[QUOTE=Bean-O;19842665]I don't think anyone has ever made one. Either way it wouldn't be as sexy as this:
[img]http://www.m1arifles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/jae-100-g2.png[/img]
Too bad the stock by itself costs almost as much as the gun that goes in it. So a Match Grade M1a+one of those Hubble space telescopes that people mount on them that cost more than the gun+200$ scope rings+that stock=a gun that can run over 5,000$.[/QUOTE]
those JAE-700 stocks are pretty slick too
granted the only people that can afford those are probably people who are really really into long range shooting (buying a single riced out rifle to compete seriously instead of having a big variety, etc)
[editline]10:06PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19839219].22LR isn't all that weak. You can get a 30 grain bullet at 1750fps with 1 loading.
That's pretty damned close to the 5.7x28mm.
In any case, .22lr is WAY more powerful than .25acp.
.22lr would be viable for self defense if the primers were more reliable.
My buckmark runs as well as any other semi-auto, on decent .22lr ammo it never jams or has any sort of hickup.[/QUOTE]
did you see/read about that new keltec .22 magnum automatic? Seems like a poorman's fiveseven but it has some major proportions issues (also has the problem of literally looking like 2 molded slabs of plastic that are bolted together)
[img]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pmr30_8297-tfb-tm.jpg[/img]
look at it, the thing is bolted together. It's such a cool concept but the execution seems really halfassed. The price-point is a good tradeoff, I guess.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19847608]
did you see/read about that new keltec .22 magnum automatic? Seems like a poorman's fiveseven but it has some major proportions issues (also has the problem of literally looking like 2 molded slabs of plastic that are bolted together)
look at it, the thing is bolted together. It's such a cool concept but the execution seems really halfassed. The price-point is a good tradeoff, I guess.[/QUOTE]
Well wouldn't say that bolts are that bad... if it allows the operator to change components more easily and you can clean the gun without a wrench it isn't that bad then. Let the reviews talk when they come out.
Looks quite good imho, I like the fiber-optic sights, picannity rail, and the huge capacity.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19847608]those JAE-700 stocks are pretty slick too
granted the only people that can afford those are probably people who are really really into long range shooting (buying a single riced out rifle to compete seriously instead of having a big variety, etc)
[editline]10:06PM[/editline]
did you see/read about that new keltec .22 magnum automatic? Seems like a poorman's fiveseven but it has some major proportions issues (also has the problem of literally looking like 2 molded slabs of plastic that are bolted together)
[img]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pmr30_8297-tfb-tm.jpg[/img]
look at it, the thing is bolted together. It's such a cool concept but the execution seems really halfassed. The price-point is a good tradeoff, I guess.[/QUOTE]
my god that's ugly, but strangely i want one just because i know Kel Tec makes reliable little guns
[QUOTE=AugustBurnsRed;19847852]my god that's ugly, but strangely i want one just because i know Kel Tec makes reliable little guns[/QUOTE]
Am I the only one who thinks it looks quite good?
[QUOTE=evilking1;19847867]Am I the only one who thinks it looks quite good?[/QUOTE]
No. I like it aswell :v:
[QUOTE=evilking1;19847867]Am I the only one who thinks it looks quite good?[/QUOTE]
I like the design of the slide, but I wouldn't buy one for any amount of money.
[QUOTE=AugustBurnsRed;19847852]my god that's ugly, but strangely i want one just because i know Kel Tec makes reliable little guns[/QUOTE]
Funny you say that because kel tec actually makes POS compact pistols. My kel tec p3at had a ftf almost every fucking shot so did my other models.
