Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - General

i never really understood why these threads last so long

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;40860961]that's why there's still a [B]payment inequity[/B], still people that believe in gender roles, and still sexism, right?[/QUOTE] [citation needed] What does any of that have to do with video games? I was talking about the discussion in the thread.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40860906]You've basically ignored everything I've said. The whole point of feminism is to call attention to a perspective that would otherwise be ignored; [B]it focuses on solving the problem of alienation of women[/B]. If you want a perspective that solves the problem of bad writing, you're looking for formalism. The beautiful thing about critical theory is that you don't have to throw out one school in order to make use of the others. In fact, they're often used together. The idea that we should just throw out entire perspectives for no real reason is ridiculous.[/quote] Formalism is hardly necessary when most writing is barely high-school standard. You're close to the issue though, and that is why is a feminist perspective deserving of so much more focus than say a Muslim or gay perspective? A holistic approach that aims to improve the basics and all the issues that come with it is far more useful, because these aren't prejudices and negligences, these are writers who have no idea what they're doing and how to use the medium. I go back to my previous point as well, in the examples that do have good writing, is a feminist perspective still necessary or has the issue rectified itself? [quote]For one thing, that wasn't directed at you. Even then, you still tried to discredit my argument by associating it with memes, so yeah, you did. On top of that, I [b]have[/b] concerned myself with your actual arguments, all of which up to this point seem to be based on ignorance. I've argued every point and never once resorted to an ad-hominem. That said, I'm not making a strawman argument. I haven't reduced your argument down to name calling; I'll give you that much, it's not. Ironically, by attempting to reduce my argument down to a strawman, you've created a strawman yourself.[/QUOTE] LOGICAL FALLACY WAR, WHOO! Really though, how about we focus on the actual shit and if you have to insult the other person, at least make a joke of it for some entertainment rather than just wanking all over hurr yur dumb ad hominem. You do also realise that a meme is a pseudo-self perpetuating idea analogues to genes, right? It doesn't always mean advice dog or a reddit comic.

[QUOTE=Quantuam VTX;40861159][citation needed][/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nationalpartnership.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=38947&security=2141&news_iv_ctrl=1741[/url] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09/women-and-equal-pay-wage-gap_n_3038806.html[/url] [url]http://www.pay-equity.org/info-time.html[/url] It exists. Denying it is just being plain ignorant. I agree it does have little to do with the content of the video though/

[QUOTE=Devodiere;40861266]Formalism is hardly necessary when most writing is barely high-school standard.[/QUOTE] That doesn't make any sense, but ok. [quote]You're close to the issue though, and that is why is a feminist perspective deserving of so much more focus than say a Muslim or gay perspective? A holistic approach that aims to improve the basics and all the issues that come with it is far more useful, because these aren't prejudices and negligences, these are writers who have no idea what they're doing and how to use the medium. I go back to my previous point as well, in the examples that do have good writing, is a feminist perspective still necessary or has the issue rectified itself?[/quote] Feminism isn't more deserving, that's a non-issue. For one thing, gender studies encapsulates multiple perspectives, including feminism and yes, queer theory. The point is, all of the perspectives you've listed have their own ideas behind them, their own dialectic. Trying to mush them together into some amalgamation of a theory would result in a loss of distinction, as well as be totally pointless, because again, the beauty of critical theory is that you can use ideas from multiple schools to create a more complex interpretation. The creation of a "unified theory" to replace them all is overcomplicated and unnecessary. It's like saying "but why do we need a physics, and a chemistry, when we can have a basic theory to replace them all?" As to whether "good writing" rectifies the issue, the answer is a resounding "not necessarily." The problem isn't that these tropes are inherently bad, the problem is that they're constantly relied on. Games can use them well and not be problematic, and often do, the problem is when EVERY game uses them. [quote]LOGICAL FALLACY WAR, WHOO! Really though, how about we focus on the actual shit and if you have to insult the other person, at least make a joke of it for some entertainment rather than just wanking all over hurr yur dumb ad hominem. [/quote] Fine with me, I have no idea why you kept on this. Like I said, the first reply wasn't even directed at you. [quote]You do also realise that a meme is a pseudo-self perpetuating idea analogues to genes, right? It doesn't always mean advice dog or a reddit comic. [/quote] I know that, but you weren't using it in an academic context, you were using it to make some smug observation. Forget it, it has nothing to do with the main argument.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;40861696]That doesn't make any sense, but ok. Feminism isn't more deserving, that's a non-issue. For one thing, gender studies encapsulates multiple perspectives, including feminism and yes, queer theory. The point is, all of the perspectives you've listed have their own ideas behind them, their own dialectic. Trying to mush them together into some amalgamation of a theory would result in a loss of distinction, as well as be totally pointless, because again, the beauty of critical theory is that you can use ideas from multiple schools to create a more complex interpretation. The creation of a "unified theory" to replace them all is overcomplicated and unnecessary. It's like saying "but why do we need a physics, and a chemistry, when we can have a basic theory to replace them all?" As to whether "good writing" rectifies the issue, the answer is a resounding "not necessarily." The problem isn't that these tropes are inherently bad, the problem is that they're constantly relied on. Games can use them well and not be problematic, and often do, the problem is when EVERY game uses them. [/QUOTE] The point that apparently doesn't make sense is that you wouldn't use the tools of critical analysis on a Sonic fanfiction and most video game writing held up as a bad example is about that level. You fix the basics so it's somewhat respectable in writing before you even start on this shit. The result of this kind of analysis is that it doesn't help anything because most problems it aims to fix would be solved by improving the basics anyway. "Not necessarily", very non-committal. Note my use of most because we obviously can't expect perfection, but do people analyse the good examples to give good critiques, or do they more often aim for the low hanging fruit? Even when they do aim a bit higher, is there any real analysis or is it as Anita does where nothing matters but the trope and more men than women automatically equals sexism? Good criticism of actual things would be welcome, but I doubt your professor gave you a $2 romance novel and talked about how the lead wasn't ideal enough.

