Is free will possible, or are we always affect by some level of determinism
354 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649187]Sounds like you're assuming the human conciousness is something other than the electro-chemical reactions in our brains.
We can influence how our brains work and how others work. For example someone else can make you angry, but it is you alone who decides how to react to it. Do you punch them? That could get you into trouble, but it would feel good.
And the end of the day our brains have the power to overcome raw emotion and to think rationally, that is our free will.[/QUOTE]
No they are exactly electro chemical reactions which is why you don't control them
How do you know that's free will and not just a chemical reaction telling you to "think rationally" due to a change in internal brain chemistry from some outside source effecting you?
You haven't made it clear how a chemical reaction in the brain is free will what so ever.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43649060]How is it free will? Your choice to do something was determined by a brain chemistry that was determined by input that results in an output.
There's some sophisticated software in between the input and output which is your "choice" or more accurately, your action. There's very little chance for choice in the equation when you actually understand brain chemistry.
Until there's a proven aspect of "quantum" elements to our brains and thought processes, and quantum mechanics itself is proven to be actually "random" will be there be any chance for choice to appear in our lives. Even with the element of randomness to somethings, it's still dubious that there really is free will as we'd like to imagine it.[/QUOTE]
Even with QM it isn't free will. You can't control what happens in QM, it is "uncertain" but still outside of your control. I'd seriously argue it offers nothing towards free will.
[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649187]Sounds like you're assuming the human conciousness is something other than the electro-chemical reactions in our brains.
We can influence how our brains work and how others work. For example someone else can make you angry, but it is you alone who decides how to react to it. Do you punch them? That could get you into trouble, but it would feel good.
And the end of the day our brains have the power to overcome raw emotion and to think rationally, that is our free will.[/QUOTE]
People only overcome emotion if they're conditioned to do so, like how religions condition people to act in a certain way, people wouldn't act the way religions make people act if said religions didn't condition them to do so in the first place.
Because why would the chemistry change? That's like putting chemicals in a beaker and yelling at them and saying "oh look the reaction changed because I was an outside stimulus even though yelling at the beaker has no effect on the chemicals themselves."
You process a person yelling at you- your body will fire off electrical signals accordingly to the sound, the sight, the smell, the pheromones, everything. You body will react instinctively at first, processing everything. But then your free will allows you to chose what to do next effectively altering the reaction.
You can't say the reaction is forcing you to take a certain course of action. There are times when I've wanted to hit people, and I mean I physically wanted to break them but it was the potential consequences of breaking the law that prevented me from doing so. I weighed up my options in my head and I overcame my emotions through free will.
I was still angry as fuck and I went and punched a locker instead.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649395]Because why would the chemistry change? That's like putting chemicals in a beaker and yelling at them and saying "oh look the reaction changed because I was an outside stimulus even though yelling at the beaker has no effect on the chemicals themselves."
You process a person yelling at you- your body will fire off electrical signals accordingly to the sound, the sight, the smell, the pheromones, everything. You body will react instinctively at first, processing everything. But then your free will allows you to chose what to do next effectively altering the reaction.
You can't say the reaction is forcing you to take a certain course of action. There are times when I've wanted to hit people, and I mean I physically wanted to break them but it was the potential consequences of breaking the law that prevented me from doing so. I weighed up my options in my head and I overcame my emotions through free will.
I was still angry as fuck and I went and punched a locker instead.[/QUOTE]
You're assuming emotions are the only things that effect how we act, far from it. As I've said previously experiences can very much effect how a person will act later in life. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what makes a person act in a certain way due to the enormous amount of variables, but for example if you abuse a child in its younger years you can have little doubt that such things will have long lasting effects in their later life and will condition them to react to situations in a certain way.
The reason you punched that locker rather than the person is because you have been conditioned to feel that violence towards others is bad, had you not had said conditioning its not entirely out of the question to say that you most likely would have punched them instead. You learn the way you act, but not necessarily "choose" it.
