• Is free will possible, or are we always affect by some level of determinism
    354 replies, posted
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43171553]This is true for most who accept that interpretation, there's just a few who genuinely do believe that they're actual physical universes, which is silly but an interesting idea.[/QUOTE] But if the strings theory is correct the universe possesses 9 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension. Now we can imagine that in the beggining all the dimensions were twisted together and during the big bang 3 spatial dimensions (height, widght and depth) and 1 temporal dimension (time) were deployed. The other 6 remains minuscule and wound up together. If we do live in a universe of wound dimensions, how do we distinguish between illusion and reality? I mean, time as we know it is a dimension we experience only in one direction, but what if the additional dimensions weren't spatial, but temporal? So, the point isn't to physically exist in other dimensions or not, but how these other dimensions would affect our perception of reality, therefore affecting our choices and how the universe itself behaves through the randomness of events that our everyday choices generate in each particular perspective. Edgar Morin would describe them as "reality alterations through physical inter-relations", but basically it says that shit you do changes shit for everyone else, shit they do changes things for everyone else and so on.
I think this discussion would benefit from agreeing on what constitutes as free will. From my point of view, it would be the ability to make decision that were made because you wanted to and not because that is the order of things. This seems impossible for me even from a biological standpoint. From my limited understanding of how the brain works, it's basically a network of neurons and to make decisions like that you would need to fire off neurons from nothing. This is a very poorly based theory as I've not looked much into the workings of the brain, but yeah, something would have to come from nothing.
The universe being deterministic doesn't matter. What matters is that humans are deterministic, and are capable of creating decisions without being programmed to.
[QUOTE=Jookia;43176174]The universe being deterministic doesn't matter. What matters is that humans are deterministic, and are capable of creating decisions without being programmed to.[/QUOTE] Well you decisions are made more on the basis of experience in the past and current experience. You're not creating the decisions, your brain is just calculating what the best decision is on the basis of experience and so on.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43176446]Well you decisions are made more on the basis of experience in the past and current experience. You're not creating the decisions, your brain is just calculating what the best decision is on the basis of experience and so on.[/QUOTE] If you cloned like, 1000 copies of me, and put them in identical coffee shops, would you contend that all 1000 clones would order the same thing? I feel like for a lot of things, they are determined. Like, it is probably determined if I am going to be a serial rapist because I don't want to, but the little things I feel I make decisions in my everyday life (what to order to eat) for example.
[QUOTE=Flameon;43176702]If you cloned like, 1000 copies of me, and put them in identical coffee shops, would you contend that all 1000 clones would order the same thing? I feel like for a lot of things, they are determined. Like, it is probably determined if I am going to be a serial rapist because I don't want to, but the little things I feel I make decisions in my everyday life (what to order to eat) for example.[/QUOTE] Well it's unlikely they'd all order the same thing due to the randomness of quantum mechanics if it has any effect on the macro world. However randomness still wouldn't be free will. It's very likely many of them would order something very similar.
[QUOTE=Falubii;43164861]I don't think behavior is completely determined, due to the inherently random behavior of atoms on quantum scales. This does not mean that free will exists however, because randomness isn't up to you. "If the behavior of atoms is determined, then there's no freedom. If it's random, then there's no will." -Some random speaker I forgot Also this is a pretty good video regardless of what you think of his other views: [video=youtube;FanhvXO9Pk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk[/video][/QUOTE] how can you possibly know that any behavior is truly random though? just because we don't exactly understand the behavior of atoms fully does not mean that quantum = true random
[QUOTE=Bobie;43176974]how can you possibly know that any behavior is truly random though? just because we don't exactly understand the behavior of atoms fully does not mean that quantum = true random[/QUOTE] True we don't know if it is truly random or not, the current understanding just gives the impression of randomness. But really it's most likely going to be either super determinism or random and neither really give free will
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43177024]True we don't know if it is truly random or not, the current understanding just gives the impression of randomness. But really it's most likely going to be either super determinism or random and neither really give free will[/QUOTE] i think its likely psuedo-random in the sense that; from our perception it [I]may as well[/I] be random, but on some extremely minute level there are determining forces, which in turn probably seem random as well. its pretty cool to think about really
[QUOTE=Bobie;43177072]i think its likely psuedo-random in the sense that; from our perception it [I]may as well[/I] be random, but on some extremely minute level there are determining forces, which in turn probably seem random as well. its pretty cool to think about really[/QUOTE] Well there's also the potential for it being a random mechanic, which I do believe is something Stephen Hawking put forward to hypothesise that the universe could have began from a quantum event, or at least something like that I'm not to clear on the details with me only having a rudimentary understanding of physics. This here seems to discuss the idea of true randomness [url]http://www.askamathematician.com/2009/12/q-do-physicists-really-believe-in-true-randomness/[/url]
[QUOTE=Flameon;43167502] A ton of things can move particles? F= MA the expansion of the universe Gravity?[/QUOTE] When talking about the intrinsically random movements of particles at a quantum level, they don't really physically move in the same way macro objects move. An electron can't really be thought of a small charged ball with mass in this case. The electron is distributed through space as a probability wave, it's position non exact, nor it's size. (see de broglie wavelength on wikipedia) This makes equations from classical mechanics (F=MA) moot. Collapsing the wave function of any given particle gives you fairly random results, and so it can be said that the effects of quantum mechanics are at least seemingly random. To all: There is quantum effects that are observable on a macroscopic example. A superconductor is an example of this. I don't know what this is called, but I believe that our actions are rooted to some form of randomness, yet we have no control over this randomness, hence we don't have any free will.
