[QUOTE=aydin690;32386614]Why do citizens need guns in the first place? For some reason, americans (and only americans) think guns protect people.[/QUOTE]
Both the "American = gun nut" and "American = 'FREEDOM!!!' spammer" stereotypes, as well as a few others, have their root in the violent declaration of independence and have been passed down as a general mindset through a degree of patriotism absolutely ridiculous from a German perspective.
Personally I never understood patriotism. Every country is full of idiots, every country has fucked up in the past, I couldn't even generalize a random group of 100 people, leave alone an entire country's population + the population of its entire history.
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But back to topic. From a German perspective, the risk is simply greater than the benefit. True, criminals keep finding a way to purchase guns and become a threat, regardless of whether the honest citizen has one for self-defense. But does that mean we should make it easier for them and make the work for the police much more messy? How much of a "violence monopoly" should the police have and at what point do citizens become paranoid vigilantes? How many people purchase a gun just because it's cool (I won't even get into the media on this topic) and how many people even think about non-lethal self-defense? Police and SWAT know that lethal force is a last resort. But there's a frightening amount of people out there that will immediately ready the gun in self-defense regardless of the specifics of the situation. Everyday people don't undergo the stress tests of official forces. But there are too many people out there thinking all power comes in the shape of a gun instead of from within.
Personally I think both the "If I have the bigger stick, there will be peace" and "If nobody has a stick, there will be peace" perspectives are horribly naive and too extreme to be applied to reality in any kind or shape. I can't exactly talk about which policy works better for every country as information isn't neutral enough for such a decision. And yes I include "scientific" statistics into this as well.
Only remotely related but I can't leave without this link: [url]http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-myth-of-the-gun[/url]
inb4 boxes made in the US.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;32393820]What about the non lethal weapons in development which knock back incapacitate people? I would say I would much rather use those than a firearm that causes a slow, painful, bleeding death if you don't hit them in the head. That way you could let the law take care of them after the situation is over. We don't allow guns for self-defense in the UK, sure you can illegally get your hands on one with some work but it's minimized. I would however support non-lethal weapons to be distributed throughout and their use taught in the higher years of high schools.[/QUOTE]
You clearly have very little knowledge of defensive firearm use.
1. Non-lethal weapons are, at best, only slightly effective at stopping an attack - and that's only if you follow through by fleeing from your attacker. This isn't always possible or practical, especially if you're in your home, or if you're facing down multiple attackers. At worst, using a non-lethal weapon can get you killed.
2. Firearms do not cause slow, painful bleeding deaths. Firearms don't just poke holes in people, they cause massive hydrostatic shock, which can kill a person instantly.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock[/url]
In every firearm self-defense course you will ever take, they will recommend that you fire a large number of shots into the attacker's center mass. This isn't because defense instructors are psychopaths, this is because when you decide that your life is in danger, you [i]need[/i] to use maximum force. Anything less escalates the situation against your favor.
[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;32394452]Both the "American = gun nut" and "American = 'FREEDOM!!!' spammer" stereotypes, as well as a few others, have their root in the violent declaration of independence and have been passed down as a general mindset through a degree of patriotism absolutely ridiculous from a German perspective.
Personally I never understood patriotism. [/QUOTE]
Really, this just sums up your entire mindset. You don't understand it.
There are several factors keeping firearms legal in America.
1. The United States constitution declares gun ownership as a right that "shall not be infringed." Technically, any law whatsoever restricting access to guns is illegal according to the document which is the basis for the entire US government.
2. Any law which restricts civil rights is typically met with a great amount of public opposition. The mindset of many Americans is that the government should stay out of people's business as much as possible.
3. Gun ownership has a very strong culture in the US. A third of all households own guns, and millions of Americans use them for hunting or recreation. The gun industry is also a multi-billion dollar enterprise which has a strong presence in the economy.
[QUOTE=shian;32393557]How does carrying concealed weapons work in America? Just want to know.[/QUOTE]
The laws vary from state to state. Some states only issue CCW (concealed carry weapon) permits to people like politicians and bodyguards. Most states issue CCW permits to anyone who takes a defensive shooting class, though people can still be denied. Some states, such as Vermont, allow you to carry a concealed weapon without needing a carry permit at all.
You can buy special holsters that you can use to conceal weapons either in your pants or in a jacket/coat.
Some states also allow open carry of firearms, in which case you can have a simple non-concealed holster on your person. This isn't recommended, however, as it's an easy way to panic people.
[QUOTE=CrispexOps;32393807]My thoughts:
Guns don't kill people, irrationality kills people. Guns, in their earliest forms, have been used for thousands of years for hunting and sport, why must we limit something just because it is capable of killing? Butter kills more people a year than guns, yet you can buy it without even having a permit.
Also, people will ALWAYS find a way to get guns, much like drugs.[/QUOTE]
In France if you want to use guns for sports and hunting, you get a sports gun-handling license/a club available to take responsibility of you and give you a gun for a few shots taken, as long as you are in a firing range or at a competition, or get a hunting license.
