Your views on abortion? - General

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26918835]A fetus is a definite child, sperm is only a potential child, most sperm die any way.[/QUOTE] science disagrees. a fetus is not a child.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918858]Let me know when you're done attacking strawmen so we can get back into the real argument[/QUOTE] Well then what was your point?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918858]Let me know when you're done attacking strawmen so we can get back into the real argument[/QUOTE] Its a ring around, both sides have legitimate arguments. I've actually been playing devil's advocate this entire time. [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyAlt;26918872]science disagrees. a fetus is not a child.[/QUOTE] Science also says its still human.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918871]So hey carcarcargo, do you think that if a women miscarries after her fetus is "viable" she should be charged with manslaughter[/QUOTE] Miscarriages happen when the fetus has become too damaged to carry on birth and is also a natural process i.e the woman couldn't stop it happening.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;26918868]Ok then the limit for humans to have enough resources and not mess up the planet.[/QUOTE] Which can still happen even with population growth, we just need to adjust for it. Its more a societal thing going on that we don't adjust well in the States. But this is off topic.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26918909]Miscarriages happen when the fetus has become too damaged to carry on birth and is also a natural process i.e the woman couldn't stop it happening.[/QUOTE] Let's say she was driving carelessly and got into a minor accident which caused a miscarriage, just for this hypothetical.

[QUOTE=Swilly;26918910]Which can still happen even with population growth, we just need to adjust for it. Its more a societal thing going on that we don't adjust well in the States. But this is off topic.[/QUOTE] Yea well right now it would be better if people had less kids.

[QUOTE=Swilly;26918892]Its a ring around, both sides have legitimate arguments. I've actually been playing devil's advocate this entire time.[/QUOTE] Mhmm, and I've never denied the legitimacy of the other side. I see where they are coming from, and I also see that most of them don't consider the woman in all of this.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918927]Let's say she was driving carelessly and got into a minor accident which caused a miscarriage, just for this hypothetical.[/QUOTE] There is a difference between intentional and accidental.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918927]Let's say she was driving carelessly and got into a minor accident which caused a miscarriage, just for this hypothetical.[/QUOTE] Wait, wait, wait when did I say that killing the fetus should be a prosecutable crime? Talk about grabbing strawmen...

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918956]Mhmm, and I've never denied the legitimacy of the other side. I see where they are coming from, and I also see that most of them don't consider the woman in all of this.[/QUOTE] Most don't consider the child either. IN reality, both sides try to pretty up what is a very nasty but necessary practice. The whole process plays hell with a woman's psychology.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26918973]Wait, wait, wait when did I say that killing the fetus should be a prosecutable crime? Talk about grabbing strawmen...[/QUOTE] When you said that you agree with the current American system. A doctor performing late term abortions in the US can be prosecuted, can he not? Or am I wrong?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26919012]When you said that you agree with the current system. A doctor performing late term abortions in the US can be prosecuted, can he not? Or am I wrong?[/QUOTE] I was never talking about US law, however I do think he should be prosecuted, although not for man slaughter.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26919029]I was never talking about US law, however I do think he should be prosecuted, although not for man slaughter.[/QUOTE] Well what do you propose then? This is the place to post it so we can discuss.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26919091]Well what do you propose then? This is the place to post it so we can discuss.[/QUOTE] The woman can induce a miscarriage if she really wants to, no one stopping her especially since you couldn't prove she did it on purpose. However I agree with my own countries law and feel it should be illegal for a doctor to conduct an abortion after a certain point unless the baby has a disability or is potentially life threatening to the woman.

Don't want the baby? Abort it. It's not like the baby will know.

[QUOTE=johan_sm;26919218]Don't want the baby? Abort it. It's not like the baby will know.[/QUOTE] Well if the baby has a functioning brain it will.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26919150]The woman can induce a miscarriage if she really wants to, no one stopping her especially since you couldn't prove she did it on purpose. However I agree with my own countries law and feel it should be illegal for a doctor to conduct an abortion after a certain point [highlight]unless the baby has a disability[/highlight] or is potentially life threatening to the woman.[/QUOTE] Okay, can I ask you about the highlighted part though? You added that in because you feel the baby shouldn't be subject to a life of suffering, correct?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;26919246]Okay, can I ask you about the highlighted part though? You added that in because you feel the baby shouldn't be subject to a life of suffering, correct?[/QUOTE] I added that in because it's the same reason miscarriages happen, the body just doesn't detect the problems sometimes.

