[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26935780] I also think there needs to be a good amount of research on when an unborn child can feel pain and have concious thought[/QUOTE]
an unborn child doesn't have conscious thought and who gives a fuck if it feels pain. what about the pain that the mother is suffering?
[QUOTE=Doriol;26935879]an unborn child doesn't have conscious thought and who gives a fuck if it feels pain[/QUOTE]
You can't use a blanket term for an unborn child at all stages, it doesn't magically go from a ball of cells to a concious human person at birth, there has to be some stage before it's born when you'd consider it a person. I support a woman's right for an earlier abortion but there is a stage where it becomes immoral.
[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26935780]As I have said in quite a lot of detail earlier on in the thread that didn't get much discussion, is that late term abortions should only be allowed if it is certain that it would endanger the mother's physical health or the child will be born with a severe defect that'll give it a short painful life.[/QUOTE]
She has full right to abort only the first trimester, the second is up to a physician if it's threatening her life or something, after that it's completely banned.
[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26935966]You can't use a blanket term for an unborn child at all stages, it doesn't magically go from a ball of cells to a concious human person at birth, there has to be some stage before it's born when you'd consider it a person. I support a woman's right for an earlier abortion but there is a stage where it becomes immoral.[/QUOTE]
a fetus is not a child until it finds its way out of the mother's vagina
also gg leaving out the part about the mother's pain, as if women shouldn't have control over their own bodies
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;26935977]She has full right to abort only the first trimester, the second is up to a physician if it's threatening her life or something, after that it's completely banned.[/QUOTE]
It depends where you are, in the UK its legal with two doctors signatures for most reasons up to 24 weeks and then after that it needs to endanger the mother's physical health or life or if the unborn child is going to have a serious disability.
[QUOTE=xXDictatorXx;26934786]
I agree that a foetus is both alive and human. That does not change my opinion however because to me being human does not mean it must be preserved at all costs.
Childbirth hurts more than abortions, also pregnancy for nine months can be life altering and the whole experience could ruin the woman's life.[/QUOTE]
True, I've seen post-natal depression, imagine that if you didn't even have a child you loved to get you through it.
[QUOTE=Doriol;26936003]a fetus is not a child until it finds its way out of the mother's vagina
also gg leaving out the part about the mother's pain, as if women shouldn't have control over their own bodies[/QUOTE]
Why, does something magical happen that gives a unborn baby a soul when it finds it's way out of the vagina. Also, any reasonable woman wouldn't leave an abortion to a few months before birth, and if that is the case, then it isn't a long wait till birth when they can keep or put the child up for abortion. And I say again I fully support a women's right to have an earlier abortion.
It depends, is a child in the womb (even in the early stages of development) in the slightest bit self-aware?
[QUOTE=one free man;26936234]It depends, is a child in the womb (even in the early stages of development) in the slightest bit self-aware?[/QUOTE]
In the early stages it seems highly unlikely.
[QUOTE=one free man;26936234]It depends, is a child in the womb (even in the early stages of development) in the slightest bit self-aware?[/QUOTE]
no
[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26936212]Why, does something magical happen that gives a unborn baby a soul when it finds it's way out of the vagina. Also, any reasonable woman wouldn't leave an abortion to a few months before birth, and if that is the case, then it isn't a long wait till birth when they can keep or put the child up for abortion. And I say again I fully support a women's right to have an earlier abortion.[/QUOTE]
but the thing is, once the foetus is dead, it's dead. It's not like there is any prolonged suffering. Sure if you believe in the catholic idea of limbo then it may suffer further, but otherwise the baby foetus is dead and that is that.
[editline]24th December 2010[/editline]
also I've know women who didn't realise they were pregnant until a few months in, it happens.
I am not religious, or any of that bullshit, but I don't support abortions.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;26936267]but the thing is, once the foetus is dead, it's dead. It's not like there is any prolonged suffering. Sure if you believe in the catholic idea of limbo then it may suffer further, but otherwise the baby foetus is dead and that is that.
[editline]24th December 2010[/editline]
also I've know women who didn't realise they were pregnant until a few months in, it happens.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but after a few months there isn't too long a wait till birth when you could keep or put the baby up for adoption, there is no point causing unnecessary pain, what is the difference between killing a fully concious individual in the womb and a fully concious 4 year old.
[QUOTE=Skyward;26936420]I am not religious, or any of that bullshit, but I don't support abortions.[/QUOTE]
Apart from religion there's not much reason to?
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;26936539]Apart from religion there's not much reason to?[/QUOTE]
besides misogyny
[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26936434]Yes, but after a few months there isn't too long a wait till birth when you could keep or put the baby up for adoption, there is no point causing unnecessary pain, what is the difference between killing a fully concious individual in the womb and a fully concious 4 year old.[/QUOTE]
the woman had to force a baby out of her vagina, ruining one of the greatest works of biology, for something that she isn't even going to keep
It shouldn't be done on a whim, but should be legal.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;26936560]the woman had to force a baby out of her vagina, ruining one of the greatest works of biology, for something that she isn't even going to keep[/QUOTE]
It's a myth that childbirth always completely fucks up the vagina, it's evolved for that job.
[editline]24th December 2010[/editline]
Also abortion can also fuck it up more than childbirth as the doctor pulls it back to get to the cervix.
I dunno, I've seen some disasterous post-pregnancy holes, the term 'wizards sleeve' comes to mind.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;26937170]I dunno, I've seen some disasterous post-pregnancy holes, the term 'wizards sleeve' comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
That's only in certain circumstances and they normally do a caesarian if it's likely to cause problems.
It doesn't really matter what our views on it is, what matters is that even if abortions are banned they will still happen except they will be back ally coat hanger abortions instead of safer abortions that happen in clinics and hospitals.
So for the safety of all women abortions should be legal.
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