Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - General

[QUOTE=-ZeeBo-;40844553]Her videos make me want to hit her in the face.[/QUOTE] seek help

There's a lot of things I think she gets totally wrong in this video.

[QUOTE=-ZeeBo-;40844704]There's a lot of things I think she gets totally wrong in this video.[/QUOTE] I'm waiting. Seriously, if you think she's wrong, nobody's preventing you from expressing your opinion.

She overanalyzes just about everything. With her logic a man should not feel the need to rescue his partner if she got captured and shouldn't feel bad if she died. And relationships and bonds between people are in games/movies/literature always more or less good plot devices. And the that shit at 12:22 is full on retard. She says that the death of the women is more meaningful than their lives, well that's the plot! And besides there's way more male on male violence, doesn't that count anyhow?

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40843906]Game writing is already improving on its own [/QUOTE] What fucking world do you live in?

[QUOTE=-ZeeBo-;40845101]She overanalyzes just about everything. With her logic a man should not feel the need to rescue his partner if she got captured and shouldn't feel bad if she died. And relationships and bonds between people are in games/movies/literature always more or less good plot devices. And the that shit at 12:22 is full on retard. She says that the death of the women is more meaningful than their lives, well that's the plot! And besides there's way more male on male violence, doesn't that count anyhow?[/QUOTE] Sounds like you need to read the thread. I don't feel like making another massive post that will probably be ignored so if you really want to understand it, go back a few posts. About the male on male violence, I already explained that in my previous post. No one cares when male characters die because they die doing what they're expected to do. That's why bad representation in media also harms men.

[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40845262]About the male on male violence, I already explained that in my previous post. No one cares when male characters die because they die doing what they're expected to do. That's why bad representation in media also harms men.[/QUOTE] So you're supposed to get butt hurt when women die? Well that's what they're using as plot device! Because damsel in distress with men doesn't work! There are a lot of games where the male character's "bro" or friend or whatever dies, gets in the shitter and needs help but there's no problem with that. Sarkeesian just got sand in her pussy.

[QUOTE=-ZeeBo-;40845360]So you're supposed to get butt hurt when women die? Well that's what they're using as plot device! Because damsel in distress with men doesn't work! There are a lot of games where the male character's "bro" or friend or whatever dies, gets in the shitter and needs help but there's no problem with that. Sarkeesian just got sand in her pussy.[/QUOTE] wow It's bad because it's a shitty, cheap plot device that uses the gruesome death of women as a way to get the player motivated. I'm not saying women can't die in videogames, that's absurd. I'm saying that the way the trope is used is in incredibly poor taste because the women who get killed aren't really characters at all, you are expected to care about them because the game [I]tells[/I] you as opposed to showing you why you should care about this person. A character who isn't developed isn't a character or a person, it's an object. Most of the time they're also incredibly sexualized, just so the player will pay attention to them. The damsel in distress trope is a problem because it has been a thing for so long (since [I]Midde Ages[/I]) that it has enforced a belief, that women are weak and helpless, and the brave men must save them.

What's the problem? [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40845402] It's bad because it's a shitty, cheap plot device that uses the gruesome death of women as a way to get the player motivated. I'm not saying women can't die in videogames, that's absurd. I'm saying that the way the trope is used is in incredibly poor taste because the women who get killed aren't really characters at all, you are expected to care about them because the game [I]tells[/I] you as opposed to showing you why you should care about this person.[/QUOTE] Yes it's a cheap plot device. And it has been used since forever. BUT there's really nothing wrong with it because humans are interested in relationship drama and heroes and all that shit. It's just human nature. And they "aren't characters at all" because it would be so forced if they would have to make a plot for the damsel in the first place and the person playing the videogame would eventually lose interest. This damsel in distress "wahh wahh women victimized by men, why can't women defend themselves" is just nothing but a lot of hot air in the end. [QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40845402] Most of the time they're also incredibly sexualized, just so the player will pay attention to them. The damsel in distress trope is a problem because it has been a thing for so long (since Midde Agees) that it has enforced a belief, that women are weak and helpless, and the brave men must save them. [/QUOTE] Men are sexualized too, but not in the same way as women. The damsel in distress is natural to humans because males are disposable and females are not. The video below explains why. And females are physically weaker than men, althought that doesn't matted in the times we live in but before 19th century it did. And it's human nature to have strong feelings for the opposite sex, hence the feel to be the rescuer, the protector of the weaker part, in this case a woman. Making it a good plot device. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA[/media]

