Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - General

The tropes aren't bad in a vacuum, but when they eclipse all other methods of narrative delivery, they become cancerous to the medium.

It was all right but there wasn't a spoiler warning in the video itself + I didn't read the thread before watching so I got to see hotline miami spoiler, fuck.

[QUOTE=Neolk;40856464]The tropes aren't bad in a vacuum, but when they eclipse all other methods of narrative delivery, they become cancerous to the medium.[/QUOTE] The issue is really all about the quality of the medium, and women related tropes aren't the only thing being rather harmful to the medium. The video focuses exclusively on women related tropes and sometimes actually obscures some of these tropes to only talk about the female occurrences of them (see the refrigerator trope), trying to convince the viewer that video game is harmful only to women somehow, which is false, misguided and actually a lie.

[QUOTE=01271;40857245]It was all right but there wasn't a spoiler warning in the video itself + I didn't read the thread before watching so I got to see hotline miami spoiler, fuck.[/QUOTE] If you're talking about the girl then you got nothing spoiled since she's only barely related to the story.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40845506]It makes me laugh when nerds want their video games to be considered art and then cry when it gets criticized as such[/QUOTE] they want to be taken seriously as connoisseurs of an art form but then they throw tantrums when someone starts suggesting that there's something wrong with trends in their video games

[QUOTE=Itachi_Crow;40858434]they want to be taken seriously as connoisseurs of an art form but then they throw tantrums when someone starts suggesting that there's something wrong with trends in their video games[/QUOTE] I really can't get myself to think of video gaming as a whole as art because it's really just entertainment, and the few games out there that actually call themselves are usually pretentious indie piece of shit games no one with a bit of sense would care about.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40859869]I really can't get myself to think of video gaming as a whole as art because it's really just entertainment, and the few games out there that actually call themselves are usually pretentious indie piece of shit games no one with a bit of sense would care about.[/QUOTE] Movies are just entertainment. Can they not be an art form?

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40859869]I really can't get myself to think of video gaming as a whole as art because it's really just entertainment[/QUOTE] but almost all art is entertainment? i don't get where you can draw the line on that cinema is primarily made as entertainment but is artistic documentaries are primarily made as entertainment but are artistic novels are primarily made as entertainment but are artistic paintings are primarily made as entertainment but are artistic sculptures are primarily made as entertainment but are artistic video games are primarily made as entertainment but are artistic they're all art

Some games can be considered art, some can't or at the very least can't be considered good art. It is the same with film, you've got good films that are undoubtedly art and then you have Hollywood schlock like Transformers 3 or The Hangover.

[QUOTE=squids_eye;40859939]Some games can be considered art, some can't or at the very least can't be considered good art. It is the same with film, you've got good films that are undoubtedly art and then you have Hollywood schlock like Transformers 3 or The Hangover.[/QUOTE] whether something is "good" or not doesn't decide whether or not it's art

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40857697]The issue is really all about the quality of the medium, and women related tropes aren't the only thing being rather harmful to the medium. The video focuses exclusively on women related tropes and sometimes actually obscures some of these tropes to only talk about the female occurrences of them (see the refrigerator trope), trying to convince the viewer that video game is harmful only to women somehow, which is false, misguided and actually a lie.[/QUOTE] It's not trying to say that at all. This is a feminist perspective, so of course it's going to deal exclusively with feminist issues; that doesn't mean that they're the only ones, though.

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;40859948]whether something is "good" or not doesn't decide whether or not it's art[/QUOTE] I know this isn't the actual definition but I count art as something that was created out of passion and not made primarily for financial gain. So games like Fifa which are pumped out every year are just a product but games which the devs invested their soul into so to speak are art. Obviously it isn't the only factor but it is one of the prerequisites that I have. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but art is such a vague thing it means something different to everyone.

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;40859948]whether something is "good" or not doesn't decide whether or not it's art[/QUOTE] The medium has the potential to be art, but that doesn't mean everything is art. Would you put kindergarten paintings up there with Van Gogh as equally art? If art has at its core expression, things that fail in that subjective area [I]can[/I] be called less of art. [QUOTE=1STrandomman;40860003]It's not trying to say that at all. This is a feminist perspective, so of course it's going to deal exclusively with feminist issues; that doesn't mean that they're the only ones, though.[/QUOTE] For some issues like assault where it's obvious that they might as well be two different issues, but that isn't the case here and a feminists perspective is about as relevant here as in discussing third-world poverty.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40860049]The medium has the potential to be art, but that doesn't mean everything is art. Would you put kindergarten paintings up there with Van Gogh as equally art? If art has at its core expression, things that fail in that subjective area [I]can[/I] be called less of art.[/QUOTE] they're both art, they're just not equal

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40859869]I really can't get myself to think of video gaming as a whole as art because it's really just entertainment, and the few games out there that actually call themselves are usually pretentious indie piece of shit games no one with a bit of sense would care about.[/QUOTE] nevermind the thousands of artist that pour hundreds of hours of effort into a single title. it's just entertainment!

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40860049]For some issues like assault where it's obvious that they might as well be two different issues, but that isn't the case here and a feminists perspective is about as relevant here as in discussing third-world poverty.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, could you rephrase that?

