Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - General

[QUOTE=thisispain;40834959]what a nice pleasant response that was like im shocked at how nice that was[/QUOTE] snip i feel sad now

i was talking about the video not you wow

[QUOTE=thisispain;40835036]i was talking about the video not you wow[/QUOTE] :(

Most of the points in that video are refuted in part 2 and some in part 3 though? And the idea that it is first and foremost a business is a disgusting one

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40832072]Arguments about the ethicality of her kickstarter are irrelevant. I won't say there's nothing to them, but as far as the topics her videos are about, the only reason to bring it up is because you can't argue against her ideas.[/QUOTE] I find her ideas too far fetched and the result of overthinking. Games are filled with tropes, it's nothing new, and there are just as many tropes concerning men than women, but the whole "it's damaging women" thing sounds idiotic and all around stupid, because no one cares apart from the feminists complaining about it. If you're going to claim tropes such as the damsel in distress are damaging women and normalizing violence against women, you might as well say that the dumb testosterone filled soldier trope is damaging men and is normalizing the view of the military as a bunch of trigger happy maniacs with less brains than a trapanated dog. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;40835249]And the idea that it is first and foremost a business is a disgusting one[/QUOTE] Video games tend to focus much more on gameplay and how fun it is playing it rather than its story, hence why most of the time, the whole story is just pushed by your typical rescue the princess thing. Some of her examples of the most modern games using this trope are flawed or all around false. In Prey, Jen isn't Tommy's girlfriend, she's a close friend he has a crush on. She implies the whole focus of the game is to rescue her, which is false : she's not the central point of the game at all. She doesn't even mention the fact you also try to save your grandfather, who suffers the same treatment as Jen though earlier in the game. The mario series uses the whole peach thing as a running gag, because it just doesn't care about the story at all, the game is about jumping around and crushing stuff. In prototype, a woman is shot right at the beginning not because it's a trope to have a woman die needlessly, but to draw a very clear contrast between the soldiers depicted and any normal soldier : they shoot a woman in the face because she may be contaminated, not giving a shit about ethics or anything. It's actually using the fact that violence against women is NOT SEEN AS NORMAL to shock the player and establish really fast how shit things have turned. As for Dana Mercer, she doesn't even mention her main role in the second game, where she helps out the main character to kill her own brother, because he's become a huge threat. The worst example she could have pulled was probably Ico though. You can't accuse the game of lacking female development, because neither of the characters are developed on purpose. You protect the female character, sure, but she helps you out a whole lot and she's not exactly a dead weight nor a simple part of the decor you carry around : she's actually essential for the game to even function. Not to mention Ico and Shadow of the Colossus actually focus more on the notion of prince charming and how far one would go for love. The fact there is a damsel in distress (which, in one case, is actually dead right from the start) in the game is purely a consequence with no implications whatsoever. It's surprising she didn't even mention the fact that games using in all seriousness the damsel in distress trope are much rarer nowadays than way earlier in gaming history, which is a good thing because it means the phenomenon is slowly coming to an end, or at least slimming tremendously. Most titles going with a "rescue the princess" scenario either don't care about the scenario at all, or are joking about previous installments of the series (see how Super Meatboy mimics tons of old school kidnapping scenes from the NES era). Ideas apart, the video itself is pretty mediocre, technically speaking. It lacks dynamism and is a complete straight line of only talking, with her face right there. Barely any footage is shown in fullscreen, there is no background music whatsoever, etc. Before you go "whatever it's not important", it IS important because if you want to keep the viewer focused you have to give him more than constant speaking in order to keep his attention. Take breaks with footage of games, put some background music, use fade to black to separate points, etc. What would it be like if DYKG videos were composed of a guy staring at you for five minutes enumerating game facts with nothing but silence in the background ? It would be pretty boring, so thirty minutes of a woman talking aren't going to be all that more exciting either. Keeping your viewer's focus is essential and you can't expect your topic and your point to carry the viewer alone. Not to mention she tends to repeat herself a whole lot. Most of the time, she just goes on giving much, much more examples than necessary, or enumerating them and detailing them too much. For instance, when she describes how games tend to have a "damsel in the fridge" trope or whatever she calls it, she could have just given a list of games that does that with a bit of footage and it would have been enough, no need to repeat the same sentence over and over again, except if your goal is to be as tedious as possible and lose the viewer's attention by just being redundant. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Vedicardi;40831545]the fact you just name dropped tvtropes unironically tells me all i need to know.[/QUOTE] TV Tropes taught me the existence of very interesting concepts such as red herring, chekov's gun, etc. How exactly is it a bad website by any mean ?