Guns are being sold in specific stores but you have to prove you have the ability to use one and you only wish to use one for hunting or sports reasons.
I don't have anything against the freedom to own a gun. I just don't understand why anyone would want to. It's seems like a pain to go through the process of getting a license and all that. Plus you don't even need a gun to kill someone for protection.
[QUOTE=RusMar;32394721]I don't have anything against the freedom to own a gun. I just don't understand why anyone would want to. It's seems like a pain to go through the process of getting a license and all that. Plus you don't even need a gun to kill someone for protection.[/QUOTE]Licensing process? To buy a gun all I do is fill out FFL paperwork and wait a week. There's no such thing as a license to own a gun in the USA.
[QUOTE=RusMar;32394721]I don't have anything against the freedom to own a gun. I just don't understand why anyone would want to. It's seems like a pain to go through the process of getting a license and all that.[/QUOTE]
I have them mostly because I think they are pretty cool from a mechanical standpoint and are overall interesting.
Plus its peace of mind for those things that go bump in the night.
Also, about self-defense, non-lethal weaponry will never be as effective as a well used gun. First of, the mere fact it's non lethal isn't as scary and dissuasive as a gun capable of killing you (which CAN be in a slow, bleeding painful death, because taking point-blank a couple of 9mm rounds right in the stomach isn't killing you but sure fucks you up big time). Second, and that's the most important point, it's even easier to backfire. Take pepper sprays. It might seem like a good idea to have them but given your opponent is stronger than you, he can very easily take it from your head before you can even use it and spray your face with it to the very last drop.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;32394767]I have them mostly because I think they are pretty cool from a mechanical standpoint and are overall interesting.
Plus its peace of mind for those things that go bump in the night.[/QUOTE]Peace of mind indeed. I'm a very light sleeper, and I live in an area that gets lots of random break-ins. I sleep next to a 45, with a round chambered and 3 spare mag's next to it. Call me paranoid, but I call myself ready for when/if shit hits the fan. And if it really hits the fan, my AK is in my closet also loaded and with spare mag's.
[QUOTE=shian;32393557]How does carrying concealed weapons work in America? Just want to know.[/QUOTE]
This is presuming you've gone through the small relatively simple process of filling out the paper work and getting the permit from the Sheriff. (I took a class before hand because I had alot of questions and I can get one but I haven't applied for it yet because some personal things have taken priority at this time).
Anyway, the way it works in most states is like this, you can and are allowed to draw your weapon in self defense in the event that you feel your life and that of someone else is in immediate danger from an attacker.
There are no limits on the size of the handgun you can carry, as long as it DOES NOT leave an imprint on your clothing etc. It's called 'concealed carry' for a reason. You need to make an effort to keep it hidden.
And that's also why there are classes out there because information when it comes to this, is POWER. And it's also why most instructors would urge you to be proficient with your weapon so if God forbid the situation did arise that you would have to use it, you do so effectively and with minimal risk to anyone.
There are some users who can elaborate this because they do carry and have done so. I've just posted the basic premise behind it.
[QUOTE=Gubbinz96;32394886]This is presuming you've gone through the small relatively simple process of filling out the paper work and getting the permit from the Sheriff. (I took a class before hand because I had alot of questions and I can get one but I haven't applied for it yet because some personal things have taken priority at this time).
Anyway, the way it works in most states is like this, you can and are allowed to draw your weapon in self defense in the event that you feel your life and that of someone else is in immediate danger from an attacker.
There are no limits on the size of the handgun you can carry, as long as it DOES NOT leave an imprint on your clothing etc. It's called 'concealed carry' for a reason. You need to make an effort to keep it hidden.
And that's also why there are classes out there because information when it comes to this, is POWER. And it's also why most instructors would urge you to be proficient with your weapon so if God forbid the situation did arise that you would have to use it, you do so safely
There are some users who can elaborate this because they do carry and have done so. I've just posted the basic premise behind it.[/QUOTE]You forgot to mention the Democratically run states typically have very strict concealed carry laws. I posted a blurb above about how Maryland works.
[QUOTE=faze;32394737]Licensing process? To buy a gun all I do is fill out FFL paperwork and wait a week. There's no such thing as a license to own a gun in the USA.[/QUOTE]
In real states just fill out the FFL paper work and be out the door with firearm in hand in usually 45 minutes. It gets longer if you buy more than one OR buy a very new model of firearm X.
[QUOTE=Gubbinz96;32395041]In real states just fill out the FFL paper work and be out the door with firearm in hand in usually 45 minutes. It gets longer if you buy more than one OR buy a very new model of firearm X.[/QUOTE]Not true. Handguns and assault weapons are regulated in most states, and require a waiting period.
Criminals could easily use guns for their advantage. I think it should be illegal selling guns to civilians. But i think it is okay to use something like tasers, pepper sprays, etc. as a method of self defense.
[QUOTE=Daemon;32393500]As a british person i wholeheartedly hate the knives argument.
As we know, knives will never be shafted because of their specific uses. People mention that because they know it is as ridiculous as it sounds but you can't say no or you're agreeing with their argument.
