The Moron's Guide To Transhumanism, Human Enhancement And Why It's Fucking Awesome.

[catbarf]

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32132679]I have nothing against people using augments to be better at their field of work. However, I don't think people should be able to just augment themselves with whatever they want so they can [i]enter[/i] a field of work.

An astrophysicist should have to prove his abilities to perform the job, then he can be augmented to do math better. Some punkass who didn't pay attention in math class shouldn't be able to augment themselves and become an astrophysicist. A simple regulation like that, proving you can do the job before being augmented, would keep a massive gap from being produced between the rich and everyone else.[/QUOTE]

What makes you think augmentation would completely replace skills? Why wouldn't an augmented mathematician be better than an augmented average joe?

And if they would actually be equal, if 'some punkass' can really become equivalent in ability to a similarly-augmented astrophysicist, why should the astrophysicist be inexplicably favored if he has nothing of value over the other guy?

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32135031]Why are you so damn hostile? I would encourage you to read my entire post before flipping the fuck out when you see the words "no practical benefit" and "science" in the same sentence.

Where did I say that the field of biology is entirely useless? I simply pointed out that not all [I]scientific discoveries are useful on a practical level.[/I]

Instead of actually addressing my point, you choose to paint me as being anti-science. Science has [B]done enormously more good than bad[/B], but that does [B]not[/B] somehow remove it from the blame of having created harmful technologies as well.

"Art is made because artists desire to make art". Yes, I agree. That doesn't change the fact that life would be [B]extremely fucking boring if there is no entertainment, no art, and no music.[/B]

Science [I]cannot[/I] be "superior" to art because they are used for [I]totally different purposes.[/I]

Science makes our lives easier; art gives us reasons to actually live. That's all I can say.

I'm probably done debating with you since you choose to build enormous straw-man arguments and then freak out because I have a few minor qualms about science.[/QUOTE]

Ignoring that I just explained that art is a byproduct of our hectic evolution and therefor will always be around, and ignoring that the point is not to argue the fine quibbles of the pros and cons of science but to point out it's infinite practical value for both solving all problems and the singular problems you complain about, and ignoring that science does not just make our lives easier, it makes life possible for hundreds of millions of the very people you were complaining we didn't care enough about, yes. You are correct.

[catbarf]

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32134768]I think too many people are jumping the gun because it'd be cool as shit. Would I like super strong bionic arms? Fuck yeah I would. However, it's an issue far more complex than most people are making it out to be.[/QUOTE]

Luddite-esque statements about who should and shouldn't be allowed to augment themselves because you think it 'isn't right' are every bit as vapid as the 'woo robot arms' comments.

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=catbarf;32135272]What makes you think augmentation would completely replace skills? Why wouldn't an augmented mathematician be better than an augmented average joe?

And if they would actually be equal, if 'some punkass' can really become equivalent in ability to a similarly-augmented astrophysicist, why should the astrophysicist be inexplicably favored if he has nothing of value over the other guy?[/QUOTE]

And if 'some punkass' decides to have his brain moulded into something superior than that of the astrophysicist, what would be the problem?

[editline]5th September 2011[/editline]

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32134768]I think too many people are jumping the gun because it'd be cool as shit. Would I like super strong bionic arms? Fuck yeah I would. However, it's an issue far more complex than most people are making it out to be.

Honestly, I think genetic modification is a much more realistic means of advancing the human race. Would robot arms be cool? Sure. But growing arms from your own genetic material with modified genes that enhance muscle development is probably what is going to happen. Who needs bionic arms when you can just grow new better arms? I mean, you wouldn't have to worry about the body rejecting it because it'd be made from your own genetic material. It wouldn't take long to learn how to use the new ones since they'd be identical neurologically to the old ones.

It wouldn't be as cool looking but it's certainly more realistic.[/QUOTE]

Whichever comes first my friend.