[QUOTE=squids_eye;40860032]I know this isn't the actual definition but I count art as something that was created out of passion and not made primarily for financial gain. So games like Fifa which are pumped out every year are just a product but games which the devs invested their soul into so to speak are art. Obviously it isn't the only factor but it is one of the prerequisites that I have. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but art is such a vague thing it means something different to everyone.[/QUOTE] does that many any piece of art that was commissioned not art, seeing as it was made for financial gain? that fifa thing you said isn't really a good argument, because there ARE artists that put a fuckton of effort into making the assets for fifa. just because it's an "ugh shovelware" game doesn't mean that people put a lot of effort into making it.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40860122]I'm sorry, could you rephrase that?[/QUOTE] For sexual and domestic assault, it disproportionately affects women, just as men are far more likely to be get drunk and get stabbed, they have different causes and focussing solely on women makes sense for that issue. For bad writing in games though it affects both genders the same and has the same root cause, so dividing it into how it affects men and women is pointless and unnecessary. It's as if you complained about women in poverty with only a brief mention that men in poverty are in the exact same situation, it's a perspective that unnecessarily highlights one side of the same issue.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;40860138]does that many any piece of art that was commissioned not art, seeing as it was made for financial gain? that fifa thing you said isn't really a good argument, because there ARE artists that put a fuckton of effort into making the assets for fifa. just because it's an "ugh shovelware" game doesn't mean that people put a lot of effort into making it.[/QUOTE] Generally artists that work for commision do enjoy making art, monetising something you love doing is fine and fits into my criteria. I suppose you are right about Fifa but I still wouldn't put it on the same level as other games. It has been basically the same thing with minor improvements for so long it is like if one guy did a painting and then a series of people just copied that painting once a year with minor additions. [editline]1st June 2013[/editline] Actually, having said that I would quite like to see someone do a really long term project of revisiting and reimagining the same painting over several years.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40860197]For sexual and domestic assault, it disproportionately affects women, just as men are far more likely to be get drunk and get stabbed, they have different causes and focussing solely on women makes sense for that issue. For bad writing in games though it affects both genders the same and has the same root cause, so dividing it into how it affects men and women is pointless and unnecessary. It's as if you complained about women in poverty with only a brief mention that men in poverty are in the exact same situation, it's a perspective that unnecessarily highlights one side of the same issue.[/QUOTE] No, how sloppy writing affects men and women in games is incomparable. It may be negative in the sense that it furthers certain stereotypes about men, but these attitudes are patriarchically prescribed. In other words, forgetting the fact that "meat-headedness" is never played as a negative in games (indeed, while their muscles are over-valued, it's never implied that these men are also intellectually inferior), these stereotypes put men in a dominant position. That's the difference here. Women are either under-represented, or represented in a manner that places them as submissive, whereas men are both over-represented AND placed in a dominant role. In other words, these stereotypes are part of a POWER fantasy. The stereotypes for women are the OPPOSITE. They're the ones being alienated here, that's why it's worth looking at it from that perspective.

[QUOTE=Winters;40859896]Movies are just entertainment. Can they not be an art form?[/QUOTE] Movies are entirely and purely focused on telling a story. There is no viewer interaction whatsoever. And movies that qualify themselves as ~art~ are also pretentious trainwrecks.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40860383]No, how sloppy writing affects men and women in games is incomparable. It may be negative in the sense that it furthers certain stereotypes about men, but these attitudes are patriarchically prescribed. In other words, forgetting the fact that "meat-headedness" is never played as a negative in games (indeed, while their muscles are over-valued, it's never implied that these men are also intellectually inferior), these stereotypes put men in a dominant position. That's the difference here. Women are either under-represented, or represented in a manner that places them as submissive, whereas men are both over-represented AND placed in a dominant role. In other words, these stereotypes are part of a POWER fantasy. The stereotypes for women are the OPPOSITE. They're the ones being alienated here, that's why it's worth looking at it from that perspective.[/QUOTE] And here we break out the big words, patriarchal and power fantasy, fascinating how these memes spread so much. Unfortuantely while they manifest themselves in ways you find unequal, the underlying cause and the solution to all of it is the same, improve the shit writing. Do you think there's some reason other than shit writing, is there some reason that would result in female characters still being shit if they fixed this, and do you think that replacing a poorly written "power fantasy" with something that's still poorly written but gender neutral would accomplish anything?

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40860538]And here we break out the big words, patriarchal and power fantasy, fascinating how these memes spread so much. Unfortuantely while they manifest themselves in ways you find unequal, the underlying cause and the solution to all of it is the same, improve the shit writing. Do you think there's some reason other than shit writing, is there some reason that would result in female characters still being shit if they fixed this, and do you think that replacing a poorly written "power fantasy" with something that's still poorly written but gender neutral would accomplish anything?[/QUOTE] Memes? The term patriarchy has been part of feminist dialectic since the beginning. You do realize feminism existed BEFORE video games, right? Like, it arose as a school of criticism in response to under-representation of women in literature? For that matter, most of the arguments you're raising against it here could similarly apply to literary feminism. Do you think my Professor made a mistake including this perspective in my critical writing course last semester? As to your second paragraph, I would consider more equal representation of women a massive improvement. Even were that not the case, it would accomplish something in that we could finally remove the "no girls allowed" sign from the clubhouse. [editline]p[/editline] I'm sorry, but I can't get over the fact that you just tried to reduce a critical perspective that has been established for over a century down to a fad.