I watched this vid with open mind and I really wanted to agree with it, but it just makes a sham out of a good point. Yeah there are many poorly written women characters that are basically tits as a reward for a quest or whatever which portrays women in a very bad and objectified way and there totally should be more good written female characters that we like for who they are and not for how much skin they are showing but fuck me, how much bullshit can you put on top of that point. Gaming community consist mostly of men. Is it really that fucking surprising that games are targeted for men and the stories are going to be men centered? That's the target audience. Of course stories in games will be made to appeal mostly to men. Men would like to be badass, strong, feared, respected, wealthy and we also like, big surprise, women. Of course those will be the incentives for the story. Nothing bad or weird about it, unless like I said before it's "tits for a quest" kind of thing. Also I like how female children are damsels in distress. It's a child, they can't fight back, it's not taking power from a woman that shouldn't need no man to get out of danger. They are helpless because they are children kidnapped by adults, not because they are women. The "fighting your girlfriend when she's been turned into a monster promotes violence against women because it often saves the woman which shows that beating your girlfriend is a good thing" thing. lol. In those games it shows how horrible it is that you have to fight your girlfriend, not how cool and nice it is. Also mind that you're not fighting her, but a monster that she turned into. It's no different than fighting a monster that's standing between you and your girlfriend. It's not like your character beats up his girlfriend and goes "This woman needs some spanking or else she will turn into a 10meter high monster and I hate when that happens". You really need to be high to see it as "beating your girlfriend is good". Also the "implication that the girl was man's possession", holy shit I had to stop there for a minute. So I guess it's sexist to say "Your wife/girlfriend" now? As in it implicates that she's yours, meaning your possession... what a fucking stake of horseshit. What's the alternative? That when a villain kidnaps your wife the man goes "meh I'll find another bitch"? How's that better? The characters go save their girls because they care about them not because their property got stolen rofl. What a sexist and objectifying way to look at things. Oh and the last funny thing. I like how Corvo the Empress's [I]bodyguard[/I] failed to "perform his socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his women and children" when the Empress got murdered. And how is it even a bad thing to protect women and children? I guess the next time I see a woman getting beaten up by a dude I will walk straight by because it would be discriminatory for me to help her...