No I was raised and taught to fight back and hit those who were aggressive to me.
I rejected that doctrine. I am by no means a pacifist but I will pick and choose my fights based on the stakes involved.
I was never taught that violence was bad- if I'm honest I enjoy it. But I knew hitting that person could very well put me into serious trouble. I know that naturally our experiences shape the chemical reactions in our head but they do not control it, only influence it - you still make the choice though.
I know that fire hurts, I know it's hot, I know it will burn me if I put my hand in it - but I can still do it spontaneously if I choose to because I have the free will to do that. And instinct and reflexes will tell me it's bad and try to stop me from doing that but I can override those too.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649495]No I was raised and taught to fight back and hit those who were aggressive to me.
I rejected that doctrine. I am by no means a pacifist but I will pick and choose my fights based on the stakes involved.
I was never taught that violence was bad- if I'm honest I enjoy it. But I knew hitting that person could very well put me into serious trouble. I know that naturally our experiences shape the chemical reactions in our head but they do not control it, only influence it - you still make the choice though.
I know that fire hurts, I know it's hot, I know it will burn me if I put my hand in it - but I can still do it spontaneously if I choose to because I have the free will to do that. And instinct and reflexes will tell me it's bad and try to stop me from doing that but I can override those too.[/QUOTE]
Again, conditioning comes from more places than just your parents, many many factors will condition you into the way you act. In fact you flat out state that you know that hitting a person will get you in trouble, and right there is the conditioning, you know you will get into trouble if you do it and thus you don't. That is straight up mental conditioning, you've been conditioned to understand that violence will get you in trouble and thus you don't.
If you chose to stick your hand in fire it would be because something in your brain told you to do it, it doesn't mean you have free will. The amount of variables that control the way we act is huge thus it gives the impression of free will, but really can you honestly say you do? Do you honestly choose the thoughts you have or do they just pop into your head? Most people notice that they just pop into your head, theres no real prior choice to those thoughts but you don't notice most of the time. Or when you remember something did you chose to remember it? No obviously not otherwise nobody would forget anything, again another example of how we have no actual free will.
That's not conditioning, that's being told of the consequences. Whether I accept those consequences or not is my choice.
If and by gods good grace I have kids one day and they were threatened I would kill to protect them if necessary and I would fully expect and accept the consequences for doing so. But I really don't fancy ruining my life this early on by fighting some kid (who obviously had no free will so he can hold no blame for harassing me because it was entirely the way he was raised and he is a living robot driven by a chemical reaction and conditioning) and putting him into hospital and getting myself a criminal record.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649395]Because why would the chemistry change? That's like putting chemicals in a beaker and yelling at them and saying "oh look the reaction changed because I was an outside stimulus even though yelling at the beaker has no effect on the chemicals themselves."
You process a person yelling at you- your body will fire off electrical signals accordingly to the sound, the sight, the smell, the pheromones, everything. You body will react instinctively at first, processing everything. But then your free will allows you to chose what to do next effectively altering the reaction.
You can't say the reaction is forcing you to take a certain course of action. There are times when I've wanted to hit people, and I mean I physically wanted to break them but it was the potential consequences of breaking the law that prevented me from doing so. I weighed up my options in my head and I overcame my emotions through free will.
I was still angry as fuck and I went and punched a locker instead.[/QUOTE]
I don't see where free will comes into this and you haven't explained that. Everything you're using to say "this is free will" is nothing more than an aspect of brain chemistry. Just because you have a moment of "oh shit I don't want to do this" doesn't make it any more free will. How is that free will? How are you saying that is free will when it is just the next step in the chain of reactions occuring inside you. You are not telling them to do anything. You said it yourself. You have a beaker of chemicals and you're yelling at them to change. They never will. You have no ability to change those chemicals. Your brain does. Your brain changes them based on neurons firing off because sodium charged neurons are told to fire by another chemical change that is based on the input you just received.