[QUOTE=Hellduck;40844209]Video games is an actual medium, they are no longer just a simple amusement, they tell stories, so they're on the same level as books and film.[/QUOTE] It makes me laugh when nerds want their video games to be considered art and then cry when it gets criticized as such

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40845506]It makes me laugh when nerds want their video games to be considered art and then cry when it gets criticized as such[/QUOTE] It's incredibly saddening to see how two-faced a lot of people are when this issue comes up. Games will never be considered art by the mainstream until they start to tackle the big issues and the gaming community grows the fuck up. Ugh, I give up.

I thought this video brought up a good point, but it was too long (3 25 minute videos is far too much) and just sounded like a lecture. I'd recommend [URL="http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters"]this video on women in video games[/URL], it sounds less like a lecture because they talk about the roots of the problem, and show what makes a good female character rather than concentrate on one aspect of a bad one. I'd recommend watching all of Extra Credits, they really are great.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40845506]It makes me laugh when nerds want their video games to be considered art and then cry when it gets criticized as such[/QUOTE] This, it's like the ~art~ label is going to give them immunity against these things. "IT'S A MASTERPIECE AND IT'S PERFECT SO SHUT UP AND GET KILLED!!!". It's like the people on Deviantart that cover their ears and scream whenever someone tries to offer them advice and then complain when they don't improve. It's the total opposite, you must be critical with everything; even if you like it you're going to find stuff that can be criticised (For example, you can like Ocarina of Time a lot but also be critical about how you must use the Iron Boots on the Water Temple). That doesn't mean you have to be cynical, however: being too nitpicky with everything and focus on the negative makes you a horrible human being that's unable to enjoy things. In a nutshell, quoting what my parents have been telling me over and over, and also quoting the video itself: [QUOTE][...] it’s both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy a piece of media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects.[/QUOTE] Also, thank you for that avatar, now I'm hungry.

[QUOTE=Warriorx4;40845230]What fucking world do you live in?[/QUOTE] The number of games using the damsel in distress trope she seems to resent so much has decreased tremendously recently.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;40843620]not at all. the media is a massive influence in the perpetuation of gender roles. criticism works to change the media. change the media for the better, and that's a huge help.[/QUOTE] Well she kind of does a lousy job saying what is wrong. Peach is the figurehead of the Toadstool Kingdom and her kidnapping is the kingdom being thrown into discord so she is more than "just a prize for Mario." At the beginning of the game if you talk to the toad to the left of the door he even says something along these lines. They do an even better job at making the kingdom of importance for the character in Zelda. You are fighting Gannon's bringing Hyrule into darkness more than you are rescuing Zelda and they make that very apparent at the cutscene ending where they say something along the lines of, "Oh everything was fucked but now link kicked ass and all is well." It doesn't seem like she even played these games. She also doesn't seem to offer much of a solution. What should I do lady should I send angry letters to the devs I buy games from? Should I watch out for these portrayals of women and not give money to the companies that carry them out? Jeeze louise not only does she completely miss the point of these games but she tells me why I am wrong for enjoying them and doesn't want me to be part of the solution. Maybe she means well but she just comes off as a bitch really. If she did better research and actually played and understood these games then I bet she'd still have a point to make and would be able to make that point without being torn to shreds by the criticism of the entire internet to the extent of which he video gets jettisoned by youtube. She should've done that and tried her best to make the people who buy these games part of the solution instead of telling them why their n64 childhood was misogynistic.

[QUOTE=ravenhurst;40846067]Well she kind of does a lousy job saying what is wrong. Peach is the figurehead of the Toadstool Kingdom and her kidnapping is the kingdom being thrown into discord so she is more than "just a prize for Mario." At the beginning of the game if you talk to the toad to the left of the door he even says something along these lines. They do an even better job at making the kingdom of importance for the character in Zelda. You are fighting Gannon's bringing Hyrule into darkness more than you are rescuing Zelda and they make that very apparent at the cutscene ending where they say something along the lines of, "Oh everything was fucked but now link kicked ass and all is well." It doesn't seem like she even played these games. She also doesn't seem to offer much of a solution. What should I do lady should I send angry letters to the devs I buy games from? Should I watch out for these portrayals of women and not give money to the companies that carry them out? Jeeze louise not only does she completely miss the point of these games but she tells me why I am wrong for enjoying them and doesn't want me to be part of the solution. Maybe she means well but she just comes off as a bitch really.[/QUOTE] In my opinion she pretty much comes off as having no point, further than "omg women aren't equal in games". It's seriously 40 minutes of repeating the same info on the same tropes, over and over again. All of this could have been summed up in a single video, but apparently she's going to need three of them, just for the damsel in distress thing.

