The Moron's Guide To Transhumanism, Human Enhancement And Why It's Fucking Awesome.
472 replies, posted
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;32139023]Aren't you that guy who showed up in that other thread and was all "GUYS CAN'T YOU SEE, IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT" and claimed that people were somehow oppressing you because they didn't share your belief
(My question was rhetorical I know you are that guy)[/QUOTE]
dude he's a 13 year old shaman
don't offend him, he'll FUCK YOU UP
[QUOTE=Turnips5;32139088]dude he's a 13 year old shaman
don't offend him, he'll FUCK YOU UP[/QUOTE]
I will send that motherfucker back to the reincarnation site (provided he has some followers left)
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1087146?highlight=[/url]
[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]
can't breathe for laughs
someone call the paramedics
[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]
(it's funny because he is going to end up with stunted growth)
> disregard argument
> make claim of superiority
[QUOTE=Carbo;32139263]> disregard argument
> make claim of superiority[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Carbo;32139263]argument[/QUOTE]
I think I need some bionic eyes because I'm not seeing it.
I think the concept is interesting... Needs more time to develop. Right now, the majority of it consists of novelty. And then you've got people getting tubes sticking out of their skull that allow them to see, whereas before they were blind.
That's the good stuff. And we need to work on getting stuff like that down to a reasonable level of intrusiveness and complication before we start to work on the novelty aspect of it. As cool as having a retinal HUD would be, giving sight to the blind or limbs to the infirm takes precedence.
However, once we get far enough that these surgeries can be performed without risk of complication, then we can start working on the novelties like superhuman strength, speed, agility, sight, sound, etc.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;32139285]I think I need some bionic eyes because I'm not seeing it.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i51.tinypic.com/2ltlsif.png[/img]
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;32136212]If you were to say "Wah Wah I'm weak" - That's your choice to decide you are weak, you live your life and make your own choices, no one else can do that for you.[/QUOTE]
Except, of course, for the decision of 'do I get augmented', which you are making for them, on account of your inability to live in a world where shit gets done without requiring immense effort. Again, I hope by the same logic you don't let people poor at math use calculators, people poor at running use shoes, and people poor at flying use commercial flight. Because it's their choice to be bad at math/running/flying, and fuck them if they want to use the benefits of modern technology to compensate for their weaknesses, right?
The difference is that shoes and calculators are tools. They help you do the job, but don't do the job for you. Outright replacing your legs to be faster would be just getting technology to do the job for you. You wouldn't even receive credit for what you do.
What a depressing life it'd be to do so much but never get any credit for anything because everyone just goes "It's because machines do it for him." You'd really be able to live like that? Knowing that you aren't really accomplishing anything, you're just letting shit do the work for you?
If you had magnets in your fingers, does that mean whenever you tried to, say, handle hard drives or tapes that you would wipe them? Also, Transhumanism sound awesome, where i can i read more?
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143331]The difference is that shoes and calculators are tools. They help you do the job, but don't do the job for you. Outright replacing your legs to be faster would be just getting technology to do the job for you. You wouldn't even receive credit for what you do.
What a depressing life it'd be to do so much but never get any credit for anything because everyone just goes "It's because machines do it for him." You'd really be able to live like that? Knowing that you aren't really accomplishing anything, you're just letting shit do the work for you?[/QUOTE]
Well, we can celebrate and praise racing car drivers and jockeys while all the "work" is being done by the car/horse. What we might see is a shift in culture; for example, in the Olympics, the mechanics and engineers of prosthetics will be lauded just as much, if not more, than the athletes using them.
You still are in control of all that machinery and your mastery of it will still be credited.
[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]
And assuming that you're not forced to undergo any modifications of the sort, there'll still be a place for the "traditional" way of doing things. We have machines/computers that can play any music we compose for it and that can imitate any instrument but there's still a place for musicians.
Anyways, I don't mind not being lauded for doing simple, menial things like running fast or using a calculator.
Except race cars have to meet certain specifications so no car has a distinct advantage over another. In horse racing, the horses get all the credit. I have never heard of a jockey being applauded, it's always the horse that is celebrated.
What I'm saying is that if you use an augment to compose music, you won't receive any praise. Sure, people might enjoy the music, but nobody will give you credit. Like you said, they'll praise the machinery and not the operator. What a horrible day it will be when the measure of a person is determined by the quality of their augmentations, not their natural ability or merit.
Instead of "Hey, you did a good job on that report last week."
"Hey, that writing augment really produced a good report for you last week."
Slowly removing the human element from what it means to be human.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143608]Except race cars have to meet certain specifications so no car has a distinct advantage over another. In horse racing, the horses get all the credit. I have never heard of a jockey being applauded, it's always the horse that is celebrated.
