Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - General

How can this video get this many response? It's not really that thought-provocing if you ask me.

[QUOTE=Dori;40827513]you win some you lose some[/QUOTE] It was probably spent on Gucci items.

The video was okay up until the point she said that "using violence against your girlfriend who has been possessed in the game to free her from her possession" is seen as domestic violence appologetics. Oh wait then she says that men in video games who feel bad about their wife dying only feel bad because of patriarchal gender-role, is she autistic? Does she know what emotions are?

[QUOTE=Patriarch;40827618]The video was okay up until the point she said that "using violence against your girlfriend who has been possessed in the game to free her from her possession" is seen as domestic violence appologetics. Oh wait then she says that men in video games who feel bad about their wife dying only feel bad because of patriarchal gender-role, is she autistic? Does she know what emotions are?[/QUOTE] She's not complaining about male characters are sad when their wife dies, she's saying it's an over used trope that pretty much depicts women as vulnerable and need a big strong man to avenge them. If this plot point was used in moderation it wouldn't be an issue, it's the fact that it's used over and over again enforcing this silly stereotypical idea.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40827607]It was probably spent on Gucci items.[/QUOTE] I didn't think you could fall back any faster on misogynist clichés

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40828233]I didn't think you could fall back any faster on misogynist clichés[/QUOTE] The ones causing great harm to females worldwide I assume.

[QUOTE=BloodYScar;40826808]In the end: Who is this woman to tell a whole art direction how to write their stories? Games are art, writing is art, and both will never be politically correct.[/QUOTE] You literally made the argument the ME3 devs made. I hope you're proud of yourself.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40828473]You literally made the argument the ME3 devs made. I hope you're proud of yourself.[/QUOTE] Is it a bad one though?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40828495]Is it a bad one though?[/QUOTE] Yes, it's trying to excuse laziness by hiding it under the title of "art"

The real problem with these videos is that the whole rhetoric falls short to a mere consideration- you simply can't discuss ethics by judjing a game with such degrees of violence, you end up making the 'violent games make killers out of our children' senate-like statements. Like when she said that the plot twist where women turns bad/evil and is to be killed or fought and linked it to domestic violence? Sorry but you're waaay off track. Of course some of the scenes she presented are distasteful, but it takes as much as questioning their validity and motives to be an oppositional reader and not give in to their power on you. They sure as hell won't make a women beater. What IS there to be said is that human relationships in these kind of games are, without exceptions, shallow and empty. I hardly ever had empathy for video game charachters, as they are never fleshed out, well designed, and appreciable ones. It's that same feeling when people die in crap horror movies. You just go and question yourself 'why should the death of this stranger get me involved in any way? It's the same reason why we murder tens of thousands of people in games and never question it, and why these kind of games NEED the damsel in distress trope, beleive it or not: reader- 'why should I care? Why should I start this adventure?' game- 'it's his wife dummy, you'd love her wouldn't you? even tho you just saw her in this cutscene' reader- 'I sure would! I'm not an horrible person. ok game, let's do this' This is also the same reason why you can see these deaths and go 'why did I have to see that, it's distasteful' and doesn't involve you emotionally while you watch the first 5 minutes of the Disney movie 'UP' and cry your ass off. Games as a medium tho can hardly pull an UP kind of reader-charachter involvement, as they- as a medium, must get to the action FAST, because it's what the people demand, and what the market provides. (at least these kind of violent games)