But it's also like you are saying, "well knives kill people so why shouldn't we be allowed to own things that kill people?"
I know you didn't mention this directly but just incase or anyone else, please don't use this to forward your point.[/QUOTE]
Then why aren't all knives banned except kitchen ones? Are you ignoring that, or do you wholeheartedly hate logic as well?
[QUOTE=Egg;32395233]Criminals could easily use guns for their advantage. I think it should be illegal selling guns to civilians. But i think it is okay to use something like tasers, pepper sprays, etc. as a method of self defense.[/QUOTE]Almost 100% of crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns.
Also, guns have more range than tasers and pepper spray. Your argument is aged.
[QUOTE=Egg;32395233]Criminals could easily use guns for their advantage. I think it should be illegal selling guns to civilians. But i think it is okay to use something like tasers, pepper sprays, etc. as a method of self defense.[/QUOTE]
So you would knowingly allow a criminal to have an advantage over you? Good luck.
[QUOTE=Daemon;32393830]Indeed. Also which people could mistaken it for the banning of knives but specifically pointed knives, addressing how knives were unecessarily pointed. Modifying knives making them rounded at the tip would have been implemented.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you realize knives need a point. Try cutting your steak without a point on your knife, you'll have a hell of a hard time at it. Butchers, breadmakers, the average citizen, chefs, and even some sculpting artists need pointed knives. A ban on them would be illogical.
You could extend this to different kinds of guns but that leads to the necessity versus desire argument.
[QUOTE=Egg;32395233]Criminals could easily use guns for their advantage. I think it should be illegal selling guns to civilians. But i think it is okay to use something like tasers, pepper sprays, etc. as a method of self defense.[/QUOTE]
did you read through the thread even a little bit?
[QUOTE=faze;32395265]Almost 100% of crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns.
[/QUOTE]
Source?
Not arguing the point, but Ive been looking for a reliable source on the topic.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;32395458]Source?
Not arguing the point, but Ive been looking for a reliable source on the topic.[/QUOTE]There are so many studies. You can start here... [url]http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr[/url]
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;32395413]Try cutting your steak without a point on your knife, you'll have a hell of a hard time at it. [/QUOTE]I've done this millions of times without using the point. You need to sharpen your knives regularily, though.
[QUOTE=faze;32395499]There are so many studies. You can start here... [url]http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr[/url][/QUOTE]
That just seems to list the weapons that they were killed with, not weather they will illegally purchased or not.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;32395726]That just seems to list the weapons that they were killed with, not weather they will illegally purchased or not.[/QUOTE]Don't know, but I remember reading a ton of studies about this. Google isn't being helpful. I'll try and look when I get home from work later on.
I don't mind guns as long as people know how to handle them. I've heard that you can pretty much just walk in and buy one in America though. Why not an obligatory gun safety course for the people who are buying their first gun?
[QUOTE=Carne;32395807]I don't mind guns as long as people know how to handle them. I've heard that you can pretty much just walk in and buy one in America though. Why not an obligatory gun safety course for the people who are buying their first gun?[/QUOTE]If you have a criminal record you can't buy a gun in America. There is also a gun safety course you must pass, but it's pretty much just a lesson on common sense, "only point at what you're going to shoot, keep it away from kids..." etc.
I am on the fence in terms of people actually being able to own a firearm, but I am weirded out by the idea that guns are devices that were designed to kill.
I guess for now we should be able to own a firearm, but I hope that in the future no one will have a need to own one.
[QUOTE=faze;32395071]Not true. Handguns and assault weapons are regulated in most states, and require a waiting period.[/QUOTE]
Not in PA. (although I don't know about Philly)
I own several guns. I have to say the current standards in PA are pretty good. Simple paper work and a background check and you are out the door in 15 min.
My neighborhood isn't so great either so I also sleep with a loaded handgun next to my bed.
[QUOTE=T.F.W.O.;32395979]I am on the fence in terms of people actually being able to own a firearm, but I am weirded out by the idea that guns are devices that were designed to kill.
I guess for now we should be able to own a firearm, but I hope that in the future no one will have a need to own one.[/QUOTE]Anybody should be able to own a firearm, at least in America. That is what the 2nd amendment is for. But they're twisting it around, and now we have illegal guns. Thanks Clinton.
[editline]20th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ottomann;32396015]Not in PA. (although I don't know about Philly)
I own several guns. I have to say the current standards in PA are pretty good. Simple paper work and a background check and you are out the door in 15 min.
My neighborhood isn't so great either so I also sleep with a loaded handgun next to my bed.[/QUOTE]Handguns purchases in PA require a waiting period. I lived in York PA for 12 years of my life.
[QUOTE=faze;32396017]
Handguns purchases in PA require a waiting period. I lived in York PA for 12 years of my life.[/QUOTE]
I didn't have to wait for this.
[thumb]http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg365/Ottomann33/0920111539.jpg[/thumb]
[QUOTE=Ottomann;32396195]I didn't have to wait for this.
[thumb]http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg365/Ottomann33/0920111539.jpg[/thumb][/QUOTE]Don't know. Local laws maybe.
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