The thing is people just yell out big words like Patriarchy or Misogynist all the freaking time. Same way some atheists on this forum call everyone that's not a LGBT atheist supporter a bigot.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40860642]The thing is people just yell out big words like Patriarchy or Misogynist all the freaking time. Same way some atheists on this forum call everyone that's not a LGBT atheist supporter a bigot.[/QUOTE] fucking sanius squad Look, it's up to you to know when the context for using terminology is appropriate. I'm not going to drop the use of academically accepted terms just because a couple self-righteous people decided it would be good to use them as insults. On top of that, writing off someone's argument because they happened to use a couple of words you don't like is the equivalent of an ad-hominem argument. You should be concerned with ideas, not the person giving them.

I literally see no one in my daily live complain about these problems, yet everyone on the internet makes it out to be a huge thing. Its probably because people in the real world can tell the difference between reality and fantasy, and as such, don't care. Just my 2¢.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40860465]Movies are entirely and purely focused on telling a story. There is no viewer interaction whatsoever. And movies that qualify themselves as ~art~ are also pretentious trainwrecks.[/QUOTE] I think you have this misunderstanding of what qualifies art. Art doesn't have to have this big deep meaning to it, people consider architecture and simple design an art. Your misunderstanding of the word or simply your preconceived misconception is what is driving your argument. Nonetheless just because something makes you think doesn't mean it's a pretentious trainwreck. Saying as much is equally as pretentious. art /ärt/ Noun The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance" Works produced by such skill and imagination.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40860614]Memes? The term patriarchy has been part of feminist dialectic since the beginning. You do realize feminism existed BEFORE video games, right? Like, it arose as a school of criticism in response to under-representation of women in literature? For that matter, most of the arguments you're raising against it here could similarly apply to literary feminism. Do you think my Professor made a mistake including this perspective in my critical writing course last semester? As to your second paragraph, I would consider more equal representation of women a massive improvement. Even were that not the case, it would accomplish something in that we could finally remove the "no girls allowed" sign from the clubhouse.[/QUOTE] I'm aware even if I don't really care, but I'm an asshole at the core and it was nothing but a little quip about how much of these arguments are just repeated memes. As much as I've had a shit time in an internship the last few weeks, at least I'm better off than arts majors. That was also a joke so please don't focus on it too much in your response. It really does seem short-sighted to focus on that, rather than solve a problem you just equally distribute it. Surely you can see why killing two birds with one stone is better than complaining the stone is sexist. [QUOTE=1STrandomman;40860729]fucking sanius squad Look, it's up to you to know when the context for using terminology is appropriate. I'm not going to drop the use of academically accepted terms just because a couple self-righteous people decided it would be good to use them as insults. On top of that, writing off someone's argument because they happened to use a couple of words you don't like is the equivalent of an ad-hominem argument. You should be concerned with ideas, not the person giving them.[/QUOTE] Writing off what exactly? My argument stands on its own and I argued it without reliance on such petty shit. Maybe you should be concerned with the actual arguments I make rather than focussing on the strawman of what names I call you?

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40860791]It really does seem short-sighted to focus on that, rather than solve a problem you just equally distribute it. Surely you can see why killing two birds with one stone is better than complaining the stone is sexist.[/quote] You've basically ignored everything I've said. The whole point of feminism is to call attention to a perspective that would otherwise be ignored; it focuses on solving the problem of alienation of women. If you want a perspective that solves the problem of bad writing, you're looking for formalism. The beautiful thing about critical theory is that you don't have to throw out one school in order to make use of the others. In fact, they're often used together. The idea that we should just throw out entire perspectives for no real reason is ridiculous. [quote]Writing off what exactly? My argument stands on its own and I argued it without reliance on such petty shit. Maybe you should be concerned with the actual arguments I make rather than focussing on the strawman of what names I call you?[/QUOTE] For one thing, that wasn't directed at you. Even then, you still tried to discredit my argument by associating it with memes, so yeah, you did. On top of that, I [b]have[/b] concerned myself with your actual arguments, all of which up to this point seem to be based on ignorance. I've argued every point and never once resorted to an ad-hominem. That said, I'm not making a strawman argument. I haven't reduced your argument down to name calling; I'll give you that much, it's not. Ironically, by attempting to reduce my argument down to a strawman, you've created a strawman yourself.

[QUOTE=Quantuam VTX;40860756]I literally see no one in my daily live complain about these problems, yet everyone on the internet makes it out to be a huge thing. Its probably because people in the real world can tell the difference between reality and fantasy, and as such, don't care. Just my 2¢.[/QUOTE] that's why there's still a payment inequity, still people that believe in gender roles, and still sexism, right?