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;40829017]Did anyone else get slightly annoyed when she started laughing at that one part where the girlfriend is his arm? I think I'm nitpicking here.[/QUOTE] Why? It sounds completely silly And also, let the "your girlfriend is your arm" sink in for a bit... It's pretty clear it can be interpreted as a [sp]masturbation joke[/sp] [QUOTE=Laferio;40829636]I don't see enough chubby chicks in video games. I see chubby dudes, but no chubby chicks. I say we need more chubb on the ladies.[/QUOTE] I was talking about this with a friend some days ago when we were reading a comic artbook: All the women in that artbook looked like carbon copies of your typical "ideal woman" with a few palette swaps (Mostly just the hair, sometimes the skin colour). I believe there was an image parodying (?) that, and I was reminded of it during the conversation, it was a tutorial for designing characters: male characters came in all sizes and shapes and all female ones were exactly the same aside from their hair colour. Both her and I agreed in that we wished for more varied body types in female characters to appear in media, which is also something that applies to videogames. Most of the time, female body types that are not your typical 90-60-90 are either played for laughs or made into "this is not what you should look like" remarks. Who says chubby/buff/tall/androgynous/non-"standard" women can't be drop dead gorgeous? If I ever get the chance of doing character designs for anything that's the first thing I'm going to do: varied female characters, just as varied as most male characters are already. [sub][sub][sub]I was also nitpicking about the dinosaurs in that book being clean-plucked/naked, but that's another story :v:[/sub][/sub][/sub]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40838687]Also I like how female children are damsels in distress. It's a child, they can't fight back, it's not taking power from a woman that shouldn't need no man to get out of danger. They are helpless because they are children kidnapped by adults, not because they are women.[/QUOTE] Its mostly the fact that even among children in video games, the ones being kidnapped or otherwise are overwhelmingly female. [quote]The "fighting your girlfriend when she's been turned into a monster promotes violence against women because it often saves the woman which shows that beating your girlfriend is a good thing" thing. lol. In those games it shows how horrible it is that you have to fight your girlfriend, not how cool and nice it is. Also mind that you're not fighting her, but a monster that she turned into. It's no different than fighting a monster that's standing between you and your girlfriend. It's not like your character beats up his girlfriend and goes "This woman needs some spanking or else she will turn into a 10meter high monster and I hate when that happens". You really need to be high to see it as "beating your girlfriend is good".[/quote] You are looking at this point from within the context of the stories, when a better view would be from within the context of the story writers. The whole point of that section is that it normalizes the violence against women. Things like, she was too weak to not get turned into a monster, she was asking to die, its the hero's duty to kill her can have some pretty bad connotations. [quote]Also the "implication that the girl was man's possession", holy shit I had to stop there for a minute. So I guess it's sexist to say "Your wife/girlfriend" now? As in it implicates that she's yours, meaning your possession... what a fucking stake of horseshit. What's the alternative? That when a villain kidnaps your wife the man goes "meh I'll find another bitch"? How's that better? The characters go save their girls because they care about them not because their property got stolen rofl. What a sexist and objectifying way to look at things.[/quote] Again you are looking at this through the context of the game story and not the story-writers. These damsel in distress characters tend to only have one trait, they are the hero's wife/girlfriend and only one role in the plot, to get kidnapped or die for the hero's motivation. They aren't given agency of their own and are generally only referred to in the context of being the hero's girlfriend/wife. [quote]Oh and the last funny thing. I like how Corvo the Empress's [I]bodyguard[/I] failed to "perform his socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his women and children" when the Empress got murdered. And how is it even a bad thing to protect women and children? I guess the next time I see a woman getting beaten up by a dude I will walk straight by because it would be discriminatory for me to help her...[/quote] Yet again, you are looking at this through the context of the game story. The empress' main role in the story was to die in order to start Corvo's adventure, and the child's main role was to act as a goal for Corvo. The reason why looking at this through the game's context isn't really good is because the game is fiction, any context could have been made for it.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40838687]I watched this vid with open mind and I really wanted to agree with it, but it just makes a sham out of a good point. Yeah there are many poorly written women characters that are basically tits as a reward for a quest or whatever which portrays women in a very bad and objectified way and there totally should be more good written female characters that we like for who they are and not for how much skin they are showing but fuck me, how much bullshit can you put on top of that point. Gaming community consist mostly of men. Is it really that fucking surprising that games are targeted for men and the stories are going to be men centered? That's the target audience. Of course stories in games will be made to appeal mostly to men. Men would like to be badass, strong, feared, respected, wealthy and we also like, big surprise, women. Of course those will be the incentives for the story. Nothing bad or weird about it, unless like I said before it's "tits for a quest" kind of thing. [/QUOTE] Well I appreciate that you at least watched the video, but I'm afraid you're doing it with the wrong mindset. What Anita Sarkessian is doing here is offering criticism, constructive, valid criticism that most male gamers have unfortunately perceived as an attack on their hobby and themselves. She's not saying the games are terrible, she's not saying all the developers are sexist, she's simply saying that a sizable majority of games (even games which she enjoys herself) make use of storytelling clichés and cheap plot devices that don't portray women in the best of ways. Regardless of your opinion on Sarkessian and her project I'm sure we can agree that women have a pretty bad image in video games. Yes, gaming is, unfortunately, pretty male-dominated, even when girls and women make up [URL="http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_Essential_Facts_2010.PDF"]about 40% of the gaming demographic[/URL], a figure that has likely risen quite a bit in the last three years, yet games continue to cater to 14-20 year old white males. Sure, the market is simply being smart and making money off those people, but what about the large percentage of gamers who won't be interested if not outright alienated by those products? That's what this is about, the current state of the gaming industry is one of stagnation, where creative works don't stand a change against the regurgitated, cookie cutter games that dominate the gaming market [I]and[/I] alienates potential customers by making use of clichés that do not represent them well if not outright offend them. Now, on to the trope itself: [quote]Also I like how female children are damsels in distress. It's a child, they can't fight back, it's not taking power from a woman that shouldn't need no man to get out of danger. They are helpless because they are children kidnapped by adults, not because they are women.[/quote] It's not that the child can't fight back against adults, that's preposterous. It's because the character, more often than not, has no depth and exists solely as a cheap plot device to motivate to player to do what they're supposed to do. Thus, the game's basically telling you to recover what's basically an object because she's a woman and she means something to you. This applies to most variations of the trope. [quote]The "fighting your girlfriend when she's been turned into a monster promotes violence against women because it often saves the woman which shows that beating your girlfriend is a good thing" thing. lol. In those games it shows how horrible it is that you have to fight your girlfriend, not how cool and nice it is. Also mind that you're not fighting her, but a monster that she turned into. It's no different than fighting a monster that's standing between you and your girlfriend. It's not like your character beats up his girlfriend and goes "This woman needs some spanking or else she will turn into a 10meter high monster and I hate when that happens". You really need to be high to see it as "beating your girlfriend is good". [/quote] Again, this is not what she meant. This variant of the trope is awful because you have to use violence to "help" this female character that has somehow been turned against you. The villain or whatever does something to her, and you're forced to fight/kill her to make come to her senses again/save her from her ailment (by the way, the developers are using this as cheap shock factor and exploit the player's emotions, not because they're sexist). This problematic because you're showing that the male has to use violence on the women he supposedly loves "for her own good" (see [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism"]paternalism[/URL]), reinforcing a notion that the man knows what's best for the woman, and that woman who "misbehave" must be corrected. The game's obviously not telling you to do these things, but it reinforces an image of women that is idealized and sexist (much like the idealized gruff muscular bald male hero, except we forced that one upon ourselves). [quote]Also the "implication that the girl was man's possession", holy shit I had to stop there for a minute. So I guess it's sexist to say "Your wife/girlfriend" now? As in it implicates that she's yours, meaning your possession... what a fucking stake of horseshit. What's the alternative? That when a villain kidnaps your wife the man goes "meh I'll find another bitch"? How's that better? The characters go save their girls because they care about them not because their property got stolen rofl. What a sexist and objectifying way to look at things.[/quote] Again, refer to what I said above. Wanting to rescue a significant other or a family member is a perfectly reasonable thing, but it becomes objectification because the characters that usually get kidnapped have no depth and no personality, being little more than an accessory to the male hero. You are told to care about them, rather than shown the supposed mutual bond between the characters (this is called "show, don't tell" in writing). This is bad because the characters who get this treatment are almost always women (hence [I]damsel[/I] in distress) and simply because it's been done to death and it's extremely predictable and cliché. That's not to say it can't be done well sometimes, though. For example, in Bioshock Infinite, the game all but tells you that Elizabeth is a poor helpless girl who needs you to save her, only to find out she's anything but. Then you spend most of the game at her side, getting to know her character and whatnot. [sp]Then when she gets abducted, you're doing it because you genuinely care about her, not because she's something to you or because the game tells you to.[/sp] Another funny thing, when the damsel character dies, their death is always played as tragic and emotional, but when the male characters die, no one gives a shit, because that's what they are expected to do (unless the game tells you that this character is important and you should feel bad about them dying). Another perfect example of how shitty representation videogames (and media in general) affects both sexes badly. [quote]Oh and the last funny thing. I like how Corvo the Empress's bodyguard failed to "perform his socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his women and children" when the Empress got murdered. And how is it even a bad thing to protect women and children? I guess the next time I see a woman getting beaten up by a dude I will walk straight by because it would be discriminatory for me to help her...[/quote] Same as the reason above (character is not actually a person but a plot device), the Empress's death is used as "emotional fuel" to propel the hero during his quest to save her daughter (who is also implied to be your daughter anyway). Granted, it's not as great an offender as the other games, but the idea is still there. She's not saying that you shouldn't help or be kind to women, or that being nice to women is sexist. That's just asinine. Well, my soapboxing is over. I've done everything I can at this point. All in all, what I'm trying to say, is that if you really want to understand and have a healthy discourse about this, you have to hear the dissenting opinion with an open mind, and wait to make up your opinion [I]after[/I] you hear them out. Sorry if that sounds condescending but I don't know how else to put it.