[Z3r0747]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;32135320]Ignoring that I just explained that art is a byproduct of our hectic evolution and therefor will always be around, and ignoring that the point is not to argue the fine quibbles of the pros and cons of science but to point out it's infinite practical value for both solving all problems and the singular problems you complain about, and ignoring that science does not just make our lives easier, it makes life possible for hundreds of millions of the very people you were complaining we didn't care enough about, yes. You are correct.[/QUOTE]

Therefore then, art won't necessarily always be around if we take command of our own evolution with transhumanism and genetic modifications. I would assume it would eventually be "bred out" over a sufficiently long period of time. And yes, I [I]do [/I]have a problem with that.

And by the way, the point was never to point out the practical value of science, it was to show that science and mathematics were not the only important things in life.

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32135621]Therefore then, art won't necessarily always be around if we take command of our own evolution with transhumanism and genetic modifications. I would assume it would eventually be "bred out" over a sufficiently long period of time. And yes, I [I]do [/I]have a problem with that.

And by the way, the point was never to point out the practical value of science, it was to show that science and mathematics were not the only important things in life.[/QUOTE]

Why the hell would art be bred out of humanity?

Why would anyone even do that?

[JohnnyMo]

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;32129626]Our bodies are irreplaceable. Have you seen how clumsy the most modern robotics are?[/QUOTE]

Um, clumsy? The modern light bulb was invented less than 200 years ago, and now we have industries like car manufacturing that are almost entirely roboticized and you call robotics clumsy?

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32135621]Therefore then, art won't necessarily always be around if we take command of our own evolution with transhumanism and genetic modifications. I would assume it would eventually be "bred out" over a sufficiently long period of time. And yes, I [I]do [/I]have a problem with that.

And by the way, the point was never to point out the practical value of science, it was to show that science and mathematics were not the only important things in life.[/QUOTE]

Art would not just disappear, if anything it would increase as more people would be able to express their feelings through various arts

[SCopE5000]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;32135347]And if 'some punkass' decides to have his brain moulded into something superior than that of the astrophysicist, what would be the problem?
[/QUOTE]

Everything would be wrong with that.

Let me guess, you just finished Deus Ex and you're telling yourself that you wouldn't abuse the power of augmentations if you had it?

Bullshit. You'd lord around destroying 'bad' people and exerting your own judgement on whoever crossed your path. You called me a 'fool' for merely offering you an alternative perspective I hate to see what you'd do if anyone disagreed with you in person.

[editline]5th September 2011[/editline]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32134691]Who are you to say who does and does not deserve something?[/QUOTE]

Because if you work hard you get promoted, generally.

You're basically saying, why not let everyone be as lazy as they like and get instantly promoted to CEO.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32136024]Everything would be wrong with that.

Let me guess, you just finished Deus Ex and you're telling yourself that you wouldn't abuse the power of augmentations if you had it?

Bullshit. You'd lord around destroying 'bad' people and exerting your own judgement on whoever crossed your path. You called me a 'fool' for merely offering you an alternative perspective I hate to see what you'd do if anyone disagreed with you in person.

[editline]5th September 2011[/editline]

Because if you work hard you get promoted, generally.

You're basically saying, why not let everyone be as lazy as they like and get instantly promoted to CEO.[/QUOTE]

You mean what the "stronger" people of today are already doing? Augmentation would help to prevent that by equalling everyone out.

[JohnnyMo]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136073]You mean what the "stronger" people of today are already doing? Augmentation would help to prevent that by equalling everyone out.[/QUOTE]

Uh, the "stronger" people today are the people with money and political power and if the world suddenly became Deus Ex with the political structure as it is now, equalling everyone out is exactly the opposite of what would happen.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32136024]Everything would be wrong with that.

Let me guess, you just finished Deus Ex and you're telling yourself that you wouldn't abuse the power of augmentations if you had it?