They've improved their stuff quite a bit, this is presuming you own their older stuff.
keltecs fucking suck they have a gun life of like 9000 rounds; note: gun life, not barrel life
also I don't see how you could rationalize praising a gun for its molded 2-piece frame; the gun is literally made using the same processes as cheap little dart guns and the two halves are BOLTED TOGETHER. saying that it's easier to swap components is bullshit because a small takedown pin/lever that removes the slide and barrel assembly is multiple times faster than having to unscrew multiple bolts
basically: good concept, bad execution, which is a shame because it's so, so close to being worth it
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19850291]keltecs fucking suck they have a gun life of like 9000 rounds; note: gun life, not barrel life
also I don't see how you could rationalize praising a gun for its molded 2-piece frame; the gun is literally made using the same processes as cheap little dart guns and the two halves are BOLTED TOGETHER. saying that it's easier to swap components is bullshit because a small takedown pin/lever that removes the slide and barrel assembly is multiple times faster than having to unscrew multiple bolts
basically: good concept, bad execution, which is a shame because it's so, so close to being worth it[/QUOTE]
Well, they're cheap as fuck and have a lifetime warranty. It's not really a major loss, assuming you have dough lying around.
[QUOTE=Vinze;19833382]Explosion might not be the best word to use, since the gun would break to pieces then, I used to think so myself, but my dad (Who's like... A cop.) mentioned that technically, it's not an explosion, you never want the gunpowder to project all of it's energy at the same time, since then you don't take the highest advantage of the power from the ignition, instead, the gunpowder just burns in a very high speed, too high for the human eye to comprehence. So basicly, the gunpowder burns, like rocket or jetfuel. I know it's a tiny, and problably useless fact, but I still feel like putting it out there.
But yeah, it basicly looks like an explosion, but the structure of it isn't the same.
Since... An explosion usually projects power and energy in an eliptic shape, the gunpowder simply projects it forward.
Anyways, awesome thread. Not a big fan of killing, but guns are still fun! :D[/QUOTE]
It's an explosive, I don't where you are pulling out of these definitions from, but i'm going to assume your anal cavity.
Pretty postive it's a secondary low explosive, I.E one that deflagerates at a slow rate, but an explosion none the less.
I also can't see how you say that it's "too fast for the human eye to comprehend", because you can see the flash..
[QUOTE=Vinze;19833382]Explosion might not be the best word to use, since the gun would break to pieces then, I used to think so myself, but my dad (Who's like... A cop.) mentioned that technically, it's not an explosion, you never want the gunpowder to project all of it's energy at the same time, since then you don't take the highest advantage of the power from the ignition, instead, the gunpowder just burns in a very high speed, too high for the human eye to comprehence. So basicly, the gunpowder burns, like rocket or jetfuel. I know it's a tiny, and problably useless fact, but I still feel like putting it out there.
But yeah, it basicly looks like an explosion, but the structure of it isn't the same.
Since... An explosion usually projects power and energy in an eliptic shape, the gunpowder simply projects it forward.
Anyways, awesome thread. Not a big fan of killing, but guns are still fun! :D[/QUOTE]
A controlled explosion you idiot. Not some random explosion.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19847608]
did you see/read about that new keltec .22 magnum automatic? Seems like a poorman's fiveseven but it has some major proportions issues (also has the problem of literally looking like 2 molded slabs of plastic that are bolted together)
[img]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pmr30_8297-tfb-tm.jpg[/img]
look at it, the thing is bolted together. It's such a cool concept but the execution seems really halfassed. The price-point is a good tradeoff, I guess.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, I want that bad.
It would be better than a five seven actually... Much deeper penetration, and you can buy ammunition for it anywhere.