What I'm saying is that if you use an augment to compose music, you won't receive any praise. Sure, people might enjoy the music, but nobody will give you credit. Like you said, they'll praise the machinery and not the operator. What a horrible day it will be when the measure of a person is determined by the quality of their augmentations, not their natural ability or merit.
Instead of "Hey, you did a good job on that report last week."
"Hey, that writing augment really produced a good report for you last week."
Slowly removing the human element from what it means to be human.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if we'll be able to instill creativity into machines. If we do, then won't that simply enhance human capabilties? The human element is there but amplified instead.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143608]Except race cars have to meet certain specifications so no car has a distinct advantage over another. In horse racing, the horses get all the credit. I have never heard of a jockey being applauded, it's always the horse that is celebrated.
What I'm saying is that if you use an augment to compose music, you won't receive any praise. Sure, people might enjoy the music, but nobody will give you credit. Like you said, they'll praise the machinery and not the operator. What a horrible day it will be when the measure of a person is determined by the quality of their augmentations, not their natural ability or merit.
Instead of "Hey, you did a good job on that report last week."
"Hey, that writing augment really produced a good report for you last week."
Slowly removing the human element from what it means to be human.[/QUOTE]What would be the point of implanting something that can do tasks like that on it's own? It would be far cheaper and easier to put it on a regular computer.
And if you want to take credit for your work, don't get augmented, doing as well or better than other people while working with less than them, or even at a handicap, is always impressive to people, like the guy who ran the London marathon it a 1900s diving suit.
And changing what it means to be human is someone we'll have to do before becoming transhuman, I don't see it as a bad thing.
[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=The Aussie;32143529]If you had magnets in your fingers, does that mean whenever you tried to, say, handle hard drives or tapes that you would wipe them? Also, Transhumanism sound awesome, where i can i read more?[/QUOTE] Nowhere near strong enough for that, but I've heard taking the magnet out of a harddrive and holding it can be sore.
Grinding.be and biohack.me are good reads, there's also plenty of papers, essays and novels on it, I don't know what it is about sites like those and unusual URL suffixes though.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143331]The difference is that shoes and calculators are tools. They help you do the job, but don't do the job for you. Outright replacing your legs to be faster would be just getting technology to do the job for you. [/QUOTE]
That is splitting hairs. All you're saying is that technology supplementing the body is fine, but technology replacing parts of the body isn't fine, and that's just an utterly arbitrary distinction.
And augmenting your legs wouldn't suddenly do everything for you, you still need to actually use them. Once again, just having the hardware isn't everything.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32146488]That is splitting hairs. All you're saying is that technology supplementing the body is fine, but technology replacing parts of the body isn't fine, and that's just an utterly arbitrary distinction.
And augmenting your legs wouldn't suddenly do everything for you, you still need to actually use them. Once again, just having the hardware isn't everything.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense, my leg augmentations are augmented and run on their own
when i take them off at night and go to sleep they go out and pick up my coffee and doughnuts
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143331]The difference is that shoes and calculators are tools. They help you do the job, but don't do the job for you. Outright replacing your legs to be faster would be just getting technology to do the job for you. You wouldn't even receive credit for what you do.
What a depressing life it'd be to do so much but never get any credit for anything because everyone just goes "It's because machines do it for him." You'd really be able to live like that? Knowing that you aren't really accomplishing anything, you're just letting shit do the work for you?[/QUOTE]
uh, actually shoes do do the job of protecting your feet for you
the hell are you talking about
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143608]Except race cars have to meet certain specifications so no car has a distinct advantage over another. In horse racing, the horses get all the credit. I have never heard of a jockey being applauded, it's always the horse that is celebrated.
What I'm saying is that if you use an augment to compose music, you won't receive any praise. Sure, people might enjoy the music, but nobody will give you credit. Like you said, they'll praise the machinery and not the operator. What a horrible day it will be when the measure of a person is determined by the quality of their augmentations, not their natural ability or merit.
Instead of "Hey, you did a good job on that report last week."
"Hey, that writing augment really produced a good report for you last week."
Slowly removing the human element from what it means to be human.[/QUOTE]
And people should be praised for something they're born with, at least in terms of things like the ability to sing?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;32147264]uh, actually shoes do do the job of protecting your feet for you
the hell are you talking about[/QUOTE]
Did I say they do otherwise? They protect the feet, they're tools.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32147867]Did I say they do otherwise? They protect the feet, they're tools.[/QUOTE]
You said "they don't do the job for you", and he's saying they do "do the job" of protecting your feet, assuming protecting your feet is a job that needs doing, which is a reasonable assumption
They help protect your feet. Your feet can protect themselves with callouses.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32148026]They help protect your feet. Your feet can protect themselves with callouses.[/QUOTE]
Skin and specifically the fat pads
[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32133666]
Except that without art and music and creativity and innovation, there would be little point in existence at all.