[QUOTE=Valnar;40841744]These damsel in distress characters tend to only have one trait, they are the hero's wife/girlfriend and only one role in the plot, to get kidnapped or die for the hero's motivation. They aren't given agency of their own and are generally only referred to in the context of being the hero's girlfriend/wife.[/QUOTE] Like I said "Yeah there are many poorly written women characters that are basically tits as a reward for a quest or whatever which portrays women in a very bad and objectified way and there totally should be more good written female characters that we like for who they are and not for how much skin they are showing" [QUOTE=Valnar;40841744] The whole point of that section is that it normalizes the violence against women. Things like, she was too weak to not get turned into a monster, she was asking to die, its the hero's duty to kill her can have some pretty bad connotations.[/QUOTE] How does it normalize violence against women? It's a monster that used to be a woman. You're not beating them because they wronged you but to save them from the curse or whatever it is. You beat the curse, not them. [QUOTE=Valnar;40841744]Its mostly the fact that even among children in video games, the ones being kidnapped or otherwise are overwhelmingly female. You are looking at this point from within the context of the stories, when a better view would be from within the context of the story writers. Again you are looking at this through the context of the game story and not the story-writers. Yet again, you are looking at this through the context of the game story. The empress' main role in the story was to die in order to start Corvo's adventure, and the child's main role was to act as a goal for Corvo. The reason why looking at this through the game's context isn't really good is because the game is fiction, any context could have been made for it.[/QUOTE] But those fictional stories are made for men, since most gamers are men. That's the target audience. Those are the things that help make the story attractive for men. That's why you save daughters not sons. Because it's easier for young men to care for their imaginary daughter than for a son. You are basically complaining that those stories made for men are too male oriented. Being a hero that saves a girl is the simplest story for men. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881]Well I appreciate that you at least watched the video, but I'm afraid you're doing it with the wrong mindset. What Anita Sarkessian is doing here is offering criticism, constructive, valid criticism that most male gamers have unfortunately perceived as an attack on their hobby and themselves. She's not saying the games are terrible, she's not saying all the developers are sexist, she's simply saying that a sizable majority of games (even games which she enjoys herself) make use of storytelling clichés and cheap plot devices that don't portray women in the best of ways. Regardless of your opinion on Sarkessian and her project I'm sure we can agree that women have a pretty bad image in video games. [/QUOTE] Well yeah, I said that in the beginning of the post you're quoting. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881] Yes, gaming is, unfortunately, pretty male-dominated, even when girls and women make up [URL="http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_Essential_Facts_2010.PDF"]about 40% of the gaming demographic[/URL], a figure that has likely risen quite a bit in the last three years, yet games continue to cater to 14-20 year old white males. Sure, the market is simply being smart and making money off those people, but what about the large percentage of gamers who won't be interested if not outright alienated by those products? That's what this is about, the current state of the gaming industry is one of stagnation, where creative works don't stand a change against the regurgitated, cookie cutter games that dominate the gaming market [I]and[/I] alienates potential customers by making use of clichés that do not represent them well if not outright offend them.[/QUOTE] I'd say the 40% is a giant exaggeration if we take away facebook/puzzle/angry birds types of games and concentrate only on those that actually have a plot. So when it comes to writing a story for a game, smart move is to make it for men. Although I admit it's not very nice, and I wish there was more female friendly games. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881] Now, on to the trope itself: It's not that the child can't fight back against adults, that's preposterous. It's because the character, more often than not, has no depth and exists solely as a cheap plot device to motivate to player to do what they're supposed to do. Thus, the game's basically telling you to recover what's basically an object because [B]she's a woman[/B] and she means something to you. This applies to most variations of the trope. [/QUOTE] But we're talking about children. A little girl isn't important to you because she's a woman, but because she's (your) child. Little girls are not damsels in distress they are children in distress. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881] Again, this is not what she meant. This variant of the trope is awful because you have to use violence to "help" this female character that has somehow been turned against you. The villain or whatever does something to her, and you're forced to fight/kill her to make come to her senses again/save her from her ailment (by the way, the developers are using this as cheap shock factor and exploit the player's emotions, not because they're sexist). This problematic because you're showing that the male has to use violence on the women he supposedly loves "for her own good" (see [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism"]paternalism[/URL]), reinforcing a notion that the man knows what's best for the woman, and that woman who "misbehave" must be corrected. The game's obviously not telling you to do these things, but it reinforces an image of women that is idealized and sexist (much like the idealized gruff muscular bald male hero, except we forced that one upon ourselves). [/QUOTE] First of all you are not using violence against HER, but against a monster that used to be her. You are fighting a monster or a diabolic version of her not real her. It might as well be a monster that stands between you and her, it works the same way, it just adds the shock value, adds "this is wrong" and "I don't really want to do it". Second it's not "for her own good" and it doesn't reinforce a notion that the man knows best what's best for the woman. She's been turned into a fucking monster or whatever. You don't have to be a man to know that she needs help. And often you are forced to fight/kill her. It's not like you go "I know what would help you, a good spanking". Third they don't "misbehave". It's not like they wrong you by their own will and you have to beat them up and set them straight. They are not themselves. It's not punishment or whatever. The message is, "when your girlfriend turns into a monster and tries to eat your face fight back and maybe you'll be able to save her once she's incapacitated" not "when a woman misbehaves, beat her up so she's nice again". You really have to misinterpret it by light years to see it like that. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881] Again, refer to what I said above. Wanting to rescue a significant other or a family member is a perfectly reasonable thing, but it becomes objectification because the characters that usually get kidnapped have no depth and no personality, being little more than an accessory to the male hero. You are told to care about them, rather than shown the supposed mutual bond between the characters (this is called "show, don't tell" in writing). [/QUOTE] Shitty, lazy writing. Like I said, there should be less of that. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881]Same as the reason above (character is not actually a person but a plot device), the Empress's death is used as "emotional fuel" to propel the hero during his quest to save her daughter (who is also implied to be your daughter anyway). Granted, it's not as great an offender as the other games, but the idea is still there. [/QUOTE] I was nitpicking that Corvo who's the fucking bodyguard supposedly failed to "perform his socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his women and children", while he actually just failed his job, not some socially prescribed duty. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40841881] She's not saying that you shouldn't help or be kind to women, or that being nice to women is sexist. That's just asinine.[/QUOTE] Well the "socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his women and children" seemed like it's something negative. Maybe I misinterpreted it.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40842000]Like I said "Yeah there are many poorly written women characters that are basically tits as a reward for a quest or whatever which portrays women in a very bad and objectified way and there totally should be more good written female characters that we like for who they are and not for how much skin they are showing"[/QUOTE] Yeah, but I would also add onto that some games try to cheaply add a social paternal role when they add a wife/girlfriend/daughter who are also completely one dimensional damsels. [quote]How does it normalize violence against women? It's a monster that used to be a woman. You're not beating them because they wronged you but to save them from the curse or whatever it is. You beat the curse, not them. [/quote] Because they share a lot of common themes and connotations with actual violence against women, like domestic abuse. The situation in the games ends up often being one where the man has complete control over the well-being of the woman, a parallel to domestic abuse. Some examples are: "her weakness gets in the way" (in the games often times she becomes a monster because she is too weak to stop it) "she was asking for it" (in games that use this, she literally asks for the man to attack/kill her) "its good for her" (attacking/killing her will free her of her curse) "violence is the only answer" (the only way for the hero to solve the situation tends to be attacking/killing her, this point in particular is harmful to men as well) Basically these situations justify a lot of the reasons that are shared with things like domestic abuse, which helps normalize violence against women. I want to clarify however that the situation itself isn't necessarily what is bad, rather it is the prevalence of it and the crudeness of how it is usually done that makes it bad. [quote] But those fictional stories are made for men, since most gamers are men. That's the target audience. Those are the things that help make the story attractive for men. That's why you save daughters not sons. Because it's easier for young men to care for their imaginary daughter than for a son. You are basically complaining that those stories made for men are too male oriented. Being a hero that saves a girl is the simplest story for men.[/quote] These are cheap plot tropes that are used when a story writer, but they also have some negative connotations for women because of how cheap and overused they are.