I hope they make a 17HMR version.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19850291]keltecs fucking suck they have a gun life of like 9000 rounds; note: gun life, not barrel life
also I don't see how you could rationalize praising a gun for its molded 2-piece frame; the gun is literally made using the same processes as cheap little dart guns and the two halves are BOLTED TOGETHER. saying that it's easier to swap components is bullshit because a small takedown pin/lever that removes the slide and barrel assembly is multiple times faster than having to unscrew multiple bolts
basically: good concept, bad execution, which is a shame because it's so, so close to being worth it[/QUOTE]
Also, read:
[quote] Slide and barrel are 4140 steel, frame is 7075 aluminum. Grip, slide cover, trigger, mag release, and safety levers are glass reinforced Nylon (Zytel), much like other Kel-Tec Pistols. Magazine is Also Zytel and holds 30 rounds, with round count ports. Other features include: dual opposing extractors for reliability, heel magazine release to aid in magazine retention, dovetailed aluminum front sight, Picatinny accessory rail under the barrel, Urethane recoil buffer, captive coaxial recoil springs. The barrel is fluted for light weight and effective heat dissipation. PMR30 disassembles for cleaning by removal of a single pin.[/quote]
[url]http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/PMR30-handout-v3-31.pdf[/url]
Apparently it has a single pin removeable for cleaning also.
[QUOTE=Oecleus;19823272]Yea. I kinda figured that, I was wondering if it's the center of mass of the whole body or the torso or what.[/QUOTE]
For marksmen the center of mass is just below the sternum. It is the best mixture of chance to hit and lethality in a single shot.
For pistols it tends to simply be the chest. Unlike snipers, pistol users are going to shoot twice, if not three times at close range.
[editline]11:54AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19860460]
It would be better than a five seven actually... Much deeper penetration, and you can buy ammunition for it anywhere.
[/QUOTE]
5.7 tumbles causing more soft tissue damage like a rifle round. .22 and .17 both simply would go straight through.
Granted all three are pathetic.
[QUOTE=GunFox;19860714]
5.7 tumbles causing more soft tissue damage like a rifle round. .22 and .17 both simply would go straight through.
Granted all three are pathetic.[/QUOTE]
Can't really get any factory civilian loads that tumble now, they stopped selling the white box SS195LF.
They watered it down to the point that it only penetrates 7 inches now. So it's worthless.
SS197 (blue tip) that's the most common is just a rapid expansion varmint bullet that's practically harmless to people.
Deep penetration (straight through) is far more lethal than shallow penetration. That 22 magnum with 30 rounds on tap is certainly a scary gun, I'd imagine with proper loadings it'd really perform well against level II armor.
So what you're essentially saying in other words is that if you want a handgun that penetrates like hell get a Tokarev?
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19861209]So what you're essentially saying in other words is that if you want a handgun that penetrates like hell get a Tokarev?[/QUOTE]
If you're happy with extremely limited capacity.
I'll take 30 over 8, thanks. Tokarev has some impressive terminal performance though, it makes one seriously nasty wound channel, not really comparable to 5.7 or 22magnum.
I would rather have this keltec than my five seven. Actually, I'll probably end up selling my five seven now if that PMR30 ends up being reliable.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19861221]If you're happy with extremely limited capacity.
I'll take 30 over 8, thanks. Tokarev has some impressive terminal performance though, it makes one seriously nasty wound channel, not really comparable to 5.7 or 22magnum.
I would rather have this keltec than my five seven. Actually, I'll probably end up selling my five seven now if that PMR30 ends up being reliable.[/QUOTE]
Well actually I do have my heart set on a Tokarev partially because they're so cheap and partially because the ballistics are so different from all the other strait-cased handgun calibers. Box-O-Truth had a field day with 7.62x25mm handguns. They found for instance that a PASGT helmet would stop every handgun caliber they could toss at it except for the Toke. It only barely penetrated, but still pretty interesting results.
That and the ammo is less than 100 bucks for 2250+ rounds.
I don't know about using it for self defense. I'd probably buy something else for that purpose.
[QUOTE=GunFox;19860714]
For pistols it tends to simply be the chest. Unlike snipers, pistol users are going to shoot twice, if not three times at close range.
[/QUOTE]
You keep pulling that trigger until the threat is stopped.
There's no pre-set number of times to shoot.
[editline]12:48PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19861358]Well actually I do have my heart set on a Tokarev partially because they're so cheap and partially because the ballistics are so different from all the other strait-cased handgun calibers. Box-O-Truth had a field day with 7.62x25mm handguns. They found for instance that a PASGT helmet would stop every handgun caliber they could toss at it except for the Toke. It only barely penetrated, but still pretty interesting results.
