[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46037159]as much as I hate the AEI, and as much bullshit as "Prager "University"" has put out, that doesn't automatically invalidate everything they say.
What I'm saying is, if Hitler said the sky was blue it wouldn't turn green just because he's an asshole.[/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't instantly invalidate it. But it means that you have to really look at what they are trying the accomplish with this video.
A couple of examples:
The title of the video "Are video games sexist" is an all or nothing sensationalist way to put the issue. Most of the people who are doing these critiques aren't saying "video games are sexist" as a blanket term but rather are saying that there is an overuse of certain ideas that can be seen as sexist. The ideas themselves (such as the damsel in distress) aren't inherently an issue, but rather their overuse is. The title though implies that the video games themselves are sexist.
The whole section on video game violence was just a blatant pander to the audience. Let me remind you of a past issue in order to make my argument seem more reasonable.
This video, even without the AEI is pretty shit, I can list more examples of why this video is pretty shit if you want.
With the AEI part it feels like a sort of recruitment video.
Like this video feels like a draw in video for 20 something male adults into conservative ideology, since in this case some conservative ideas overlap with this issue. Get people to watch a few more videos on their youtube to pull them in.
The AEI's primary function is to push conservative and corporate agendas, its how they get their funding. So that really should be kept in mind when you notice that this video is an AEI video.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46037175]only when the source in question can be used as a lazy, immediate rebuttal to anything along with "it's just X, who cares"
seriously guys. i expected better from you[/QUOTE]
what exactly is the issue in using something as a rebuttal if it's right
Seriously, if this was some of their shit about how global warming is a hoax then I'd be calling them out. But as far as I'm aware, every claim made in the specific video that is the topic of discussion is right, so why the fuck not refer to it?
Conservatism is not a memetic disease that corrodes any truthful statement and makes it false. It wouldn't matter if this video was produced by the ACLU or Alex fucking Jones, if it's right it's right.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46037223]what exactly is the issue in using something as a rebuttal if it's right
Seriously, if this was some of their shit about how global warming is a hoax then I'd be calling them out. But as far as I'm aware, every claim made in the specific video that is the topic of discussion is right, so why the fuck not refer to it?
Conservatism is not a memetic disease that corrodes any truthful statement and makes it false. It wouldn't matter if this video was produced by the ACLU or Alex fucking Jones, if it's right it's right.[/QUOTE]
did you just refer to an opinionated video as being like, objectively right
if "who cares it's videogames" is a valid rebuttal, then i guess my "i care. that's it. i'm done. i'm right" is just as good.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037231]tbh games need to get writing better than airport novels before we can move on to more advanced discussions
some games have good writing but its an exception, not a rule[/QUOTE]
This. I'm not sure if it's just with me, but the only situation where a character ends up being objectified to me is when their writing is absolute shit. I don't mean in a sexual way either, I just see them as two dimensional or extremely forced.
I.E. most "diverse" bioware characters that just end up being caricatures
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46037223]what exactly is the issue in using something as a rebuttal if it's right
[/QUOTE]
It isn't right, it is and always has been a lazy and poor way to avoid meaningful discussion. You're pretty deeply rooted into your sense of right as if it's objective truth.
I have to say, this video really does strike a nasty cord with me.
It uses all of the worst arguments which can be made for the side of the issue that it supports, and really you should be wary of any video wherein the speaker goes out of their way to [b]explicitly compliment your demographic[/b].
I don't really agree with what's to be said here. I do think that there are some things about videogames which unfairly represent women. I think that a lot of people who argue on the internet for better representation of women in videogames utterly suck at it, and I honestly do think that it's their fault that there's now such a backlash against the concept, but are we really going to start praising a fox-news level source because it makes us feel good? These are literally people that shore up causes like climate change denial. They've only made this video because they feel like they've got an opportunity to score points now that the so many gamers have been alienated by feminists.