I watched the first 15 minutes minutes, I'd say they're right; most common plot devices used in gaming aren't very female friendly. I can't condemn developers for using them tough; like 80% of the gamerbase consists out of guys and as the video said using girls is an easy trick to immerse male gamers into the story. What bothers me most about the video and similar feminist videos is that they are so pointless... what are you going to do about it? Try to ban the said tropes or something? There's nothing to gain with these kind of videos because there will always be media and entertainment designed for men, with the said plot devices included to make them more enjoyable for the target audience.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40846137]In my opinion she pretty much comes off as having no point, further than "omg women aren't equal in games"[/QUOTE] This is like the fifth or sixth time you have posted this exact same statement with people wasting their time to correct you every time. Why are you still here if everything is pointless?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;40846384]This is like the fifth or sixth time you have posted this exact same statement with people wasting their time to correct you every time. Why are you still here if everything is pointless?[/QUOTE] How dare I visit a completely inconsequential message board in my spare time, I should be truly ashamed. And all of your corrections made no sense anyway. Not to mention, whether she's right or not doesn't change the fact that this is ultimately a very boring vid.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40846443]How dare I visit a completely inconsequential message board in my spare time, I should be truly ashamed. And all of your corrections made no sense anyway. Not to mention, whether she's right or not doesn't change the fact that this is ultimately a very boring vid.[/QUOTE] have you ever considered the reason they're not making sense is because you don't understand them?

[QUOTE=cheezey;40846265]What bothers me most about the video and similar feminist videos is that they are so pointless... what are you going to do about it? Try to ban the said tropes or something? There's nothing to gain with these kind of videos because there will always be media and entertainment designed for men, with the said plot devices included to make them more enjoyable for the target audience.[/QUOTE] The point is to instigate discussion ... which it has done. Also, isn't it a bit insulting to men to assume you need sexist plot devices in order to make it enjoyable to them? Surely men are capable of enjoying things with well done, complex female characters that are treated like human beings? I think a better approach to how these stories are written would be positive for everyone.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;40846530]have you ever considered the reason they're not making sense is because you don't understand them?[/QUOTE] I understand her point perfectly. It doesn't help all that much. How exactly is the mere presence of a trope (which, may I remind you, is here because of lazy writing, not because of any sort of higher social pressure) in a video game, a medium of active entertainment (understand one where you don't just watch like cinema or TV) do any of the following things : - normalizing violence against women - trivializing violence in couples - disempowering women on a social scale - reinforcing the stereotype of real women being useless and incapable - pushing men to see women as an object of desire - ensuring the long life of the annoying-woman-that-never-talks stereotype When no one is actually paying attention to those ? Do you think anyone playing their games is going "hey, you know what, I'm fine with that. I'm going to beat up a girl I know, wait for my girlfriend to break her leg so I can finish her off, shoot any woman on the phone right in the head, and act like a pure macho about it" ? No one does. Because no one actually pays attention. The one and only perception of women this changes, is the perception of women in VIDEO GAMES, and only in this media, which is a point she brings up and is perfectly valid (as well as entirely true). The problem is when she actually goes one step beyond and extends this to the real world, stating that these tropes somehow blur the line between video game female characters and real life women. Women in video games are pixels. Meshes with modeled tits, so they don't look like men. Lazy script-writing does the rest and does tend to make them annoying, unlikable, secondary and overall not as good as most male characters. Yes, male characters are more than once designed as male power fantasy - just like female characters are more than once designed as female beauty fantasy. A media being stereotyped is not going to harm the real world immediately just by having stereotypes in them. And the media IS improving. Constantly, as a matter of fact. In the same way native americans in movies used to be represented as this evil, silent menace of the civilized world and slowly but surely evolved into having actual, full blown and sympathetic roles, women are getting a better and better place in the medium because writers are learning to write good female characters as well while not falling into the man-with-boobs scenario. And just like native americans, we are still going to see the overly stereotypical vision of that type of character for a long time. In fact it will never go away, but it will wear off. It's already started wearing off. Just look at the number of good female characters we've had the past decades compared to the early years of video gaming : Alyx Vance, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Anna Navarre from Deus Ex, Kerrigan, Samus Aran, Clementine, Femshep, Alex Roivas (Eternal Darkness), Zoey from L4D, Heather Mason, Faith, Elizabeth, Eleanor Lamb... Most of these were written in the past two decades, and are amazing characters. There's a lot of other examples that I'm probably forgetting, but here's the fact : things do change. Anita Sarkeesian's point fails because she fails to keep this matter within the very contained walls of fiction. If there is one medium that is not going to leak this sort of "bad influence" over the real world, it is Video Gaming. The very limited amount of peoeple who actually went and beat someone to death or stole a car after playing a game are to sort with the clinically insane individuals. I have pretty much spent my entire life since age 5 playing video games and I've spent just as much time talking to people who have done the same, and not a single time have I met one that actually had prejudice against women because of what he experienced in a game. [editline]31st May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Tweevle;40846644]The point is to instigate discussion ... which it has done. Also, isn't it a bit insulting to men to assume you need sexist plot devices in order to make it enjoyable to them? Surely men are capable of enjoying things with well done, complex female characters that are treated like human beings? I think a better approach to how these stories are written would be positive for everyone.[/QUOTE] Just look at the massive backlash on the Tomb Raider devteam when one of the devs said they made Lara Croft intentionally weak and put her in the worst situations because that's how they thought players would sympathize with her the most. If they don't want to "protect" her, then no connection would be made. All of it being an excuse for putting an attempted rape scene in a franchise I love which is the main reason I decided not to buy this game (that and the super gritty "look we played dead space too" atmosphere is just not fitting). Do you think the community would have given such a harsh response if violence against women was as normalized as Sarkeesian wants to believe ?