That and the ammo is less than 100 bucks for 2250+ rounds.
I don't know about using it for self defense. I'd probably buy something else for that purpose.[/QUOTE]
It'd be great for defense, in my opinion.
Look up some ballistic gel tests, I leave for work in 5 minutes and don't have time. Site name is brass fetcher though.
You live in cali so you're stuck with limited capacity, a tokarev would be perfect.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19861374]You keep pulling that trigger until the threat is stopped.
There's no pre-set number of times to shoot.
[editline]12:48PM[/editline]
It'd be great for defense, in my opinion.
Look up some ballistic gel tests, I leave for work in 5 minutes and don't have time. Site name is brass fetcher though.
You live in cali so you're stuck with limited capacity, a tokarev would be perfect.[/QUOTE]
When I was thinking of a defensive handgun I was thinking more along the lines of a .45 ACP gun since I'm limited to 10 rounds. Ruger makes the P90 with an 8 round capacity which is 440$ new, reportedly very reliable and has exceptional accuracy for a handgun in it's price range. That and there are affordable, reliable 10 round aftermarket magazines.
See I was thinking of that for a defensive handgun with the Tokarev serving the purpose of a cheap plinker. But I will certainly look into the ballistic properties of 7.62x25mm now that you mention it.
ZOMG BIG TOYS!!!!!!
I love my Lee Enfeild Mk. II
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19847608]did you see/read about that new keltec .22 magnum automatic? Seems like a poorman's fiveseven but it has some major proportions issues (also has the problem of literally looking like 2 molded slabs of plastic that are bolted together)
[img]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pmr30_8297-tfb-tm.jpg[/img]
look at it, the thing is bolted together. It's such a cool concept but the execution seems really halfassed. The price-point is a good tradeoff, I guess.[/QUOTE]
:gizz:
Here's another picture:
[img]http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SHOT2010_pmr30_small.jpg[/img]
[editline]02:38PM[/editline]
Also, I heard they were developing a .22LR version.
[editline]02:54PM[/editline]
[url]http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/PMR30-handout-v3-31.pdf[/url]
Called my gun store to pre-order a PMR30 but they don't even want to attempt it yet they said....
Blah.
It's probably going to end up outlawed before it's even widely available.
Anti-Gun groups are going to shit themselves.
[editline]06:17PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19861506]When I was thinking of a defensive handgun I was thinking more along the lines of a .45 ACP gun since I'm limited to 10 rounds. Ruger makes the P90 with an 8 round capacity which is 440$ new, reportedly very reliable and has exceptional accuracy for a handgun in it's price range. That and there are affordable, reliable 10 round aftermarket magazines.
See I was thinking of that for a defensive handgun with the Tokarev serving the purpose of a cheap plinker. But I will certainly look into the ballistic properties of 7.62x25mm now that you mention it.[/QUOTE]
The glock I just bought is perfect for a defensive handgun in states with limited capacity...
10 rounds of .45gap. It's currently a hell of a lot easier to get .45gap than .45acp as well.
Price difference is really just pennies in the big picture.
7.62x25mm ballistic gel tests:
[img]http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/762x25mmSB.JPG[/img]
Single shot was fired to the center of the block from a distance of 6 feet. Bullet impacted the block at 1510 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" of ballistic gelatin, 10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin), and 1.5" of loose-packed 'play sand'.
if the frame is an alloy then why is it in 2 pieces? Why not make it from a single piece like all other pistols? why bolt it together? it all just boggles the mind; also I still think that it's at the very least overmolded in some sort of pastic, because that has way too much of a plastic look to it
.22 magnum sucks out of pistols too, it loses energy really really fast and there's often fireballs thanks to unburnt powder. I still think the idea of it is neat though.