[QUOTE=Swilly;26918242]In reality, the DNA speaks for itself, its fucking human.[/QUOTE] I'd completely agree. Getting into all these semantics about when it should be considered human, or what it would really be called during what period, or whatever is totally missing the point of the whole issue at hand. Should a woman be allowed to put down her unborn offspring if she doesn't want it? I feel as though so many of the arguments on both side are so off topic to that question. I really don't see any interconnect with woman's rights. If they are going to be arguing rights they should strictly be arguing parental rights because the father has as much ownership as the mother. Saying "a woman has a right to her body" is something agreeable, but then combining it with "so she should be able to have an abortion" isn't very connected and avoiding what the issue is about. Rewording it to "a woman has a right to her body and therefore has a right to put down her own offspring" just doesn't sound good at all, and this is simply because it involves more than just the woman. Then a common place for the argument to go after that is if they should be considered independent or if they are just apart of the woman, the whole conversation is completely irrelevant to what the issue is about, and is likely to deal a lot with proper wording. Note that I'm really trying to give any strength to my wording, I'm trying to give best choice that would have the least impact. What someone would typically say in one of my examples is "a woman has a right to her body and therefore has a right to put murder her innocent unborn baby boy". To go a bit further, if it is come to the conclusion that the woman does have the right to put down her unborn child, then why doesn't the father have an equal say? It is simply because the child is inside the mother? I understand why that would make it seem like the mother should have more of a say, but for a child to be made it requires a male and a female and since the baby's creation can be considered 1/2 and 1/2 then the father should have just as much say in an abortion as the mother. A woman shouldn't be able to get an abortion if the father does not consent because that unborn parasite/blob/child/baby/fetus is just as much his as it is her's. I could see the counter argument being that the mother is the one that was to carry it around for 9 months and go into labor, but I don't see at all how that would chance the stance of ownership. Of course, exclude any common sense scenarios in any of my arguments, like if a woman was raped and the rapist says to keep it. Or if the mother might die and needs an abortion but the father says not to. I can see rational arguments on both sides, but I extremely dislike arguments that get away from the question being asked. Should a woman be allowed to put down her unborn offspring if she doesn't want it? You can use whatever wording you want, I tried to use the most detached wording I could so it wouldn't influence. To make my point clear, don't avoid the question, answer it. Talking about what rights a woman has and getting into if a fetus can be consider a human is avoiding the question. Answer the question directly. My opinion on abortion doesn't matter. I disagree with it, but I do think that it needs to be legal. If public knowledge and better protection makes significant, there could be a time where abortion isn't needed because people who would not want a child do put them under circumstances where they are likely to conceive and because the protection available would would be far too effective if used properly.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26919236]Well if the baby has a functioning brain it will.[/QUOTE] If it's a fetus, it won't.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26919236]Well if the baby has a functioning brain it will.[/QUOTE] do you remember being in the womb?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26919300]I added that in because it's the same reason miscarriages happen, the body just doesn't detect the problems sometimes.[/QUOTE] But I mean, disabled people still have a [i]chance[/i] at being happy, right? I'd say most disabled people are generally happy most of the time. If it's all about potential for a happy life you can't just dismiss that.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyAlt;26919348]do you remember being in the womb?[/QUOTE] I don't remember being one year old either, that doesn't mean my mother should have had the choice to wipe me off the face of the map. [editline]24th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;26919391]But I mean, disabled people still have a [I]chance[/I] at being happy, right? I'd say most disabled people are generally happy most of the time. If it's all about potential for a happy life you can't just dismiss that.[/QUOTE] Well tell that to the law courts. It's not what I think it's what they think.

First Trimester = Totally OK. Second Trimester = Thats pushing it, you're irresponsible and you should have gotten the abortion earlier. Third Trimester = You basically just killed your baby. Just about sums up my views on it. Should be legal regardless of the trimester, but if a couple gets an abortion in the third trimester, they are deserving of any ridicule or shunning that they get.

I believe in people learning to procure an ounce of civility and not mindlessly breeding like savages.

[QUOTE=Tanner;26919474]I believe in people learning to procure an ounce of civility and not mindlessly breeding like savages.[/QUOTE] Doesn't really explain your views on abortion. Most women/couples who get abortions get them because they accidentally got pregnant, or in rare cases, a woman may have been forcefully raped, or "raped" while intoxicated, which may have lead to an obviously unwanted pregnancy.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;26919425]I don't remember being one years old either, that doesn't mean my mother should have had the choice to wipe me off the face of the map.[/QUOTE] Yes she should have. She decided to bring you into it in the first place. She didn't need to. She didn't need to basically sacrifice her life for a screaming little shit people like to call babies. I don't get why couples can't just fuck for fun and abort if a pregnancy happens. If that does happen and they weren't trying, it's a little something called an [I]accident[/I]. That means the embryo wasn't supposed to have formed in the first place, so to fix said accident, you have an abortion. It has nothing to do with the taking away a potential life, it's just fixing something that was never supposed to happen in the first place. Or if the mother changes her mind. It's a big fucking decision, I think they have the right to change their mind on it.

[QUOTE=Sobek-;26898313]I'm totally fine with it. Especially so if the fetus appears to have a condition or issue that will greatly impact the person's quality of life. My thoughts were further reinforced when I watched a documentary about some fucked up religious woman who had a defective gene that caused half of her pregnancies to result in children who could barely make it to 20 and spent their entire lives in constant agony having surgery every second day to keep their useless skin from just falling off their bodies. She knew having children would cause this, she knew almost straight away from the doctors that this would happen to the baby, but she went right on ahead and vehemently denied the option of abortion because it [I]'wasn't the right thing to do - these things deserve a life, no matter how short'.[/I] Fuck. That. I will support abortion in any situation that it could be deemed necessary. No one should HAVE to go through life in pain or suffering or at a total disadvantage just because some dipshit parent got caught up in the idea that abortion is bad. It's not. Not in the fucking slightest.[/QUOTE] I only support abortion when the child is going to live a life of pain, other than that I think it's wrong.

[QUOTE=Mbbird;26919543]Yes she should have. She decided to bring you into it in the first place. She didn't need to. She didn't need to basically sacrifice her life for a screaming little shit people like to call babies. I don't get why couples can't just fuck for fun and abort if a pregnancy happens. If that does happen and they weren't trying, it's a little something called an [I]accident[/I]. That means the embryo wasn't supposed to have formed in the first place, so to fix said accident, you have an abortion. It has nothing to do with the taking away a potential life, it's just fixing something that was never supposed to happen in the first place. Or if the mother changes her mind. It's a big fucking decision, I think they have the right to change their mind on it.[/QUOTE] Oh god not another nihilist.