I don't see any place where you go "oh well I'm going to do this instead of what my brain is able to do". If you are angry, you cannot turn that off. If you are sad, you cannot turn that off. Those situations in chemistry will either resolve themselves, or they won't. Depending on the brain chemistry of the person. Do you think a person has the ability to "snap out" or be "logical" through clinical depression(An imbalance of brain chemicals)?
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649590]That's not conditioning, that's being told of the consequences. Whether I accept those consequences or not is my choice.
If and by gods good grace I have kids one day and they were threatened I would kill to protect them if necessary and I would fully expect and accept the consequences for doing so. But I really don't fancy ruining my life this early on by fighting some kid (who obviously had no free will so he can hold no blame for harassing me because it was entirely the way he was raised and he is a living robot driven by a chemical reaction and conditioning) and putting him into hospital and getting myself a criminal record.[/QUOTE]
what element of this is free will
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649590]That's not conditioning, that's being told of the consequences. Whether I accept those consequences or not is my choice.
If and by gods good grace I have kids one day and they were threatened I would kill to protect them if necessary and I would fully expect and accept the consequences for doing so. But I really don't fancy ruining my life this early on by fighting some kid (who obviously had no free will so he can hold no blame for harassing me because it was entirely the way he was raised and he is a living robot driven by a chemical reaction and conditioning) and putting him into hospital and getting myself a criminal record.[/QUOTE]
Yes and knowing the consequences will either condition you not to do something, or not affect you, but either way it doesn't mean you have free will, you will act on the basis of many many variables and experiences that may lead you to heed the warning or not, but it doesn't mean it was a choice.
Thats not to say you shouldn't punish a child, punishment used to condition people into acting in a certain way and depending on circumstances they'll either end up following what they're conditioned to do or not. I absolutely acknowledge that consequences are vital to getting people to act properly, but that again doesn't mean a person has free will. The real question here is, what do you see punishment as? Do you see it as a way of correcting certain behaviors, or do you see it as revenge. If it is for correcting behavior then a lack of free will shouldn't affect it, since the purpose is all the same. However if you see it as revenge then a lack of free will does become a problem for a person with such an outlook, since how do you justify revenge if the person doesn't have free will?
Free will is as much an illusion as love is. You can't have my love, so hands off my free will.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649688]Free will is as much an illusion as love is. You can't have my love, so hands off my free will.[/QUOTE]
Except love and free will aren't comparable. Love is an actual observable chemical reaction within the brain, free will on the other hand has no working physical explanation, no real science supports it even down to the atomic and sub atomic levels.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43649625]what element of this is free will[/QUOTE]
Why are you thinking now, if everything is simply inputs and outputs to a chemical reaction? Why is there a voice in your head- a voice that allows you to rationalise and think and make decisions based on your thoughts?
If everything is predetermined by a chemical reaction why do we have thoughts, why do we have conciousness, what is the purpose of it? It serves none- the decision is already made for us according to you so why does it even occur?
I can choose to stop posting in this thread any time I like, it'll have no consequences for me, I'll just go and do something else. There are no pros or cons to it, it is something I can do to spend time which would otherwise be spent procrastinating. I'm still posting here because I choose to, not because I want to- I'm already bored now and there are other things that could entertain me more.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43649703]Except love and free will aren't comparable. Love is an actual observable chemical reaction within the brain, free will on the other hand has no working physical explanation, no real science supports it even down to the atomic and sub atomic levels.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is a thing, just like the electrons shooting in your brain is a thing.
I am talking about the phenomenology.
If free will is an illusion, then it is good one. Love as such, the feeling of it, like the feeling of choice, must too be an illusion. Since that is poppy-cock in any functioning social scenario, I reject the illusory aspect of it by defining free will and love as not the functional tickings.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649759]Why are you thinking now, if everything is simply inputs and outputs to a chemical reaction? Why is there a voice in your head- a voice that allows you to rationalise and think and make decisions based on your thoughts?
