Man attacked for peacefully holding up a sign at Antifa protest [London] - General

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51885785]:what: If you do something, and you know it will have racist results you are absolutely a racist. Before you even say it, he absolutely knew it would have happened. He was there for aftermath of 9/11, and saw how paranoia against Muslims grow so strong that people were attacking and harassing people they merely assumed (and often weren't) were Muslim. He knew his supporters were violent, he offered to pay their legal expenses ffs. Had he a nonracist bone in his body he would have retracted his blanket instigation against Muslims and Mexicans, canceled the wall and apologized.[/QUOTE] What if I told you trump is just an idiot that genuinely thinks that this is a problem that needs to be addressed and he has no proper concept of the moral dimensions of his ability to inflict rhetoric and emotions on a mass population. The supporting being rough against intruders at rallies I disagree with, but it isn't inherently racial. It was the closest you got to an argument for his fascism though, and, accordingly, I did denounce it, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it is evidence that he is this moral monster you are painting him to be rather than the absolute clown I take him to be. Also, he has done that in an interview, but what you seem to want is a public service announcement not to be racist.

[QUOTE=Judas;51885340]"I hate this people who accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a fascist, it makes me want to be a fascist"[/QUOTE] First of all, fixed that for you. It should be "I hate it when people accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a fascist, it makes me stop caring whether or not I'm being called a fascist." Second of all, you, of all people here, have no ground to stand on to call people out on hypocrisy. You think punching nazis is a legitimate way to oppose them. You want to use violence against your political opponents. And you can't weasel out of that by calling nazis/facists something more than a political view. They are not in power, they are not doing anything but spreading their ideology. You want to use violence against people for the crime of their thoughts. Third, if you call people fascists thousand times then they might actually stop fucking caring that they are being called that and side with actual fascists on something. Because what's the point of avoiding association with fascists if you're going to be called a fascist either way? If you want example of this look no further than Trump. The words racist, sexist, homophobic and islamophobic were used so much in the last few years that when a presidential candidate who could legitimately be called some if not all of those things came up, half of the US did not care for those labels anymore and they sided with him. So yeah keep calling everyone a nazi and keep legitimizing violence as political opposition and see how that's going to work out for you. Now sit in the fucking corner.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqytjlHNIM[/media] This, i feel, its fitting for the topic at hand. [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Judas;51885340]"I hate this people who accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a fascist, it makes me want to be a fascist"[/QUOTE] Oh hello Judas. Is physically assaulting people who arent breaking any laws still okay and are you still calling people who disagree with breaking laws to fuck up people you disagree with no matter how awful their opinions "Nazi Sympathizers"?

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51885326]No they won't. Bad ideas get passed all the time. What reality do you live in? The USA just recently voted a President who wants to build a fucking wall on the southern border. There are people who shit on Climate Change and have actual power in the Government. Nobody wants to give Neo Nazi's a platform for obvious fucking reasons. When you start trying to defend them because of there so called free speech you're exhibiting you're pseudo intellectualism and how cool you must be to defend Nazis spreading what is basically hate speech. And people always try and argue this shit. Like how fucking socially inept do you have to be. No matter how many dumb George Carlin skits anyone here or online watches you aren't going to fool society into being ok with the proliferation of NeoNazi shit under the guise of free speech.[/QUOTE] There's absolutely nothing pseudo-intellectual about wanting free speech for everyone. Advocating free speech does not equate to defending Nazi ideology, nor does it "legitimize" it. Here in America, free speech isn't a "guise" to be used, it's literally a right. Therefore, it doesn't matter what reason it's used for -- and that's the point. If we start suppressing certain groups of people's speech because we don't want to "legitimize" them, then we're gonna give them a damn good [B]legitimate[/B] reason to be fucking pissed off.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ55KyNrO6A]"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."[/url] is a good line concerning antifas, how people still support them amazes me.