Like Lennon said, woman is the nigger of the world.

When people go "this is a thing in games, why bother changing it", it bothers me. It should be changed so that you can have a better medium, with better stories, with better characters. Normalising a well-developed female character into the norm for male-aimed games is not a bad thing.

[QUOTE=Reds;40850714]When people go "this is a thing in games, why bother changing it", it bothers me. It should be changed so that you can have a better medium, with better stories, with better characters. Normalising a well-developed female character into the norm for male-aimed games is not a bad thing.[/QUOTE] I agree with the fact that the "damsel in distress", is a problem, and it really should change and evolve to something with more depth. I don't think anyone can disagree on that fact, but I don't think this is due to sexism or social pressure, it's quite purely just lazy/easy way out writing. Instead of overanalyzing the subject, arguing about cause & effect, time would be better spent in trying to come up with ways to improve the situation, as has been stated, it is already improving. If fans were to make it clear they want characters with more depth and substance, they would be inclined to start putting more effort into character development, and avoiding cheap stereotypical plot devices.

[QUOTE=Xavith;40850891]I agree with the fact that the "damsel in distress", is a problem, and it really should change and evolve to something with more depth. I don't think anyone can disagree on that fact, but I don't think this is due to sexism or social pressure, it's quite purely just lazy/easy way out writing. Instead of overanalyzing the subject, arguing about cause & effect, time would be better spent in trying to come up with ways to improve the situation, as has been stated, it is already improving. If fans were to make it clear they want characters with more depth and substance, they would be inclined to start putting more effort into character development, and avoiding cheap stereotypical plot devices.[/QUOTE] I don't think she is arguing that it is necessarily due to sexism or social pressure. Regardless of intention, it is perpetuating what could be considered as harmful themes to the feminist cause so she is trying to spread awareness. I don't think she has done it particularly well and looking at the schism this has caused it may have done more harm than good. Unfortunately, most people who play games couldn't give a shit about depth and substance in the story as long as they can shoot brown people and shout racial slurs over teamspeak.