[QUOTE=Demx;43427013]When talking about the intrinsically random movements of particles at a quantum level, they don't really physically move in the same way macro objects move. An electron can't really be thought of a small charged ball with mass in this case. The electron is distributed through space as a probability wave, it's position non exact, nor it's size. (see de broglie wavelength on wikipedia) This makes equations from classical mechanics (F=MA) moot. Collapsing the wave function of any given particle gives you fairly random results, and so it can be said that the effects of quantum mechanics are at least seemingly random. To all: There is quantum effects that are observable on a macroscopic example. A superconductor is an example of this. I don't know what this is called, but I believe that our actions are rooted to some form of randomness, yet we have no control over this randomness, hence we don't have any free will.[/QUOTE] Correct. To dissect this further, the apparent randomness can have two possible sources. One is some system outside of the observable domain (perhaps in some higher dimension that we cannot peer into the workings of) that is in itself deterministic, but the outcomes of which are impossible to predict if you are limited to only observing our 3+1 dimensions. We would have no way of manipulating the outcome, so no free will. Another possible source is the Many-Worlds Interpretation, in which all possible outcomes occur in separate independent branches of the timeline. The appearance of randomness arises from us finding ourselves in an arbitrary branch. We have no way of dictating which branch we are in (we are in all branches independently), so no free will.
[QUOTE=Demx;43427013]The electron is distributed through space as a probability wave, it's position non exact, nor it's size. (see de broglie wavelength on wikipedia)[/quote] Not really. The wave function of an elementary particle may be spread out in space, but the particle itself is still localized. The wave function is a superposition of localized states, so an elementary particle itself has a definite size: pointlike. [QUOTE=Demx;43427013]This makes equations from classical mechanics (F=MA) moot.[/QUOTE] Also not really. Classical mechanics is reproduced in the limit of large quantum numbers, and specifically Newton's equations hold for expectation values of the corresponding quantum operators for the variables in classical equations even for small quantum numbers.
I just figured I could post this. [URL="http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2014/01/15/261716096/the-choice-is-yours-the-fate-of-free-will"]NPR[/URL] recently did a op-ed about it.
I feel that we're all living a pre-determined path of life, and that all choices were superficial and only an illusion. It's all happened before and it'll happen again, anyway.
i think we have free will if there was a machine that could read everyone's mind and could tell what everyone was doing so it basically could tell the future, if you know what the machine says you could change what you were going to do and all the machine would do is change it's outcome in the end, essentially it'd be cheating and changing it's answer every time you decide to do the opposite unless it says something vague like "you will keep changing your mind about this because you know about it" but then that's so vague anybody could tell you that it'd be like saying "you are going to die in an undetermined time" or "you will walk to that stop sign eventually"
Uhh I really could not follow that thought experiment.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;43570351]i think we have free will if there was a machine that could read everyone's mind and could tell what everyone was doing so it basically could tell the future, if you know what the machine says you could change what you were going to do and all the machine would do is change it's outcome in the end, essentially it'd be cheating and changing it's answer every time you decide to do the opposite unless it says something vague like "you will keep changing your mind about this because you know about it" but then that's so vague anybody could tell you that it'd be like saying "you are going to die in an undetermined time" or "you will walk to that stop sign eventually"[/QUOTE] It's trivial to build an automaton that can't be accurately predicted if it can observe the prediction before it acts. Free will isn't required at all. Have a look at the last time this was covered, starting here: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1333210&p=43168707&viewfull=1#post43168707[/url]
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;43570351]i think we have free will if there was a machine that could read everyone's mind and could tell what everyone was doing so it basically could tell the future, if you know what the machine says you could change what you were going to do and all the machine would do is change it's outcome in the end, essentially it'd be cheating and changing it's answer every time you decide to do the opposite unless it says something vague like "you will keep changing your mind about this because you know about it" but then that's so vague anybody could tell you that it'd be like saying "you are going to die in an undetermined time" or "you will walk to that stop sign eventually"[/QUOTE] Well no because uncertainty principle would prevent a machine from predicting the future (assuming hidden variables don't exist). The best a machine could do is predict the possibility of what you may do, which could be done with a level of accuracy. However this doesn't really allow for free will since the forces governed by uncertainty principle are still outside of your control. So while you may have a degree of unpredictability you aren't really free.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;43570351]if you know what the machine says you could change what you were going to do[/QUOTE] You are presupposing free will in your argument for free will. Why can't there be an equilibrium action that you know you will perform but you simply cannot stop yourself from doing?