Bullshit. You'd lord around destroying 'bad' people and exerting your own judgement on whoever crossed your path. You called me a 'fool' for merely offering you an alternative perspective I hate to see what you'd do if anyone disagreed with you in person.

[editline]5th September 2011[/editline]

Because if you work hard you get promoted, generally.

You're basically saying, why not let everyone be as lazy as they like and get instantly promoted to CEO.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying we should allow people the chance to build themselves a better them.

[SCopE5000]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136073]You mean what the "stronger" people of today are already doing? Augmentation would help to prevent that by equalling everyone out.[/QUOTE]

Define "Stronger" people?

People who have the determination and drive to actually try hard to attain the things they desire, perhaps it's them excelling at their job due to pure drive and hard work, or perhaps put their whole wellbeing at risk to start a business?

They deserve to be ahead because they worked for it. Much like people who work for augmentations deserve them more than someone who blames their misfortune on everyone else.

If you were to say "Wah Wah I'm weak" - That's your choice to decide you are weak, you live your life and make your own choices, no one else can do that for you.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;32136169]Uh, the "stronger" people today are the people with money and political power and if the world suddenly became Deus Ex with the political structure as it is now, equalling everyone out is exactly the opposite of what would happen.[/QUOTE]

Probably true, but then again I wouldn't really use Deus Ex as much of a model of what transhumanism could achieve.

[Z3r0747]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32135879]Art would not just disappear, if anything it would increase as more people would be able to express their feelings through various arts[/QUOTE]

That's a valid point, but I think it depends on the extent of transhumanism. I just think it's possible that since society would basically become so technologically and scientifically oriented that the ones who aren't "actively contributing" to the progression of the species (by science) would be frowned upon. So perhaps it wouldn't disappear completely; it just wouldn't be as common.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32136212]Define "Stronger" people?

People who have the determination and drive to actually try hard to attain the things they desire, perhaps it's them excelling at their job due to pure drive and hard work, or perhaps put their whole wellbeing at risk to start a business?

They deserve to be ahead because they worked for it. Much like people who work for augmentations deserve them more than someone who blames their misfortune on everyone else.

If you were to say "Wah Wah I'm weak" - That's your choice to decide you are weak, you live your life and make your own choices, no one else can do that for you.[/QUOTE]

Surely augmentation would give people the chance to truly achieve what they want?

[SCopE5000]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136193]I'm saying we should allow people the chance to build themselves a better them.[/QUOTE]

I think that sort of development starts on the inside and takes a long time and a lot of hard work on behalf of the person (most aren't strong enough to continue).

You give a bullied kid augs to make him stronger and he'll fuck people up.

You give a bullied kid the right sort of mental help, he'll flourish.

[Z3r0747]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136308]Surely augmentation would give people the chance to truly achieve what they want?[/QUOTE]

Sure, if you're rich as fuck. I don't see any reason why the average joe would have access to this technology in the first place.

Maybe people should stop being lazy as fuck and actually put effort into what they want to achieve. But then again I suppose it's up to the individual if they want to take the easy path or the hard path.

[SCopE5000]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136308]Surely augmentation would give people the chance to truly achieve what they want?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but if you're not fulfilling your natural potential by sheer effort against all odds, I don't think there's much point in augs.

Give a hardworking firefighter watergun arms cause he's held a heavy hose for years. Don't give that to a guy who's sat on the sofa watching tv and receiving dole payments for years, because it doesn't make sense.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32136392]Sure, if you're rich as fuck. I don't see any reason why the average joe would have access to this technology in the first place.

Maybe people should stop being lazy as fuck and actually put effort into what they want to achieve. But then again I suppose it's up to the individual if they want to take the easy path or the hard path.[/QUOTE]

Environmental factors can also impact a persons ability to succeed, like how a person who is in an upper class environment is morel likely to succeed than that of a person in a lower class environment. Of course my ideals here are more rooted in the realms of socialism to be honest.