[QUOTE=Mr.95;46037244]This. I'm not sure if it's just with me, but the only situation where a character ends up being objectified to me is when their writing is absolute shit. I don't mean in a sexual way either, I just see them as two dimensional or extremely forced.
I.E. most "diverse" bioware characters that just end up being caricatures[/QUOTE]
i acknowledge and appreciate bioware for trying to have diverse characters in their games, but i'm conflicted because they got inanimate objects around the office to write them.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;46037214]Name me one other medium on the scale of Videogames with the level of shitty writing, shallow and boring characters, and a blatant emphasis on pandering to the overwhelmingly male demographic of hardcore enthusiasts that people refuse to take a look at because it doesn't affect them.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418279/]Film[/url]
[QUOTE=Valnar;46037221]No, it doesn't instantly invalidate it. But it means that you have to really look at what they are trying the accomplish with this video.
A couple of examples:
The title of the video "Are video games sexist" is an all or nothing sensationalist way to put the issue. Most of the people who are doing these critiques aren't saying "video games are sexist" as a blanket term but rather are saying that there is an overuse of certain ideas that can be seen as sexist. The ideas themselves (such as the damsel in distress) aren't inherently an issue, but rather their overuse is. The title though implies that the video games themselves are sexist.
The whole section on video game violence was just a blatant pander to the audience. Let me remind you of a past issue in order to make my argument seem more reasonable.
There are a lot of issue with this video and it really feels like a recruitment video.
Like this video feels like a draw in video for 20 something male adults into conservative ideology, since in this case some conservative ideas overlap with this issue. Get people to watch a few more videos on their youtube to pull them in.
The AEI's primary function is to push conservative and corporate agendas, its how they get their funding. So that really should be kept in mind when you notice that this video is an AEI video.[/QUOTE]
I think the comparison between the "videogames make people violent" line and the "videogames make people sexist" line is perfectly justified. TB has made it multiple times, and his politics are a far cry from the AEI. Hell, I've made that point and the AEI disgusts me.
I can't really speak to what you felt. I didn't particularly feel that way. I mean, this Texas sovereignty bumper sticker just congealed from the red white and blue puss and bile which my chest has been weeping ever since I watched the video, so who knows. Maybe you're right.
Personally, I don't care if it was a recruitment tool for ISIS. If it's correct, then it's correct. I don't see why anything else would be particularly important in a discussion about the matters raised.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46037255]i acknowledge and appreciate bioware for trying to have diverse characters in their games, but i'm conflicted because they got inanimate objects around the office to write them.[/QUOTE]
It's their main flaw, I was somewhat thinking the latest dragon age might be an improvement, but after seeing the quotes and character design I've given up on them.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037268]summer blockbusters are always going to have shit writing generally
in videogames, you seldom see a decently written game anywhere[/QUOTE]
[url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/207610/]Really?[/url] You're generalizing a whole medium.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46037238]did you just refer to an opinionated video as being like, objectively right
if "who cares it's videogames" is a valid rebuttal, then i guess my "i care. that's it. i'm done. i'm right" is just as good.[/QUOTE]
well i guess it's alright if you act identically to the the people you chastise as long as you have an excuse
man i wonder why people don't want to talk about the things you want to talk about, it must be their irrational hatred of discussion
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46037272][url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/207610/]Really?[/url] You're generalizing a whole medium.[/QUOTE]
Not all games have telltale level writing, and not all of them are highly popular
though it's definitely a step forward with how popular and successful that's become
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46037263]Personally, I don't care if it was a recruitment tool for ISIS. If it's correct, then it's correct. I don't see why anything else would be particularly important in a discussion about the matters raised.[/QUOTE]
Dude, nobody can really take your posts seriously when you keep saying that this video is simply "correct."
"Videogames aren't sexist" isn't on the same level as "birds fly" or "obama is the president"
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037268]summer blockbusters are always going to have shit writing generally
in videogames, you seldom see a decently written game anywhere[/QUOTE]
Yep. There's a general consensus on their lack of quality and their issues from more well versed and seasoned enthusiasts of film, while there's no such consensus in the video game industry.