If everything is predetermined by a chemical reaction why do we have thoughts, why do we have conciousness, what is the purpose of it? It serves none- the decision is already made for us according to you so why does it even occur?
I can choose to stop posting in this thread any time I like, it'll have no consequences for me, I'll just go and do something else. There are no pros or cons to it, it is something I can do to spend time which would otherwise be spent procrastinating. I'm still posting here because I choose to, not because I want to- I'm already bored now and there are other things that could entertain me more.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, the phenomenological experience is key to the existence of what we want to call free will.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649759]Why are you thinking now, if everything is simply inputs and outputs to a chemical reaction? Why is there a voice in your head- a voice that allows you to rationalise and think and make decisions based on your thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Because I have inputs and my software is telling me to output so I am outputting? That simple. Conciousness is either an illusion, or it is a side effect of our brains, it is not the dominating force though as far as we can tell.
[QUOTE]If everything is predetermined by a chemical reaction why do we have thoughts, why do we have conciousness, what is the purpose of it? It serves none- the decision is already made for us according to you so why does it even occur?[/QUOTE]
This is like an emotional tantrum 'NO IT CAN'T BE LIKE THAT'. Well it is. It doesn't matter that it serves no purpose. Why does everything need a purpose? Something happens, it occurs, why are you saying that if it doesn't matter it shouldn't happen? I'm confused by this.
[QUOTE]I can choose to stop posting in this thread any time I like, it'll have no consequences for me, I'll just go and do something else. There are no pros or cons to it, it is something I can do to spend time which would otherwise be spent procrastinating. I'm still posting here because I choose to, not because I want to- I'm already bored now and there are other things that could entertain me more.[/QUOTE]
Is it a choice or is it a result of your brain chemistry telling you you don't want to do that anymore? Are you the puppet or are you the strings? And yet you are here telling me you want to be here whilst you proclaim you don't? I don't see where your free will is.
Love is an experience created by the brain. Free will is the idea that you control and are accountable for your actions. Love may arise from something beyond your control, but the fact that you feel love for certain things or people isn't really disputable.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649762]. Since that is poppy-cock in any functioning social scenario, I reject the illusory aspect of it by defining free will and love as not the functional tickings.
[/QUOTE]
what exactly do you mean by this
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649762]Yes, it is a thing, just like the electrons shooting in your brain is a thing.
I am talking about the phenomenology.
If free will is an illusion, then it is good one. Love as such, the feeling of it, like the feeling of choice, must too be an illusion. Since that is poppy-cock in any functioning social scenario, I reject the illusory aspect of it by defining free will and love as not the functional tickings.
[/QUOTE]
Please give me an actual functional way in which free will can exist, considering both newtonian physics and quantum physics are both deterministic and outside of any real control.
Phenomenology proves absolutely nothing in regards to free will.
[QUOTE=Falubii;43649792]Love is an experience created by the brain. Free will is the idea that you control and are accountable for your actions. Love may arise from something beyond your control, but the fact that you feel love for certain things or people isn't really disputable.[/QUOTE]
Neither is the fact that you feel that you are making a choice. You will certain things, which are willed upon you. Those things now make up YOU, and it is YOUR WILL. To not have free will is to not be able to act or otherwise be impeded in acting and succeeding.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649826]Neither is the fact that you feel that you are making a choice. You will certain things, which are willed upon you. Those things now make up YOU, and it is YOUR WILL. To not have free will is to not be able to act or otherwise be impeded in acting and succeeding.[/QUOTE]
We're already making computers that can make choices, but that doesn't mean the computer has free will, its just making decisions on the basis of what it has learned. The human brain does the same thing but on a far far more complex scale, taking numerous variables into account with every decision.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43649818]Please give me an actual functional way in which free will can exist, considering both newtonian physics and quantum physics are both deterministic and outside of any real control.
Phenomenology proves absolutely nothing in regards to free will.[/QUOTE]
You are attacking shadows my friend. I am not saying we aren't determined. I am just saying that doesn't matter because that isn't what should be referred to when talking about free will. An agent is simply a construct which expresses various things defined by what we call a will. In so far as that will is un-impeded and can act as a social agent then his will is free.