[QUOTE=Valnar;40842421]Because they share a lot of common themes and connotations with actual violence against women, like domestic abuse. The situation in the games ends up often being one where the man has complete control over the well-being of the woman, a parallel to domestic abuse. [/QUOTE] This is really far fetched. You are not beating the girl that wronged you. She's not herself. It has no parallel to real life domestic abuse until we invent mind control. [QUOTE=Valnar;40842421] Some examples are: "her weakness gets in the way" (in the games often times she becomes a monster because she is too weak to stop it) [/QUOTE] This happens to males all the time in video games, people get overwhelmed by someone stronger. Why is it a thing when it happens to women? Stupid double standards. [QUOTE=Valnar;40842421] "she was asking for it" (in games that use this, she literally asks for the man to attack/kill her) [/QUOTE] Wow the woman cares so much about a man that she's would rather die than kill the man. Wow, sexist. I like how when a man sacrifices himself for a woman it's a damsel in distress but when it's the other way around it's even worse. [QUOTE=Valnar;40842421] "its good for her" (attacking/killing her will free her of her curse) [/QUOTE] For the 5th time you are not attacking her. She's not in her right state of mind, it's not her. [QUOTE=Valnar;40842421] "violence is the only answer" (the only way for the hero to solve the situation tends to be attacking/killing her, this point in particular is harmful to men as well) [/QUOTE] You don't really expect to find some in depth, complex dialogs to solve problems in games like god of war... [QUOTE=Valnar;40842421] Basically these situations justify a lot of the reasons that are shared with things like domestic abuse, which helps normalize violence against women. I want to clarify however that the situation itself isn't necessarily what is bad, rather it is the prevalence of it and the crudeness of how it is usually done that makes it bad.[/QUOTE] It has nothing to do with domestic abuse. Unless you find me a game where a woman wrongs you by her own will and you have to set her straight using violence. [QUOTE=Valnar;40842421]These are cheap plot tropes that are used when a story writer, but they also have some negative connotations for women because of how cheap and overused they are.[/QUOTE] Cheap writing is bad no argument against that. But there's no reason to get shocked that stories are male oriented and that often they have something to do with saving women.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40838687]I watched this vid with open mind and I really wanted to agree with it, but it just makes a sham out of a good point. Yeah there are many poorly written women characters that are basically tits as a reward for a quest or whatever which portrays women in a very bad and objectified way and there totally should be more good written female characters that we like for who they are and not for how much skin they are showing but fuck me, how much bullshit can you put on top of that point. Gaming community consist mostly of men. Is it really that fucking surprising that games are targeted for men and the stories are going to be men centered? That's the target audience. Of course stories in games will be made to appeal mostly to men. Men would like to be badass, strong, feared, respected, wealthy and we also like, big surprise, women. Of course those will be the incentives for the story. Nothing bad or weird about it, unless like I said before it's "tits for a quest" kind of thing. Also I like how female children are damsels in distress. It's a child, they can't fight back, it's not taking power from a woman that shouldn't need no man to get out of danger. They are helpless because they are children kidnapped by adults, not because they are women. The "fighting your girlfriend when she's been turned into a monster promotes violence against women because it often saves the woman which shows that beating your girlfriend is a good thing" thing. lol. In those games it shows how horrible it is that you have to fight your girlfriend, not how cool and nice it is. Also mind that you're not fighting her, but a monster that she turned into. It's no different than fighting a monster that's standing between you and your girlfriend. It's not like your character beats up his girlfriend and goes "This woman needs some spanking or else she will turn into a 10meter high monster and I hate when that happens". You really need to be high to see it as "beating your girlfriend is good". Also the "implication that the girl was man's possession", holy shit I had to stop there for a minute. So I guess it's sexist to say "Your wife/girlfriend" now? As in it implicates that she's yours, meaning your possession... what a fucking stake of horseshit. What's the alternative? That when a villain kidnaps your wife the man goes "meh I'll find another bitch"? How's that better? The characters go save their girls because they care about them not because their property got stolen rofl. What a sexist and objectifying way to look at things. Oh and the last funny thing. I like how Corvo the Empress's [I]bodyguard[/I] failed to "perform his socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his women and children" when the Empress got murdered. And how is it even a bad thing to protect women and children? I guess the next time I see a woman getting beaten up by a dude I will walk straight by because it would be discriminatory for me to help her...[/QUOTE] The whole thing is just a consequence of overreaction and overthinking a simple, true and straight to the point idea. Women tend to have shit roles in games. That's it. From this point on, everything else is just pointless busywork of repeating oneself over and over again. Ultimately, it will have no consequence whatsoever because it made no sense to begin with.