For all of the flaws of film, none of them are nearly as widespread as the unprofessional-ism and general poor state of video games.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037282]even if walking deads writing was good (its not really, its adequate as hell), and that season 2's writing is almost straight bad (all of the characters are nothing, the only 'character' we knew from s1 is a cardboard cutout with 1 emotion, people are really fucking stupid in both games, etc)
seldom is the keyword here, some games are well written, but the vast majority arent[/QUOTE]
Some movies are well written, but the vast majority aren't
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46037067]they're "just" games, right? then i guess we really shouldn't be able to talk about whether they're art, beneficial to development, a good coping tool, etc...
the "who cares it's just X!" "argument" is the worst kind of mindset to have, because if people don't give a shit about issues that games have, they'll stagnate. talking about sexism is JUST as important as talking about them having more realistic characters, stories, and and worlds.
now that i think about it, the "who cares!!!" mindset is especially bad in the videogame industry because you can easily avoid discussions you don't care about. there, you can keep playing your just games games and i can do that and talk about them.
[editline]20th September 2014[/editline]
like, i don't get this.
if some of you guys [I]legitimately[/I] thought that games were just for playing [I]and nothing else[/I], why even bother entering these threads, or watching hilarious /v/ videos about game sexism?
i talk about these issues on forums and twitter and shit not because i like arguing (believe it or not), i do it because in addition to playing games, i like talking about how they as a whole can improve, how they can become more technologically advanced, how the games market can improve, or how the stories can get bigger and better. all of this shit's equally important imo. dumb as heck to not talk about sexism in games because of kickstarter lady's videos or some tumblr users you saw screencapped on reddit or something.[/QUOTE]
do you not have friends who are girls or are you just friends with crazy, oppressed wymins?
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46037259][url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418279/]Film[/url][/QUOTE]
Only linking one movie? The entire [url=http://www.imdb.com/genre/action/?ref_=gnr_mn_ac_mp]Genre[/url] is filled with trash.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037268]summer blockbusters are always going to have shit writing generally
in videogames, you seldom see a decently written game anywhere[/QUOTE]
There's plenty, but I think that's besides the point. The reason action movies don't give a shit about good writing so much is that that isn't the main appeal of them, the action is. A lot of games are the same where the gameplay is the main draw rather than reading a story to the players.
If you're faulting it for a factor that wasn't even intended as a main attraction, I think you might not be the target audience.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;46037247]It isn't right, it is and always has been a lazy and poor way to avoid meaningful discussion. You're pretty deeply rooted into your sense of right as if it's objective truth.[/QUOTE]
you know I thought it made a lot of statements of fact that could easily be independently verified
[url]https://medium.com/@cainejw/the-factual-feminist-a-factcheck-f5ae584f56da[/url]
like that
Maybe this person is also wrong, but as far as I'm aware they aren't.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46037274]well i guess it's alright if you act identically to the the people you chastise as long as you have an excuse
man i wonder why people don't want to talk about the things you want to talk about, it must be their irrational hatred of discussion[/QUOTE]
i'll gladly accept this criticism when i'm the one who enters a thread going "who cares, its just games"
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46037283]Dude, nobody can really take your posts seriously when you keep saying that this video is simply "correct."
"Videogames aren't sexist" isn't on the same level as "birds fly" or "obama is the president"[/QUOTE]
do you really think I'm referring to the specific title of the video and not it's content, for fuck's sake
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037292]are you seriously trying to argue that videogames are well written lol[/QUOTE]
I'm arguing that video games aren't the only medium plagued with "level of shitty writing, shallow and boring characters, and a blatant emphasis on pandering to the overwhelmingly male demographic of hardcore enthusiasts that people refuse to take a look at because it doesn't affect them."