Causal forces make you, causal forces give you your will, and you express that will. When that will becomes impeded by other agents or forces, then stops being free.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43649851]We're already making computers that can make choices, but that doesn't mean the computer has free will, its just making decisions on the basis of what it has learned. The human brain does the same thing but on a far far more complex scale, taking numerous variables into account with every decision.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, because the computer doesn't have the phenomenon of choice making. At least not yet.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
ie) it is not an agent
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649826]Neither is the fact that you feel that you are making a choice. You will certain things, which are willed upon you. Those things now make up YOU, and it is YOUR WILL. To not have free will is to not be able to act or otherwise be impeded in acting and succeeding.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you feel you're making a choice, but that doesn't make it so. To be totally honest if you can't see the issues with free will then we must not be defining it in the same way, you're in denial, or you have a warped logic and will probably never understand. I can also appreciate that me saying this probably won't change your mind at all, but hey, that's not really your fault I suppose.
Your definition of free will is just a word soup...
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649863]You are attacking shadows my friend. I am not saying we aren't determined. I am just saying that doesn't matter because that isn't what should be referred to when talking about free will. An agent is simply a construct which expresses various things defined by what we call a will. In so far as that will is un-impeded and can act as a social agent then his will is free.
Causal forces make you, causal forces give you your will, and you express that will. When that will becomes impeded by other agents or forces, then stops being free.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
Exactly, because the computer doesn't have the phenomenon of choice making. At least not yet.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
ie) it is not an agent[/QUOTE]
So you agree that free will in the way pretty much everyone describes it can't exist?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43649863]You are attacking shadows my friend. I am not saying we aren't determined. I am just saying that doesn't matter because that isn't what should be referred to when talking about free will. An agent is simply a construct which expresses various things defined by what we call a will. In so far as that will is un-impeded and can act as a social agent then his will is free.
Causal forces make you, causal forces give you your will, and you express that will. When that will becomes impeded by other agents or forces, then stops being free.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
Exactly, because the computer doesn't have the phenomenon of choice making. At least not yet.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
ie) it is not an agent[/QUOTE]
If things are determined then there isn't free will, to have free will would mean that YOU were determining what was happening, not the world around you.
As for the computer, the computer does make choices the same as a person would, its making those choices on the basis of what it has learned, same as a human does. It does not however have free will and its choices will be determined by what it has learned and its decision will not deviate from that.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43649779]Is it a choice or is it a result of your brain chemistry telling you you don't want to do that anymore? Are you the puppet or are you the strings? And yet you are here telling me you want to be here whilst you proclaim you don't? I don't see where your free will is.[/QUOTE]
My brain is telling me this is boring. It's also wanting me to call you a slew of offensive names for no real actual reason. It's also telling me that I'm hungry and need to piss. I'm sitting here overriding my need to piss and writing up this post in this thread after which I will go piss. I'm making the concious decision to hold off.
If the conciousness is just a by-product of the brain's chemical reaction it's kind of a stupid one, it seems like wasted energy, and why would it make you think you have a choice when you don't? I mean it seems like the reaction is effectively trying to control you by saying "you're in control" and then pulling the strings to make you feel in control when the reaction itself is in control.
But the reaction itself has no conciousness so it has no reason to do these things. It has no life or death, it doesn't have motives.
Instinct controls the brain at the base level as it does for all mammals, it's our concious though that takes it further and gives us the freedom to make our own choices.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649903]My brain is telling me this is boring. It's also wanting me to call you a slew of offensive names for no real actual reason. It's also telling me that I'm hungry and need to piss. I'm sitting here overriding my need to piss and writing up this post in this thread after which I will go piss. I'm making the concious decision to hold off.