[QUOTE=lapsus_;40828650]The real problem with these videos is that the whole rhetoric falls short to a mere consideration- you simply can't discuss ethics by judjing a game with such degrees of violence, you end up making the 'violent games make killers out of our children' senate-like statements. Like when she said that the plot twist where women turns bad/evil and is to be killed or fought and linked it to domestic violence? Sorry but you're waaay off track. Of course some of the scenes she presented are distasteful, but it takes as much as questioning their validity and motives to be an oppositional reader and not give in to their power on you. They sure as hell won't make a women beater.[/quote] You can only say this is her argument in the most roundabout way possible, and even then you have to blatantly ignore a lot of what she says. [quote]What IS there to be said is that human relationships in our games are, without exceptions, shallow and empty. I hardly ever had empathy for video game charachters, as they are never fleshed out, well designed, and appreciable ones. It's that same feeling when people die in crap horror movies. You just go and question yourself 'why should the death of this stranger get me involved in any way?[/quote] This is part of what she is saying? [quote]It's the same reason why we murder tens of thousands of people in games and never question it, and why games NEED the damsel in distress trope, beleive it or not: reader- 'why should I care? Why should I start this adventure?' game- 'it's your wife you dummy, you love her don't you? even tho you just saw her in this cutscene' reader- 'I sure would if I were him! ok game'[/quote] This is contradictory to the first half of your paragraph. You want to see more fleshed out relationships, but you're ok with them taking the easy way out? For that matter, you haven't explained why it's absolutely necessary for games to rely on these tropes, and that's because it isn't. There is an entire realm of narrative possibility for games that lies barely scratched. [quote]This is also the same reason why I can see these deaths and go 'why did I have to see that, it's distasteful' while you watch the first 5 minutes of the Disney movie 'UP' and cry your ass off. Games as a medium tho can hardly pull an UP kind of reader-charachter involvement, as they- as a medium, must get to the action FAST, because it's what the people demand, and what the market provides.[/QUOTE] Games can't pull reader-character involvement? That is just wrong. Go watch egoraptor's megaman x sequelitis for more on that.

Did anyone else get slightly annoyed when she started laughing at that one part where the girlfriend is his arm? I think I'm nitpicking here.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;40829017]Did anyone else get slightly annoyed when she started laughing at that one part where the girlfriend i his arm? I think I'm nitpicking here.[/QUOTE] I cringed into a black-hole at that part.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;40829017]Did anyone else get slightly annoyed when she started laughing at that one part where the girlfriend is his arm? I think I'm nitpicking here.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it felt really forced. And seeing how serious she is the rest of the time it doesn't really fit.

Pretty good video. The "You have to kill your female companion" trope always bugged me before if even just in terms of being a lazy, cheap, and contrived way of kick off a games story or to keep it going after it's lost some of it's steam. To nitpick though I have a problem with two of her examples. Dana in Prototype 1 is a genuine character for about half the game who just happens to get grabbed by a monster to lure the protagonist somewhere. I suppose in that way she becomes a sort of object, but does the fact that she actually helps out the character earlier on negate this? Also keep in mind that Dana was really the only person you interact with in the story, the only other non-antagonist being another woman. I don't think this one was so much lazy writing but more just working with what they had. She definitely plays the part of a damsel; a monster carrying your sister through New York while she screams for help is about as cliched as you can get. But I wonder if her positive character traits earlier on in the story outweigh this. For the duration that she is actually on-screen, 80% of her time is spent helping the protagonist. Max Payne losing his wife and kid in the beginning of Max Payne 1 sets up a pretty obvious revenge plot but I don't think it was bad storytelling. When you play through the game it's revealed that his wife was murdered because she found out about [sp]Aeisir's manufacture of Valkyr[/sp]. We don't get to see her doing any of this investigative work in the game itself but echoing Sarkeesians point about female characters being able to die, I think that's a perfectly valid time and place for it. Of course both these points are nitpicking, and funny enough their direct sequels (Prototype 2 and The Fall of Max Payne) directly use the damsel in distress trope, the latter series culminating in Payne's realization that every woman he wants to protect dies horribly.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40828935]You can only say this is her argument in the most roundabout way possible, and even then you have to blatantly ignore a lot of what she says.[/quote] Ah. Did not ignore a thing, it seemed me so. It's not her whole argument of course, she adressed many other things I didn't complain about because I agree on [quote] This is part of what she is saying? [/quote] why, did I disagree on it? [quote] This is contradictory to the first half of your paragraph. You want to see more fleshed out relationships, but you're ok with them taking the easy way out? For that matter, you haven't explained why it's absolutely necessary for games to rely on these tropes, and that's because it isn't. There is an entire realm of narrative possibility for games that lies barely scratched.[/quote] I am not ok with it, the usual reader and digester of the content is- It is to laziest businesses to save time- thus money- thus earn more money. as you said , it is the easy way out. Readers don't question it, businesses abuse it. Also my apologies but I badly translated need, it my language it also mean 'have to rely' in a stronger way. [quote] Games can't pull reader-character involvement? That is just wrong. Go watch egoraptor's megaman x sequelitis for more on that.[/QUOTE] I have yet to experience one fleshed out charachter I care about in generic bad guys shooters and hack n slashes, the kind of games she seemed to reference the most about. I think I did watch that video in the past but I don't recall the full content, just about the game teaching you all very well gradually etc? I'll check it out again.