[QUOTE=squids_eye;40851169]I don't think she is arguing that it is necessarily due to sexism or social pressure. Regardless of intention, it is perpetuating what could be considered as harmful themes to the feminist cause so she is trying to spread awareness. I don't think she has done it particularly well and looking at the schism this has caused it may have done more harm than good. Unfortunately, most people who play games couldn't give a shit about depth and substance in the story as long as they can shoot brown people and shout racial slurs over teamspeak.[/QUOTE] If there is one thing that can change the poor standard of writing in gaming (and it's really just a matter of poor standard of writing, nothing related to society on any higher level. There are tons of black dudes in video games that are just downright dumb because they were poorly written, but it doesn't mean it's normalizing racism), it's more games with proper female characters. And you can't really hurry that up. The best contribution you could possibly bring is to become a writer and eventually get to write a good story for a game that fits your standards of how women should be shown. Until then, well, you can't do much, and I'm fairly certain people are already aware of the situation. No one needs 40 minutes of references to understand shit should change, especially when some of the examples are taken out of context or misinformed. The most interesting part of her video was really the beginning when she explained where the whole thing originated, after that it's pretty much just constant repeating. If you want a list of games that do the damsel in distress thing, there already are [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DamselInDistress?from=Main.DistressedDamsel]websites dedicated to this[/url]. Sames goes for the [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge]woman in the fridge[/url] that's so lengthily described in the second part. And this trope doesn't even only include women.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40851356]If there is one thing that can change the poor standard of writing in gaming (and it's really just a matter of poor standard of writing, nothing related to society on any higher level. There are tons of black dudes in video games that are just downright dumb because they were poorly written, but it doesn't mean it's normalizing racism), [B]it's more games with proper female characters[/B]. And you can't really hurry that up. The best contribution you could possibly bring is to become a writer and eventually get to write a good story for a game that fits your standards of how women should be shown. Until then, well, you can't do much, and I'm fairly certain people are already aware of the situation. No one needs 40 minutes of references to understand shit should change, especially when some of the examples are taken out of context or misinformed. The most interesting part of her video was really the beginning when she explained where the whole thing originated, after that it's pretty much just constant repeating. If you want a list of games that do the damsel in distress thing, there already are [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DamselInDistress?from=Main.DistressedDamsel]websites dedicated to this[/url]. Sames goes for the [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge]woman in the fridge[/url] that's so lengthily described in the second part. And this trope doesn't even only include women.[/QUOTE] Might have been what you intended but it seems as though the relationship between good writing and quality of characters is independent of gender, and shit female characters star alongside shit male characters. It's the same issue with the same root cause and separating it by gender is pointless. While I think this kind of discussion is beneficial in indirect ways, this series just feels like a bait and switch. It's advertised as a video game critique but delivers nothing insightful, personal ideals of what should be, and a big diversion from the actual issue. It's not made any better by everyone propagating the idea that every detractor is just a manchild nerd that hates women and doesn't want them criticising their vidya gaems, remarkably similar to the PR from the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc]Jennifer Hepler[/url] shit.

Can someone explain to me how fighting a monster that your girlfriend turned into in a video game supports domestic violence in real life? For reference, in domestic violence you beat your girlfriend to set her straight after she wronged you. In video game you are forced to fight a monster that used to be your girlfriend, but she's no longer herself, in order not to get killed and to potentially free your girlfriend from a curse or whatever. I just don't see the connection. You don't fight your girlfriend, you fight something that isn't her. She didn't misbehave, she's not herself. You don't set her straight, you potentially save her from the curse. It's never portrayed as something good, but as something horrible and unpleasant. Edit: Rating me dumb does not explain anything.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40852674]Might have been what you intended but it seems as though the relationship between good writing and quality of characters is independent of gender, and shit female characters star alongside shit male characters. It's the same issue with the same root cause and separating it by gender is pointless. While I think this kind of discussion is beneficial in indirect ways, this series just feels like a bait and switch. It's advertised as a video game critique but delivers nothing insightful, personal ideals of what should be, and a big diversion from the actual issue. It's not made any better by everyone propagating the idea that [B]every detractor is just a manchild nerd that hates women and doesn't want them criticising their vidya gaems[/B], remarkably similar to the PR from the [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc"]Jennifer Hepler[/URL] shit.[/QUOTE] I agree, it's almost scary how quick some people are to judge just because you didn't agree or enjoy every aspect of her videos.