If the conciousness is just a by-product of the brain's chemical reaction it's kind of a stupid one, it seems like wasted energy, and why would it make you think you have a choice when you don't? I mean it seems like the reaction is effectively trying to control you by saying "you're in control" and then pulling the strings to make you feel in control when the reaction itself is in control.
But the reaction itself has no conciousness so it has no reason to do these things. It has no life or death, it doesn't have motives.
Instinct controls the brain at the base level as it does for all mammals, it's our concious though that takes it further and gives us the freedom to make our own choices.[/QUOTE]
All of the things your brain is telling you you are not in control of. Your input will determine your output. What is so hard to understand about this? Why does it offend you so much you want to insult and flame me for my opinion?
It doesn't matter how "wasted" it may be. It may have had an evolutionary advantage at some point to have the ability to be conscious. It doesn't mean we make choices . It honestly doesn't matter as we exist in a world that is deterministic.
You are still just telling me we make choices. But HOW do we make those? How do we influence chemical reactions that create us? How do you yell at a beaker of chemicals to do something so loud it does something?
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649903]My brain is telling me this is boring. It's also wanting me to call you a slew of offensive names for no real actual reason. It's also telling me that I'm hungry and need to piss. I'm sitting here overriding my need to piss and writing up this post in this thread after which I will go piss. I'm making the concious decision to hold off.
If the conciousness is just a by-product of the brain's chemical reaction it's kind of a stupid one, it seems like wasted energy, and why would it make you think you have a choice when you don't? I mean it seems like the reaction is effectively trying to control you by saying "you're in control" and then pulling the strings to make you feel in control when the reaction itself is in control.
But the reaction itself has no conciousness so it has no reason to do these things. It has no life or death, it doesn't have motives.
Instinct controls the brain at the base level as it does for all mammals, it's our concious though that takes it further and gives us the freedom to make our own choices.[/QUOTE]
Just because the higher brain is complex doesn't men's free will makes sense. It's advantageous to have the sensation of consciousness because we can analyze and work out much more complex tasks. Consciousness is probably just the way that this higher brain activity manifests itself. Also, do you really think animals have no level of consciousness and are all instinct?
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;43649903]My brain is telling me this is boring. It's also wanting me to call you a slew of offensive names for no real actual reason. It's also telling me that I'm hungry and need to piss. I'm sitting here overriding my need to piss and writing up this post in this thread after which I will go piss. I'm making the concious decision to hold off.
If the conciousness is just a by-product of the brain's chemical reaction it's kind of a stupid one, it seems like wasted energy, and why would it make you think you have a choice when you don't? I mean it seems like the reaction is effectively trying to control you by saying "you're in control" and then pulling the strings to make you feel in control when the reaction itself is in control.
But the reaction itself has no conciousness so it has no reason to do these things. It has no life or death, it doesn't have motives.
Instinct controls the brain at the base level as it does for all mammals, it's our concious though that takes it further and gives us the freedom to make our own choices.[/QUOTE]
No what separates us from animals is increased learning ability and thus makes us less reliant on instinct. You can condition animals to go against their instinct just as you can condition a human to though so we aren't massively different from other animals.
As for consciousness, that is another discussion entirely, but there is no reason to believe it is anything outside of the brain functioning as is does. Energy isn't being wasted on producing consciousness as consciousness is just your brain performing its functions, or at least thats what I see as being most likely any way, its a subject that nobody has really settled.
[QUOTE=Falubii;43649882]Yeah, you feel you're making a choice, but that doesn't make it so. To be totally honest if you can't see the issues with free will then we must not be defining it in the same way, you're in denial, or you have a warped logic and will probably never understand. I can also appreciate that me saying this probably won't change your mind at all, but hey, that's not really your fault I suppose.[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid it's quite the opposite. I've taken far too many classes about this for you to pass me off as someone who can't comprehend the problems with determinism. I comprehend them, and what I say to you is that you need to look up the term 'Free-will compatabilist'. Yes, our definitions are different because I am not struggling against denial, I fully admit that I am likely a causal being which is determined. The thing is, that doesn't matter in the slightest because free will is something descriptive of the social phenomenon that humans call autonomy, the ability to do what one wills.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43649884]Your definition of free will is just a word soup...[/QUOTE]
It isn't and let me tell you why:
Free will is the ability to do what one wills in a given situation.