[QUOTE=Sub-Zero;40820406]Woman? The fuck does this have to do with my opinion on her rant being stupid? Is that how you look at it? I think that it's stupid that she discusses the sexism shit in video games. Are you stupid? Why doesn't she rant about WWF(they treated women horribly in the show and it had and still has a huge fanbase) which was so fucking big in the media and how it affected people or movies that EVERYBODY watches. All these but fucking video games? I wouldn't care if it was a guy or a woman but it's just fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] Don't worry man, this is the part where they put words in your mouth and make you out to be something you're not. It's a clear sign of desperation.

I don't see enough chubby chicks in video games. I see chubby dudes, but no chubby chicks. I say we need more chubb on the ladies.

I don't really think this video or any of the other videos will change anything. I mean sure her arguments are valid but its not going to really do anything other than raise awareness. Developers don't care about some feminists views, they only care about what will make them money. The $158,000 towards the making of this series could have been used for much greater causes. Its sicking to know people will dish out so much for a video on games, when it could somehow be used to aid the women oppressed in other countries or even donated to charity to be used to help the homeless and feed children or something. Nope, we get ten videos of her complaining.

[QUOTE=Laferio;40829636]I don't see enough chubby chicks in video games. I see chubby dudes, but no chubby chicks. I say we need more chubb on the ladies.[/QUOTE] Yes. There is plenty of diversity in men's appearances but women are more often than not whitewashed ideals.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;40829327]Dana in Prototype 1 is a genuine character for about half the game who just happens to get grabbed by a monster to lure the protagonist somewhere. I suppose in that way she becomes a sort of object, but does the fact that she actually helps out the character earlier on negate this? Also keep in mind that Dana was really the only person you interact with in the story, the only other non-antagonist being another woman. I don't think this one was so much lazy writing but more just working with what they had. She definitely plays the part of a damsel; a monster carrying your sister through New York while she screams for help is about as cliched as you can get. But I wonder if her positive character traits earlier on in the story outweigh this. For the duration that she is actually on-screen, 80% of her time is spent helping the protagonist.[/QUOTE] I think the point is that even if a character is well done or isn't defined by being a damsel, it's still contributing to the overall trend of women being a victim who needs saving. It wouldn't matter so much if it were just that one instance, but since it's part of the trend, it still counts, even if otherwise it's made up for by the other parts of the story.

[QUOTE=Rayboy1995;40829903] its not going to really do anything other than raise awareness. [/QUOTE] But that's just what it set out to do? Raise awareness about how trope overuse is causing a lopsided appeal in the products marketed towards what today is a pretty equally gender-divided gamer population. It's not like she was working on making developers to cease-and-desist and make games only her way. The way I see it, and the reason I'm finding this watchable, is that she is pretty much compiling and throwing her picture of the tropes out there, so that the next time the viewers play or write a game story they might give it an extra thought.