I have a minor criticism. [quote] TRIGGER WARNING: This video contains a handful of graphic scenes involving violence against women. Parents should preview the video first before sharing with young children.[/quote] This reminds me to a time in high school a few years back. A student wrote an essay and the English teacher there criticized it out loud. And the essay read "Oprah is one of the most powerful black women in the world." So the professor says that it's silly to include the term black. It subconsciously implies that within the grouping of black people she is powerful, but when she is compared with other races, she is no longer powerful. This is ridiculous, so he suggested that the student change it to "Oprah is one of the most powerful women in the world," or even "Oprah is one of the most powerful people in the world." For similar reasons, I find the modifier "violence against women," to be redundant and unnecessary; why not just say "This video contains a handful of graphic scenes involving violence. Parents should preview the video first before sharing with young children."

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;40861958]I have a minor criticism. This reminds me to a time in high school a few years back. A student wrote an essay and the English teacher there criticized it out loud. And the essay read "Oprah is one of the most powerful black women in the world." So the professor says that it's silly to include the term black. It subconsciously implies that within the grouping of black people she is powerful, but when she is compared with other races, she is no longer powerful. This is ridiculous, so he suggested that the student change it to "Oprah is one of the most powerful women in the world," or even "Oprah is one of the most powerful people in the world." For similar reasons, I find the modifier "violence against women," to be redundant and unnecessary; why not just say "This video contains a handful of graphic scenes involving violence. Parents should preview the video first before sharing with young children."[/QUOTE] Violence against women has a specific definition with regards to one-sided violence/domestic violence. One of the points she specifically made was that a female character getting hurt in a fight on equal grounds isn't categorized as violence against women.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;40861958]I have a minor criticism. This reminds me to a time in high school a few years back. A student wrote an essay and the English teacher there criticized it out loud. And the essay read "Oprah is one of the most powerful black women in the world." So the professor says that it's silly to include the term black. It subconsciously implies that within the grouping of black people she is powerful, but when she is compared with other races, she is no longer powerful. This is ridiculous, so he suggested that the student change it to "Oprah is one of the most powerful women in the world," or even "Oprah is one of the most powerful people in the world." For similar reasons, I find the modifier "violence against women," to be redundant and unnecessary; why not just say "This video contains a handful of graphic scenes involving violence. Parents should preview the video first before sharing with young children."[/QUOTE] I'm not entirely familiar with triggers, I find the term a little bit cringeworthy since it is associated with those annoying Tumblr activists in my head, but I don't think it is meant just because it is inappropriate for children to view. As far as I am aware it is to warn people who might have a strong emotional response to the content that is going to be shown, like a victim of domestic abuse having flashbacks when they see violence against women.

[QUOTE=Winters;40861299][url]http://www.nationalpartnership.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=38947&security=2141&news_iv_ctrl=1741[/url] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09/women-and-equal-pay-wage-gap_n_3038806.html[/url] [url]http://www.pay-equity.org/info-time.html[/url] It exists. Denying it is just being plain ignorant. I agree it does have little to do with the content of the video though/[/QUOTE] While I agree that the pay gap does exist, I believe it is largely due to women going into different professions.

[t]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60577000/gif/_60577743_women_top_jobs_624_1-01.gif[/t] Statistics like this aren't because they just don't choose to go into certain professions. Women aren't any less capable of doing the jobs but only around 30% of the top positions are held by a woman. Even in professions like education where there are more women working as teachers than men, they only make up just over a third of senior staff.