that the only things that matter is 1.) penetration, and 2.) shot placement.
I can pull up lots of bullshit if you want to read it:
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/sobwuo.jpg[/IMG]
In the end, almost any modern defensive round is going to work just as well as the next.
Hurf, I'm usually the first to pull up these tables and usually not the one drinking kool-aid, but it has to be said that field experience by professionals who are finding out first hand the effects of their rounds in [B]live situations[/B], not attempted replications, counts for more.
If stopping power is a myth, why is it the experience of US Army soldiers that 7.62x51mm has been far more reliable for putting an enemy out of the fight than 5.56x45 is? Shot placement has little to do with it in this case, as these soldiers now demanding the use of M14s are the same ones who were previously fielding M16A4s/M4s, if anything, their shot placement with the M16s or M4s would've been superior, especially considering the ability to fire follow up shots with greater accuracy.
This thread is really boring with all this bullshit about different calibers.
[QUOTE=professional;19696026]Hurf, I'm usually the first to pull up these tables and usually not the one drinking kool-aid, but it has to be said that field experience by professionals who are finding out first hand the effects of their rounds in [B]live situations[/B], not attempted replications, counts for more.
If stopping power is a myth, why is it the experience of US Army soldiers that 7.62x51mm has been far more reliable for putting an enemy out of the fight than 5.56x45 is? Shot placement has little to do with it in this case, as these soldiers now demanding the use of M14s are the same ones who were previously fielding M16A4s/M4s.[/QUOTE]
For the ranges a lot of soldiers are working with in the middle east, I don't blame them! But they bitch and moan about the M4s being heavy... Most of them would never hack humping around an M14 all day when their M4 is giving them a back ache.
Quick Question...
Anyone here have a S&W Sigma 40F by chance?
Was interrested in getting one since you can find one for $325-$350 at the gun shows.
Heard they were good, came in .45 .40S&W or 9MM and i like their looks
[IMG]http://www.sportsmk.co.uk/images/big/402.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Siminov;19697185]Quick Question...
Anyone here have a S&W Sigma 40F by chance?
Was interrested in getting one since you can find one for $325-$350 at the gun shows.
Heard they were good, came in .45 .40S&W or 9MM and i like their looks
[IMG][/IMG][/QUOTE]
Oh my God that's ugly...
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;19697399]Oh my God that's ugly...[/QUOTE]
The trigger makes me want to vomit.
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