[Z3r0747]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136447]Environmental factors can also impact a persons ability to succeed, like how a person who is in an upper class environment is morel likely to succeed than that of a person in a lower class environment. Of course my ideals here are more rooted in the realms of socialism to be honest.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the keywords are "more likely" though. Being born into a poor home doesn't mean you're doomed for the beginning.

I'm also surprised at how many people just assume that this stuff (brain augments in particular) would work to begin with.

We don't even know how the brain works now (where thoughts originate from, subjective experience, etc.) despite all the research into neuroscience. I'm not even sure if brain augmentations are going to be realistic or possible to be honest; especially in the areas like creativity, because even now you can't really [i]teach[/i] someone to be creative.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32136564]Yeah, the keywords are "more likely" though. Being born into a poor home doesn't mean you're doomed for the beginning.

I'm also surprised at how many people just assume that this stuff (brain augments in particular) would work to begin with.

We don't even know how the brain works now (where thoughts originate from, subjective experience, etc.) despite all the research into neuroscience. I'm not even sure if brain augmentations are going to be realistic or possible to be honest; especially in the areas like creativity, because even now you can't really [i]teach[/i] someone to be creative.[/QUOTE]

It's all hypothetical ethics really.

[JohnnyMo]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136224]Probably true, but then again I wouldn't really use Deus Ex as much of a model of what transhumanism could achieve.[/QUOTE]

That was completely beside the point though.

[SCopE5000]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136447]Environmental factors can also impact a persons ability to succeed, like how a person who is in an upper class environment is morel likely to succeed than that of a person in a lower class environment. Of course my ideals here are more rooted in the realms of socialism to be honest.[/QUOTE]

If you want to become rich, you strive for that and do everything you can over several months, to get richer.

If you want to become stronger, you go to the gym and workout for months to get stronger.

Why should shortcuts be granted to people who can't be bothered to work hard for the things they want?

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;32136641]That was completely beside the point though.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, in response to the former point, I do believe that the economic situation regarding transhumanism would eventually equal out as surgery becomes less risky and parts become easier to produce and allow people of poorer backgrounds access to enhancement.

[MaverickIB]

As I said, success today can be dependent on economic status, not natural ability. In the right setting, anyone can become anything. Most people aren't presented the opportunities though. The smartest kid in the world would still be unsuccessful if he was raised in an economic environment where opportunities aren't presented.

There is a flipside though. Often, people who say they can't do something are saying that because they are lazy. I went to a poor as dirt school. It was so shitty, it closed down my junior year because a wall collapsed. Despite being a school where opportunities were few and far between, the kids who put forth the effort and busted their ass ended up on the path to success. A few went to schools like MIT and Yale. Most kids were just lazy, blaming everything on their economic status. They literally said "I'm poor and the school is poor, I can't be successful."

In a nutshell, success is dependent on an individual's drive. Sure, some people are in such shit areas where they can't get out no matter how hard they try. However, that's much more rare than people like to believe. The American success story of rags to riches still exists, it's just an incredibly difficult road and doesn't happen overnight. Anyone who thinks they need to be augmented in order to be successful is just in denial. The real problem is themselves. To satisfy their wishes and augment them would be immoral, as you'd be taking their money knowing damn well that it wouldn't change a thing.

Augmentation like that would change nothing. If you think it'd give people more opportunities, you're sadly mistaken. It needs to be used for people who have already achieved the peak of their success, but strive for more.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32136734]As I said, success today can be dependent on economic status, not natural ability. In the right setting, anyone can become anything. Most people aren't presented the opportunities though. The smartest kid in the world would still be unsuccessful if he was raised in an economic environment where opportunities aren't presented.

There is a flipside though. Often, people who say they can't do something are saying that because they are lazy. I went to a poor as dirt school. It was so shitty, it closed down my junior year because a wall collapsed. Despite being a school where opportunities were few and far between, the kids who put forth the effort and busted their ass ended up on the path to success. A few went to schools like MIT and Yale. Most kids were just lazy, blaming everything on their economic status. They literally said "I'm poor and the school is poor, I can't be successful."