[QUOTE=lapsus_;40829433]Ah. Did not ignore a thing, it seemed me so. It's not her whole argument of course, she adressed many other things I didn't complain about because I agree on[/quote] She says at the end of the video that she doesn't mind that the tropes exist or are used, just that they get abused to the degree that they do. In that sense, reducing her argument down to "games cause x" doesn't really work. That's basically what I was referring to. [quote]why, did I disagree on it?[/quote] Your post kind of implied that she wasn't saying that. I can kind of see what you meant now, though. [quote]I am not ok with it, the usual reader and digester of the content is- It is to laziest businesses to save time- thus money- thus earn more money. as you said , it is the easy way out. Readers don't question it, businesses abuse it. Also my apologies but I badly translated need, it my language it also mean 'have to rely' in a stronger way.[/quote] This is one of the ways we can help change that. Make the average "reader" aware of the laziness in AAA games. I'd prefer the industry became less money oriented but, failing that, we can at least impact their bottom line. [quote]I have yet to experience one fleshed out charachter I care about in generic bad guys shooters and hack n slashes, the kind of games she seemed to reference the most about. I think I did watch that video in the past but I don't recall the full content, just about the game teaching you all very well gradually etc? I'll check it out again.[/QUOTE] Pay particular attention to the part where he "blows your mind". It's mainly about theming, but he also talks about how you don't need to empathize with game characters because you experience it directly.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;40830073]I think the point is that even if a character is well done or isn't defined by being a damsel, it's still contributing to the overall trend of women being a victim who needs saving. It wouldn't matter so much if it were just that one instance, but since it's part of the trend, it still counts, even if otherwise it's made up for by the other parts of the story.[/QUOTE] Yeah I saw that part of the video which is why I'm not 100% certain she got this wrong, but I don't think being a damsel was the main point of her character. That said, IIRC (it's been awhile since I played Prototype) it is the last time you interact with her.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;40830078]But that's just what it set out to do? It's not like she was working on making developers to cease-and-desist and make games only her way. The way I see it, and the reason I'm finding this watchable, is that she is pretty much compiling and throwing her picture of the tropes out there, so that the next time the viewers play or write a game story they might give it an extra thought.[/QUOTE] What is the purpose of her raising awareness? To change these things, people already know about these things they either don't care/oppose it or they agree with it. Most likely very few are going to change opinions over a video like this. So her raising awareness is pretty much pointless.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;40825130]Well, FP is a group of individuals of mixed opinions. Besides, I think a lot of people just don't bother going into these threads because her videos is no longer a new thing to rage about and because they know from the last thread they won't get showered in agrees.[/QUOTE] that's basically what I am saying. [editline]29th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Laferio;40829636]I don't see enough chubby chicks in video games. I see chubby dudes, but no chubby chicks. I say we need more chubb on the ladies.[/QUOTE] well there's fat princess lol some groundbreaking shit happening in that game [editline]29th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rayboy1995;40830137]What is the purpose of her raising awareness? To change these things, people already know about these things they either don't care/oppose it or they agree with it. Most likely very few are going to change opinions over a video like this. So her raising awareness is pretty much pointless.[/QUOTE] you're making a very large assumption both in saying that a video will not change people's minds (the entire video series being based around the fact a video game can change people's minds) and in saying that people are aware of these things and the issues attached to them. If so many people are aware of it why have we seen so little discussion of it up until recently?

[QUOTE=Rayboy1995;40830137]What is the purpose of her raising awareness? To change these things, people already know about these things they either don't care/oppose it or they agree with it. Most likely very few are going to change opinions over a video like this. So her raising awareness is pretty much pointless.[/QUOTE] Planting a seed for re-evaluation of the opinion each viewer holds on gender politics, and setting the foundation for some productive discussion on the topic? Awareness is the first step towards change. How do you think ideas and ideologies spread anyway? And, well, it's pretty obvious that most people are not aware. Some of those who aren't might be getting a small eye-opener. Some of those who don't care might start thinking about it. Some of those who oppose it might reevaluate their stance if presented with proper arguments. This is super-simple stuff really, she is only asking people to give it some thought and it's not like the video series is meant to start a revolution (lol Kony 2012). It's just educational material with a feminist angle.

Personally I really don't understand why any of it matters

[QUOTE=RoastedSagets;40830321]Personally I really don't understand why any of it matters[/QUOTE] Did you even watch the video? In particular the part about violence against women?

[QUOTE=Valnar;40830337]Did you even watch the video? In particular the part about violence against women?[/QUOTE] But they are fictional stories. I don't see how fictional stories could be taken like this and I don't see how this matters.