Again, the problem isn't the plot points themselves, but rather the fact that they're used to often that they're practically stereotypes of women at this point. I'll admit I think the woman who made the documentary exaggerates some bits and I don't agree with everything she says, but she does bring up a lot of interesting points and it does show how overly male oriented the video game world is.

wow she disabled the like/dislike bar and comments I watched the video with an open mind but couldn't stop myself from thinking "Wow you took X example completely out of context." or that X example is what the game completely revolves around. I also liked how she selectively picked and chose certain bits from a game for being "misogynist" whilst completely ignoring any good you do for women. Really gives off the vibe that she doesn't know shit about the games she's talking about except for what she could gather from a 2 minute cutscene.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;40842790]Again, the problem isn't the plot points themselves, but rather the fact that they're used to often that they're practically stereotypes of women at this point. I'll admit I think the woman who made the documentary exaggerates some bit and I don't agree with everything she says, but she does bring up a lot of interesting points and it does show how overly male oriented the video game world is.[/QUOTE] The video game world is male oriented because that's how target demographics work. Dev teams are mostly composed of men and the players are mostly male, so for the most optimal writing possible, cliché story points are used over and over again. It does tend to really get more and more rare, as the whole damsel in distress thing is slowly becoming a thing of the past, and qualifying the main character's love interest dying a sexist trope is just desperately trying to find another thing to bash. Change and improvement won't happen in the span of a year because there is really not all that much we can do to help. The video game industry will keep using its usual tropes until they run dry (the damsel in distress thing is already pretty much a joke of itself at this point), or until an actually good writer shows up and writes a stellar piece of story with actually good female characters that aren't forced (Alyx Vance, Elizabeth, Amata, Veronica, etc). You can't speed up the process in any way because the result would be forced and too obvious and would just end up being a mess.