[editline]11:22PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19866510]
[B]It's currently a hell of a lot easier to get .45gap than .45acp as well.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
i don't believe you
post a deal that is less than .31 cents per round and I might
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19867134]
i don't believe you
post a deal that is less than .31 cents per round and I might[/QUOTE]
They have boxes of it for 20$ per 50 rounds which is pretty close. About the going rate for any midrange quality handgun caliber these days. But I think Dr. Mort was referring to how often .45GAP is in stock rather than the price. Because .45 ACP handguns are far more popular there is a greater demand for their ammunition and therefore supplies of it become depleted faster.
Thus sometimes it can be hard to come by. Whereas .45 GAP is a niche caliber that doesn't have the same market penetration and therefore it doesn't sell out as fast. It still isn't made in the same quantity as the more popular stuff which is why I wouldn't invest in a gun in any out of the way caliber. But that's just me.
Pistols aren't or shouldn't be concentrated on the size of the round.
More of the capacity of the magazine. For instance: My Glock 19 9mm holds 15+1, a .45ACP of that holds 10+1. If you shoot someone with 9mm they will go down no matter where you hit them, this is why there is really no point in having a bigger round.
[editline]12:10AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19866510]Called my gun store to pre-order a PMR30 but they don't even want to attempt it yet they said....
Blah.
It's probably going to end up outlawed before it's even widely available.
Anti-Gun groups are going to shit themselves.
[editline]06:17PM[/editline]
The glock I just bought is perfect for a defensive handgun in states with limited capacity...
10 rounds of .45gap. It's currently a hell of a lot easier to get .45gap than .45acp as well.
Price difference is really just pennies in the big picture.
7.62x25mm ballistic gel tests:
[img]http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/762x25mmSB.JPG[/img]
Single shot was fired to the center of the block from a distance of 6 feet. Bullet impacted the block at 1510 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" of ballistic gelatin, 10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin), and 1.5" of loose-packed 'play sand'.[/QUOTE]
Guns like that will never be illegalized. There is honestly no point to do so in the United States when it is already legal for us to buy .50AE Desert Eagles and .44 Magnums with no certain licenses.\
[b] Missread. Its automatic [/b] Nevermind
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19867134]
i don't believe you
post a deal that is less than .31 cents per round and I might[/QUOTE]
[url]http://georgia-arms.com/45gap185grfullmetaljacket50pk.aspx[/url]
Close enough.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19867399].45 GAP is a niche caliber[/QUOTE]
Bull fucking shit... It's as much as a niche caliber as .40S&W is when compared to 10mm.
Just because it doesn't have a massive following doesn't mean it isn't a good general service handgun round.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;19868722][URL]http://georgia-arms.com/45gap185grfullmetaljacket50pk.aspx[/URL]
Close enough.[/QUOTE]
Holy cow the ammo on that site is cheap.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;19869244]Holy cow the ammo on that site is cheap.[/QUOTE]
I know.
I got 300 rounds of .45gap and 300 rounds of .357sig.
[editline]08:09PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mikhail;19868183]
Guns like that will never be illegalized. There is honestly no point to do so in the United States when it is already legal for us to buy .50AE Desert Eagles and .44 Magnums with no certain licenses.\
[/QUOTE]
50AE and 44magnum don't punch through body armor.
A concealable handgun with a 30 round magazine and armor penetrating capabilities is seriously a scary thing. That's why you can only get neutered ammo for the 5.7x28mm.
This gun by keltec is absolutely brilliant and will serve a lot of roles in both personal defense, sporting, and hunting. Also, some SHTF situations...
[editline]08:16PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;19867134]if the frame is an alloy then why is it in 2 pieces? Why not make it from a single piece like all other pistols? why bolt it together? it all just boggles the mind; also I still think that it's at the very least overmolded in some sort of pastic, because that has way too much of a plastic look to it
[/QUOTE]
My five seven has no exposed metal anywhere on the gun. Who cares what you think about the looks of a gun or how you think it's built? I'm sure they did their home work on it and came up with a design that is functional. They sure as hell didn't design it to look good.
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