Given the same situation, my will is the same.
An agent is someone who exercises a will.
An agent is only not free when the expression of his will is directly impeded by another agent, or by physical circumstances.
A few examples of when people do and do not have free will;
I pull a gun out and shoot a man because I hate his guts. I have free will.
I pull a gun out because a man rushes me and he forcibly pushes the gun to his gut and pulls the trigger. My will wasn't free, my action was not my own.
I go to rob a bank, I enter according to my will, as I do so an attendant hits the panic button which locks the doors. As soon as I realize that I cannot leave, even though my will dictates that I do, my free will is being infringed.
What would an ultimate removal of free will look like?
Well my actions would take into no account the things which I will. That is to say that my muscles are forced to do A whether or not I want to in fact do B. Imagine a robotic exo-skeleton forcing my every move, while inside, the conglomeration of causality that I call my brain is being violated, the things that I want do not happen. The I am speaking of is simply the collection of willed actions in context produced by the causal agents of determinism.
All in all, scroll back and read my essay I posted before calling me slow or a producer of word soup.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Falubii;43649889]So you agree that free will in the way pretty much everyone describes it can't exist?[/QUOTE]
How does everyone describe free will?
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43649894]If things are determined then there isn't free will, to have free will would mean that YOU were determining what was happening, not the world around you.
As for the computer, the computer does make choices the same as a person would, its making those choices on the basis of what it has learned, same as a human does. It does not however have free will and its choices will be determined by what it has learned and its decision will not deviate from that.[/QUOTE]
What is ME if not a package constructed by causal agents. A package which now has something commonly refered to by everyone as a "Will". A set of actions given circumstance.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43650011]I'm afraid it's quite the opposite. I've taken far too many classes about this for you to pass me off as someone who can't comprehend the problems with determinism. I comprehend them, and what I say to you is that you need to look up the term 'Free-will compatabilist'. Yes, our definitions are different because I am not struggling against denial, I fully admit that I am likely a causal being which is determined. The thing is, that doesn't matter in the slightest because free will is something descriptive of the social phenomenon that humans call autonomy, the ability to do what one wills.
It isn't and let me tell you why:
Free will is the ability to do what one wills in a given situation.
Given the same situation, my will is the same.
An agent is someone who exercises a will.
An agent is only not free when the expression of his will is directly impeded by another agent, or by physical circumstances.
A few examples of when people do and do not have free will;
I pull a gun out and shoot a man because I hate his guts. I have free will.
I pull a gun out because a man rushes me and he forcibly pushes the gun to his gut and pulls the trigger. My will wasn't free, my action was not my own.
I go to rob a bank, I enter according to my will, as I do so an attendant hits the panic button which locks the doors. As soon as I realize that I cannot leave, even though my will dictates that I do, my free will is being infringed.
What would an ultimate removal of free will look like?
Well my actions would take into no account the things which I will. That is to say that my muscles are forced to do A whether or not I want to in fact do B. Imagine a robotic exo-skeleton forcing my every move, while inside, the conglomeration of causality that I call my brain is being violated, the things that I want do not happen. The I am speaking of is simply the collection of willed actions in context produced by the causal agents of determinism.
All in all, scroll back and read my essay I posted before calling me slow or a producer of word soup.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
How does everyone describe free will?[/QUOTE]
so you're saying experiencing the experience of your body going through deterministic actions is free will when it's something you choose to do but a reaction is just a reaction and not something you control? But where do you draw the line on cause and effect to the point where your own decision is originating in just itself in a deterministic world like we live in? What is a reaction and what is an action? You have just simply moved an arbitrary line on what your "reaction" and "actions" are based on nothing.
I don't see it
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