Should I bring up books and Twilight?
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46037297]i'll gladly accept this criticism when i'm the one who enters a thread going "who cares, its just games"[/QUOTE]
I see we're operating by the famed and illustrious "but he started it" rules of debate.
fuck me at least [I]pretend[/I] you have some inkling of integrity
I think part of the issue with writing in games is that we just outright haven't figured out how to best do it, to be honest.
We've been able to put words into games for, what, 20-25 years now? It's a pretty young medium. Even weirder, some of the games which provide what many people seem to think are the most artistically fulfilling experiences are the ones with very little written or spoken plot. Journey and Shadow of the Colossus are considered some of the better examples of videogame storytelling and they're incredibly minimalistic.
Though I'm not beyond saying that the problem might also have something to do with an apparent unwillingness to hire professional writers in a lot of cases. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more experimentation with plot in games. Though I'm not entirely sure that "walk around and get fed exposition" is exactly the way forward, as although examples in recent years have certainly been a puff of fresh air I doubt the concept will stay fresh for particularly long. Then again, who knows? Maybe it could get pretty popular with the help of immersion-enhancing technology like the Oculus.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46037303]I'm arguing that video games aren't the only medium plagued with "level of shitty writing, shallow and boring characters, and a blatant emphasis on pandering to the overwhelmingly male demographic of hardcore enthusiasts that people refuse to take a look at because it doesn't affect them."
Should I bring up books and Twilight?[/QUOTE]
at least the film industry has relatively high-ish budget trash movies that pander to women like romantic comedies that get churned out every year, in addition to the annual dudebro explosions movies.
games aren't quite at that level yet unfortunately.
you know I think the issue of games being [I]equally[/I] sexist is very overlooked.
For example take a look at the fantasy game that you're calling sexist for the females having bigboobies and scandalous clothes right? Well look the the males in those games, impossibly ripped and probably shirtless too. When this happens I don't think it's sexist because the males are equally portrayed to ridiculous standards of body type. It becomes some weird psychological perfect human body fantasy shit, and not as much as discrimination towards one side.
Now when it is one sided, that is the problem. My example of an actual sexist game is probably Guild Wars 2. For the most part everything is pretty alright and even, the armors are the same on each gender for all the classes, except when you get to the cloth wearers. It goes from normal male robe/light cloaks to full on 13-year old's lingerie fetish for girls for the same armors.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46037292]are you seriously trying to argue that videogames are well written lol[/QUOTE]
i think his point is that an entire medium is not a single entity that can be described as "good" or "bad" in any specific respect, and that poorly executed writing can be found in excess among every medium
and if that's not his point, it's mine
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46037291]you know I thought it made a lot of statements of fact that could easily be independently verified
[url]https://medium.com/@cainejw/the-factual-feminist-a-factcheck-f5ae584f56da[/url]
like that
Maybe this person is also wrong, but as far as I'm aware they aren't.[/QUOTE]
I was personally referring to the whole "Who cares it's videogames" thing but I'll bite.
You're completely disregarding-
a) The context that the video was made in
b) The source of the video in question
c) How irrelevant the statistics and credentials in that article are
I could care less about anything in that article when I've heard every single bit of information presented in that video on fucking 4chan, albeit presented in a slightly more professional manner. Her degree doesn't make her words fact- just a slightly more informed opinion, and even THEN it's still a blatant pandering piece for a conservative thinkhub.
it's strange because one of the most well written games I've played - Arcanum - has a vast majority of male and female characters and has the most awesome writing I've ever come across. The downfall is that the game is buggy as fuck and is hardly playable. I think my main beef is storyline and characters when it comes to video games. If we can figure out how to do that efficiently coupled together, maybe faggots of enormous proprotions will shut the ever loving fuck up.
if you're going to make gigantic fucking blocks of text, can you at least TRY and make it grammatically pleasant? seeing 1000 lines without capitals is, I am sure, the true cause of ebola
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