Anita Sarkeesian makes some good points thought that even make me question some of the games I have played. It was handled rather fairly in a way with word usage meant not to truly anger the viewer. I can agree with 95% of this but... The ICO bit where the need to defend is only directed to male players I have a problem with, I am a female gamer and even I had a drive to protect Yoruda. So i have a problem with the way it Sarkeesian phrased it. At least Wreck it Ralph tried something out and it was meant to be a comedic movie. Lastly, I remember playing Breath of Fired IV and wanting to give up at that very point.

im tired of how males are depicted in videogames why cant they be more chell in portal rather than an idiot with a gun that needs to kill obstacles to move on holy shit thats easy maybe i should get paid to do the made up job of culture critic

[QUOTE=ravenhurst;40843189]im tired of how males are depicted in videogames why cant they be more chell in portal rather than an idiot with a gun that needs to kill obstacles to move on holy shit thats easy maybe i should get paid to do the made up job of culture critic[/QUOTE] i certainly wouldnt pay you, that's dreadful, banal, pointless criticism.

Not too sure why should took a shot at bionic commando and sniggered. I mean sure it's really really goofy and a bit stupid but it's not exactly sexist, that was one of the few things I didn't really agree with her on.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;40843400]i certainly wouldnt pay you, that's dreadful, banal, pointless criticism.[/QUOTE] kind of like this chick's holy shit what a meaningless fucking job. she couldve set an example for women by getting into logic intensive jobs which have a mostly male workforce but she decides to be a useless fucking culture critic. her job would be more meaningful if she decided to be a highschool counselor