The closest we can get to free will is being aware of our own thoughts and creating thoughts based upon those thoughts and repeating that cycle ad infinitum, but ultimately we have no control over those thoughts in the first place
I like to believe that determinism is compatible with free will. Here's how one philosopher put it: "A puppet is free, so long as he loves his strings"
[QUOTE=Nikita;43645456]I like to believe that determinism is compatible with free will. Here's how one philosopher put it: "A puppet is free, so long as he loves his strings"[/QUOTE] Wouldn't that just be an illusion of freedom though?
[QUOTE=Nikita;43645456]I like to believe that determinism is compatible with free will. Here's how one philosopher put it: "A puppet is free, so long as he loves his strings"[/QUOTE] Determinism and free will can hardly be compatible, since theyre pretty much opposed to each other
[QUOTE=Nikita;43645456]I like to believe that determinism is compatible with free will. Here's how one philosopher put it: "A puppet is free, so long as he loves his strings"[/QUOTE] If the mind is determined, then the love is simply another string.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43646500]Determinism and free will can hardly be compatible, since theyre pretty much opposed to each other[/QUOTE] Determinism needn't be the anti-thesis of free will. As I've said before in a majorly lengthy post, to say someone would do the same thing given the same circumstances is simply to say that given that someone wills to do A he will do A. It says nothing about the his freedom to express his Will A.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43648791]Determinism needn't be the anti-thesis of free will. As I've said before in a majorly lengthy post, to say someone would do the same thing given the same circumstances is simply to say that given that someone wills to do A he will do A. It says nothing about the his freedom to express his Will A.[/QUOTE] Okay but that isn't free will in any shape or form. I mean I cannot see any actual way in which free will could logically work. The brains wiring itself does not allow for free will in any real circumstance, and its also pretty obvious that people work on the basis experience. The way we remember things is also a good example of a lack of free will. You cannot just choose to remember something, otherwise nobody would forget things, memories can only be accessed if you are triggered into remembering it. So where is a persons free will there? And what causes a mans will to do something? Is it not what he has experienced in the past that triggers a will to do a certain thing? In that case again, where is the persons free will? I honestly cannot see any logical mechanism for free will to actually exist, as far as I am concerned it is purely an idea made up by religions to justify horrific punishments such as hell, since if a person doesn't have free will then how do you justify such a thing?
I am given choices and I can make a choice, I cannot make no choice because not making a choice is a choice of it's own. Effectively I am bound to make choices, but as with all humans factors will drive people to make certain decisions. But the choices are my own so therefore it is free-will.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649023]I am given choices and I can make a choice, I cannot make no choice because not making a choice is a choice of it's own. Effectively I am bound to make choices, but as with all humans factors will drive people to make certain decisions. But the choices are my own so therefore it is free-will.[/QUOTE] How is it free will? Your choice to do something was determined by a brain chemistry that was determined by input that results in an output. There's some sophisticated software in between the input and output which is your "choice" or more accurately, your action. There's very little chance for choice in the equation when you actually understand brain chemistry. Until there's a proven aspect of "quantum" elements to our brains and thought processes, and quantum mechanics itself is proven to be actually "random" will be there be any chance for choice to appear in our lives. Even with the element of randomness to somethings, it's still dubious that there really is free will as we'd like to imagine it.
Sounds like you're assuming the human conciousness is something other than the electro-chemical reactions in our brains. We can influence how our brains work and how others work. For example someone else can make you angry, but it is you alone who decides how to react to it. Do you punch them? That could get you into trouble, but it would feel good. And the end of the day our brains have the power to overcome raw emotion and to think rationally, that is our free will.
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