[QUOTE=srobins;51885133]It's genuinely alarming the direction that these social movements are moving in. Empty headed people chanting meaningless catch phrases in the name of fighting "fascism", an idea that most of them probably couldn't accurately define if asked. This feels like an excerpt from a movie in a not-so-distant future, not a real event taking place in a civilized country.[/QUOTE] The biggest irony is that they're the fascists here. Fascism basically boils down to "If you're not with us, you're against us", which they show to the guy pretty perfectly (even if he doesn't even try to oppose them?)

antifa are fucking scum and for some reason it is socially acceptable to support them in this country at least it used to be idk now

This guy did the equivalent of standing with an "All Lives Matter" sign in the middle of "Black Lives Matter" demonstration.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;51885257]I feel that is an unfair comparison. Technology has changed. Back then there was no ability for the rest of the world to instantly see what someone says and collectively shit on it. The trouble is people are now overusing that ability and making this sort of thing meaningless. If a real racist party rose under actual racist pretenses, in the west, then it would get shut down quicker than you can say "Who's streets?". Every person should be allowed a platform, especially if they managed to secure it themselves with the organizer. [B]Bad ideas will come up and be laughed down, good ideas won't.[/B] [/QUOTE] *insert picture of Donald Trump here*

i think that reacting to fascism and nazism with fear and anger only serves to strengthen them. those ideologies thrive on fear and anger. what really hurts them is ridicule and humor. fear and anger shows the ideology demands a certain form of reverence, which empowers those who follow it. making fun of it, showing the world how ridiculous their beliefs are, is far more difficult to combat. it disarms them, they can't turn it into a positive, it doesn't vindicate them in their own minds. if they see a crowd of people getting violent and breaking shit because of them, it makes them feel even more righteous and can stir up sympathetic feelings in others. getting riled up and violent is a less tactically sound move than ridiculing

[QUOTE=so;51885250]And in a democracy if these ideas spread does that make them legitimate?[/QUOTE] In a democracy, the majority does what the majority wants. The ideas are legitimate if everyone recognizes it as something they support/agree on. [B]Legitimate != morally right or justified.[/B]

I really hate listening to how they retort, most of it is empty-minded chanting... Defending your opinions and attempting to civilly talk about theirs; [B]"Shut up you're a Nazi. Fucking scum, I don't care. Fuck off, get off the street."[/B] All the while groups swarm him and attempt to tear up his sign, which is technically his property. Many people will argue that "He was asking for it, he came to an ANTIFA group with that sign." However that still doesn't justify how pathetically mob-like they acted to his presence, like a bunch of cry baby children getting upset and having to resort to acts of aggression. Verbally and physically.

"We don't discuss things with nazis" and a few seconds later "nazi scum, get off our streets!". It's obvious that these people aren't interested in swaying actual nazis or facists away from their despicable ideology, but rather instil hate in the minds of ordinary people and instigate violence. In other words, what AntiFa is doing here is pure hate speech. Now if you subscribe to the belief that not all opinions should be given a voice on the basis of it being hate speech, then AntiFa absolutely shouldn't be allowed to protest themselves which makes them hypocrites. You can discuss whether everyone should be given a voice all you like (I believe it's an important discussion to have) but there is no way around that what AntiFa is doing here is stupid and wrong.

Are fascists a problem? Possibly. Is it justifiable to hate fascists so much that you start using violence against people you don't like? I think not. This topic always plays out the same. "Hey this type of violence and intolerance is not okay" "Yes it is because nazis are worse, and if you disagree with our methods you are also a nazi"

God there's nothing worse than a crowd

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51886764]God there's nothing worse than a crowd[/QUOTE] Hooray for mob mentality

There's a petition against Antifa, perhaps worth signing: [url]https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-declare-antifa-a-terrorist-organization[/url]

The world of Star Trek had big social collapse before turning into the utopia that is shown. Seems Star Trek seems so right about many things.

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51887126]The world of Star Trek had big social collapse before turning into the utopia that is shown. Seems Star Trek seems so right about many things.[/QUOTE] Though DS9 is far more realistic on how things would actually be. I love TNG but it was going for full utopia on resources, relationships, and goals/outcomes alot of the time.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;51885187]AntiFa is the worst, literally the very thing they're against[/QUOTE] That's just as an inane point as the antifas make, fascism is more than just the state establishing a strong moral authority [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] Anyway, the biggest problem with antifa is they're way too fast and loose with the terms fascist and nazi, and as a result end up attacking and suppressing those who aren't those things