[QUOTE=ravenhurst;40843445]kind of like this chick's holy shit what a meaningless fucking job. she couldve set an example for women by getting into logic intensive jobs which have a mostly male workforce but she decides to be a useless fucking culture critic. her job would be more meaningful if she decided to be a highschool councillor[/QUOTE] not at all. the media is a massive influence in the perpetuation of gender roles. criticism works to change the media. change the media for the better, and that's a huge help.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;40843620]not at all. the media is a massive influence in the perpetuation of gender roles. criticism works to change the media. change the media for the better, and that's a huge help.[/QUOTE] Then go and change an actual medium, not video games. Video gaming is an industry that has nothing to do with educating anyone, and that is not going to trigger any worldwide social change because of its content, either for the best or the worst. And even if video games were, somehow, responsible for everything it's accused of in the video, including perpetuating gender roles, normalizing violence against women, disempowering women, feeding male power fantasies, etc, do you really think a several hours long series that is already repeating itself pretty bad is the way to go ? All it does is stir up some irrelevant shit for like a month top, then disappear back again. Game writing is already improving on its own without the need for a random individual calling everything sexist and damaging to women and offensive. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;40843401]Not too sure why should took a shot at bionic commando and sniggered. I mean sure it's really really goofy and a bit stupid but it's not exactly sexist, that was one of the few things I didn't really agree with her on.[/QUOTE] Isn't bionic commando originally about shooting people a lot until you get to blow up Hitler And why exactly is the "twist" of the recent reboot bad ? It's a heart warming, motivational moment, not an execution of some male power fantasy or some shit.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40835925]Ideas apart, the video itself is pretty mediocre, technically speaking. It lacks dynamism and is a complete straight line of only talking, with her face right there. Barely any footage is shown in fullscreen, there is no background music whatsoever, etc. Before you go "whatever it's not important", it IS important because if you want to keep the viewer focused you have to give him more than constant speaking in order to keep his attention. Take breaks with footage of games, put some background music, use fade to black to separate points, etc. What would it be like if DYKG videos were composed of a guy staring at you for five minutes enumerating game facts with nothing but silence in the background ? It would be pretty boring, so thirty minutes of a woman talking aren't going to be all that more exciting either. Keeping your viewer's focus is essential and you can't expect your topic and your point to carry the viewer alone. Not to mention she tends to repeat herself a whole lot. Most of the time, she just goes on giving much, much more examples than necessary, or enumerating them and detailing them too much. For instance, when she describes how games tend to have a "damsel in the fridge" trope or whatever she calls it, she could have just given a list of games that does that with a bit of footage and it would have been enough, no need to repeat the same sentence over and over again, except if your goal is to be as tedious as possible and lose the viewer's attention by just being redundant.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure she repeated herself on purpose to drum in the fact that all these games have extremely similar plots that can be summed up in the exact same sentence. Yes, it's tedious, but that's the point - it's also tedious when games recycle the same lazy plot devices over and over again. I thought this was a pretty clever and humorous way of showing that. Similarly, she gives such a large amount of examples to the point of absurdity, in order to show how widespread this sort of thing is. Also, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you were criticising her not mentioning surrounding factors in some of her examples, but on the other you think she's detailing her examples too much. She can't do both. I didn't find it boring, but then again I find the topic interesting anyway. I somewhat agree about the background music, though - she had it in her previous videos so I'm not sure why she removed it in these two. Maybe she thought it would distract from what she was saying, I don't know.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40843906]Then go and change an actual medium, not video games. Video gaming is an industry that has nothing to do with educating anyone, and that is not going to trigger any worldwide social change because of its content, either for the best or the worst. [/QUOTE] Video games are not an actual medium? What? You just lost what little credibility you had. You're the reason why videogames are still seen as childish entertainment and not as art. I'm not even gonna bother explaining you why. [quote]And even if video games were, somehow, responsible for everything it's accused of in the video, including perpetuating gender roles, normalizing violence against women, disempowering women, feeding male power fantasies, etc, do you really think a several hours long series that is already repeating itself pretty bad is the way to go ? All it does is stir up some irrelevant shit for like a month top, then disappear back again. Game writing is already improving on its own without the need for a random individual calling everything sexist and damaging to women and offensive. [/quote] Yes! Yes it is! It's one of many ways this problem can be brought into the light. If more people know about it, more people will be have a more critical view on the gaming industry, which in turn will generate a demand for better games. As for the quality of her statement, that is purely your opinion and holds no weight whatsoever. You can stay on the sidelines all you want, you can say and hope everything will fix itself given enough time and you can make a huge, unnecessarily verbose post saying that all this is irrelevant, but the harsh truth is that change only occurs when it's provoked. Actions generate reactions, doing nothing generates nothing. The only thing that is irrelevant here, is you. There are many ways to generate change. Apathy isn't one of them.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;40844167]I'm pretty sure she repeated herself on purpose to drum in the fact that all these games have extremely similar plots that can be summed up in the exact same sentence. Yes, it's tedious, but that's the point - it's also tedious when games recycle the same lazy plot devices over and over again. I thought this was a pretty clever and humorous way of showing that. Similarly, she gives such a large amount of examples to the point of absurdity, in order to show how widespread this sort of thing is. Also, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you were criticising her not mentioning surrounding factors in some of her examples, but on the other you think she's detailing her examples too much. She can't do both. I didn't find it boring, but then again I find the topic interesting anyway. I somewhat agree about the background music, though - she had it in her previous videos so I'm not sure why she removed it in these two. Maybe she thought it would distract from what she was saying, I don't know.[/QUOTE] But as I, and a few others have said, some of those examples just don't cut it. The fact that she just passingly mentions them without explanation or afterthought enforces that she might not have done enough research at all times.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40843906]Then go and change an actual medium, not video games. Video gaming is an industry that has nothing to do with educating anyone, and that is not going to trigger any worldwide social change because of its content, either for the best or the worst. And even if video games were, somehow, responsible for everything it's accused of in the video, including perpetuating gender roles, normalizing violence against women, disempowering women, feeding male power fantasies, etc, do you really think a several hours long series that is already repeating itself pretty bad is the way to go ? All it does is stir up some irrelevant shit for like a month top, then disappear back again. Game writing is already improving on its own without the need for a random individual calling everything sexist and damaging to women and offensive.[/QUOTE] Video games is an actual medium, they are no longer just a simple amusement, they tell stories, so they're on the same level as books and film. And stirring up shit is exactly the point of them, we're discussing this at length, and hopefully making people think about this. Changing attitudes is key to fighting sexism. Also, why the christ are you so offended by this? I mean jesus god, it's no skin off anyone's nose AT ALL, and I cannot understand why anyone would make a fuss about this.

It doesn't seem like she picks up on how sometimes mistreating women is played for laughs. Duke nukem isn't a serious game, it's supposed to be overplayed and really fucking stupid, not meant to be realistic. Grand Theft auto is supposed to be overly stupid to the point of laughs. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=e_k_M;40834872]i'll just post this thing here [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek&sns=em[/media] also i disagree when she pointed out asura's wrath and god of war because they were based on greek mythology other than that its somewhat informative even when her views of games are different (never saw ico as a male power fantasy, ect)[/QUOTE] [sp]I like the part where she used the Mac OS X Tiger default wallpaper[/sp] Nah but it was a good response.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;40844204]But as I, and a few others have said, some of those examples just don't cut it. The fact that she just passingly mentions them without explanation or afterthought enforces that she might not have done enough research at all times.[/QUOTE] Whether the examples cut it is largely a matter of opinion. She doesn't have time to go into detail of each example to explain how and why she feels it fits the trope. Not to mention a lot of people seem to think that just because a character is well written or has a powerful backstory or other extenuating circumstances that they don't fit the damsel in distress trope, which is just flat out wrong. If a woman is captured and needs rescuing by a man, she fits the trope. Whether the trope is played well or badly is besides the point.

Her videos make me want to hit her in the face.