In a nutshell, success is dependent on an individual's drive. Sure, some people are in such shit areas where they can't get out no matter how hard they try. However, that's much more rare than people like to believe. The American success story of rags to riches still exists, it's just an incredibly difficult road and doesn't happen overnight. Anyone who thinks they need to be augmented in order to be successful is just in denial. The real problem is themselves. To satisfy their wishes and augment them would be immoral, as you'd be taking their money knowing damn well that it wouldn't change a thing.

Augmentation like that would change nothing. If you think it'd give people more opportunities, you're sadly mistaken.[/QUOTE]

You will usually find those who do well despite the school being a shit heap come from better backgrounds than those who come from lesser backgrounds.

Everyone who I knew who achieved well came from richer backgrounds or had teachers in the family.

[MaverickIB]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136778]You will usually find those who do well despite the school being a shit heap come from better backgrounds than those who come from lesser backgrounds.[/QUOTE]

Way to pull crap out of thin air. You're talking to someone with a lot of experience in that, yet you're daring to just make shit up?

Everyone who went to my school was poor. The girl who went to MIT? Poor. She had no father around, her mother worked 3 jobs and her little brother sold drugs just so food could be put on the table. She wasn't an exception either, that story was the case for most of the kids at my school. The kids who did well were self-motivated. They often had no parental support. Hell, teachers didn't even support them. We constantly heard from teachers to just get our HS diplomas and find a decent 9-5 job because that's all we'd ever amount to.

Despite those conditions, the few who had the drive for success did well. To say they did well because they had a better background or whatever is absolute horseshit. I was there, I experienced it firsthand, I listened to them talk about their lives at home. You'd be silly to try and tell me otherwise.

Augmentation would have changed nothing. There were plenty of kids who were smart as hell but lacked the motivation to do well. You could have given them all the tools in the world to be successful, but you can't augment someone's drive for success. Without that, no matter who you are, you will be nothing.

[SCopE5000]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32136778]You will usually find those who do well despite the school being a shit heap come from better backgrounds than those who come from lesser backgrounds.

Everyone who I knew who achieved well came from richer backgrounds or had teachers in the family.[/QUOTE]

Academia only really counts for anything when it comes to getting jobs. Most successful company owners and innovators have very little Academic credit, and many came from underprivileged backgrounds where they learned the value of hard work.

What they did have in common though, was the drive to become 'successful' by their own definitions.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32136885]Way to pull crap out of thin air. You're talking to someone with a lot of experience in that, yet you're daring to just make shit up?

Everyone who went to my school was poor. The girl who went to MIT? Poor. She had no father around, her mother worked 3 jobs and her little brother sold drugs just so food could be put on the table. She wasn't an exception either, that story was the case for most of the kids at my school. The kids who did well were self-motivated. They often had no parental support. Hell, teachers didn't even support them. We constantly heard from teachers to just get our HS diplomas and find a decent 9-5 job because that's all we'd ever amount to.

Despite those conditions, the few who had the drive for success did well. To say they did well because they had a better background or whatever is absolute horseshit. I was there, I experienced it firsthand, I listened to them talk about their lives at home. You'd be silly to try and tell me otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Fair point, however there must have been some background support somewhere along the line, or a long lying ambition that has had time to develop for most persons life

[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32136954]Academia only really counts for anything when it comes to getting jobs. Most successful company owners and innovators have very little Academic credit, and many came from underprivileged backgrounds where they learned the value of hard work.

What they did have in common though, was the drive to become 'successful' by their own definitions.[/QUOTE]

I'm not really talking about those types, I don't think you could create that kind of ability in a person as it is usually created from experience. However a person may want to go into something like banking or finance but cannot due to not having the right mathematical ability.