[QUOTE=Primigenes (Nazi edited to Jew);51885326]Nobody wants to give Jew's a platform for obvious fucking reasons. When you start trying to defend them because of there so called free speech you're exhibiting you're pseudo intellectualism and how cool you must be to defend Jews spreading what is basically hate speech. And people always try and argue this shit. Like how fucking socially inept do you have to be. No matter how many dumb Jew speakers anyone here or online watches you aren't going to fool society into being ok with the proliferation of Jew shit under the guise of free speech.[/QUOTE] Woah. I think an art-gallery promoting neo-nazi speakers is in pretty poor taste. But having an ideology of "If you are X you should shut the fuck up" doesn't lead to anything positive; The people who are X have more reason to feel divided and are less likely to change. And the people against X may just end up being what they wanted to prevent. On another topic; If we're talking about the actual rise of Nazism in post-WW1 Germany it stemmed from a disenfranchised people being taken advantage of by a political group that gained power by appealing to one majority demographic and created essentially an us VS them idealogy, I mean 30s/40s German Nazism was literally Aryan Nazi Germans deserve a right to; work, own land, hold positions of power over everyone else deemed lower than them in the "racial hierarchy". and harking back to my previous point telling people that believe certain things to just shut the fuck up rather than actually talking to them only leads to furthering the us VS them mentality. Even if you don't end up looking like the other side of the Nazi coin (excuse the shit analogy) you still inadvertently give Nazi's passion for their cause; you can't kill an ideology by suppressing it with force.

[QUOTE=Judas;51885340]"I hate this people who accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a fascist, it makes me want to be a fascist"[/QUOTE] What's with the hypocrisy man? And putting words in the mouth of other people? That is disgusting. You love to preach to not judge any person by the people they belong to, but when this people is not agreeing with your views it is suddenly okay? Who is dictating that your moral compass is the only right one? You know who else thought like that? Come on, we all are just waiting for your answer.

[QUOTE=Slim Charles;51887297]Woah. I think an art-gallery promoting neo-nazi speakers is in pretty poor taste. But having an ideology of "If you are X you should shut the fuck up" doesn't lead to anything positive; The people who are X have more reason to feel divided and are less likely to change. And the people against X may just end up being what they wanted to prevent. On another topic; If we're talking about the actual rise of Nazism in post-WW1 Germany it stemmed from a disenfranchised people being taken advantage of by a political group that gained power by appealing to one majority demographic and created essentially an us VS them idealogy, I mean 30s/40s German Nazism was literally Aryan Nazi Germans deserve a right to; work, own land, hold positions of power over everyone else deemed lower than them in the "racial hierarchy". and harking back to my previous point telling people that believe certain things to just shut the fuck up rather than actually talking to them only leads to furthering the us VS them mentality. Even if you don't end up looking like the other side of the Nazi coin (excuse the shit analogy) you still inadvertently give Nazi's passion for their cause; you can't kill an ideology by suppressing it with force.[/QUOTE] This whole "Nazi edited to Jew" thing seems like an intellectually dishonest false equivalence tbh. How is an ethnic/religious group that is p much completely harmless in any way similar to an ideology that literally advocates for genocide? Not all speech in the US is or should be protected. Naziism (and fascism) should be classified as hate speech as their ideology is inherently tied to discrimination.

I don't know what a "Intellectually dishonest false equivalence" is but yeah I agree Nazism and Judaism are not the same thing. I just think having an ideology that other opposing ideologies should shut the fuck up doesn't achieve anything, it doesn't even achieve the end goal of having them actually shut the fuck up because they get more passionate and rowdy. And my little edit isn't supposed to be my main point I was just poking a bit of fun at that having that rhetoric can be switched around pretty easily, might of been a low blow but I don't think that guy is a Nazi or anything. What I wrote below it is my point and I stand by what I said.

[QUOTE=Slim Charles;51887725]I don't know what a "Intellectually dishonest false equivalence" is but yeah I agree Nazism and Judaism are not the same thing. I just think having an ideology that other opposing ideologies should shut the fuck up doesn't achieve anything, it doesn't even achieve the end goal of having them actually shut the fuck up because they get more passionate and rowdy. And my little edit isn't supposed to be my main point I was just poking a bit of fun at that having that rhetoric can be switched around pretty easily, might of been a low blow but I don't think that guy is a Nazi or anything. What I wrote below it is my point and I stand by what I said.[/QUOTE] Gotcha. I was just trying to say that subbing out "Nazi" for "Jew" in order to draw attention to his intolerance wasn't a good argument to make as the two aren't really comparable on any basis other than that they're both "things".