We could be the most technologically advanced society ever in the history of the universe but I sure wouldn't care about living very much if there's [B]nothing to fucking do.[/B]
Every form of entertainment today is the result of someone being creative and innovative.
[/quote]
Doesn't change the fact that maths, physics and chemistry simply pay more. Sure you may want to pursue whatever arts you want, but the high paying jobs are nearly all on the other side (yeah sure some artists make a fortune, but those are special cases and scientists/mathematicians/chemist special cases make ten times that of any artist).
Also what are films, video games, cars, TV, airplanes, electronics and just about everything else part of? Computers aren't the by-product of art. 99% of all leisure activities and art today base themselves on things possible due to advances in maths, physics and chemistry (no sciences nothing to fucking do other than playing with mud and watching a painting).
[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32133666]
Additionally, your statement about everyone getting a Ph.D. in some science or mathematical field is a ridiculous overestimation of how many people are actually contributing to a new discovery that benefits humanity as a whole. There are so many things that are being researched that are of no practical use to any of us, or are only beneficial on the extremely long-term.
[/quote]
And 99.9% of "art" is just some shitty painting by some hipster in a basement that contributes to exactly nothing practically, and won't be beneficial on the extremely long term. Goes for both sides.
[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32133666]
Tons of money is being spent on random biological studies about the mating cycle of (insert creature here) that is of absolutely [I]no practical benefit[/I] to anyone on Earth besides biologists. That's a stupid example, but if you just browse any science website you can find tons of stuff that won't effect any of us in the slightest.
It adds to our collective database of knowledge, most assuredly, but studies like that, in my view, are just as "pointless" as any artistic or musical creation. Knowledge doesn't mean shit if it just [i]exists[/i] without any purpose.
[/quote]
Actually those are very important, just because you don't see it doesn't mean they aren't. When animal X is in danger of extinction or you need to breed it because part of it is/becomes valuable, you'll be very happy you know how they work and especially how they mate.
[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32133666]
Maybe we should shift all priority to solving the actual problems with humanity, like starvation and disease and suffering, you know? There's also the fact that technology is still only available to the privileged few, and that a lot of humanity still lives in the fucking dirt.[/QUOTE]
It's human nature to have wealthy people and poor people, it will never change. Everyone being equal is an utopia (like communism), humans don't work like that (not to mention that if I can do more then the guy next to me, why should I not have more? Talking about communism here, not saying Africa should be so poor, everyone should get the same starting position, then some go further then others).
[QUOTE=Z3r0747;32133666]
Just my two cents on the issue. I'm not undermining the importance of science at all, but people tend to blow it way out of proportion and make it seem like [B]every scientific discovery[/B] is somehow useful to everyone.[/QUOTE]
I don't even know how we ended up on this argument. All I said is that if people get a CPU implanted in their brain that does maths and a flash memory that stores information, they'll be taking Ph.Ds in just about whatever scientific sector they want and will take all the jobs (and it would be the most high paying most wanted jobs too). It would be impossible to compete with a CPU augmented human (both can think creatively, only that the aug can also calculate a million times faster and better). That means that everyone else either deals with whatever risks and side-effects there are to grafting something to your brain, or they fall behind and get all the low paying, undesirable jobs (and "Just study arts" is like telling an artist "Just get a Ph.D in maths"). Not to mention then there is the money problem, because they won't be cheap so poor people will have no chance at all.
I am a fierce humanist (the "Humanity, fuck yeah!" kind) and believe that "Human's shouldn't play God" is bullshit, [B]but[/B] I don't believe in the average human's judgemental capabilities especially for stuff as intricate as this (in short, augs sure, as long as they are regulated by the right people).
Yes I know how much of an utopia that last sentence is, hence why I'm partially against augmentation.
[QUOTE=acds;32151825]Doesn't change the fact that maths, physics and chemistry simply pay more. Sure you may want to pursue whatever arts you want, but the high paying jobs are nearly all on the other side (yeah sure some artists make a fortune, but those are special cases and scientists/mathematicians/chemist special cases make ten times that of any artist).
Also what are films, video games, cars, TV, airplanes, electronics and just about everything else part of? Computers aren't the by-product of art. 99% of all leisure activities and art today base themselves on things possible due to advances in maths, physics and chemistry (no sciences nothing to fucking do other than playing with mud and watching a painting).
[/QUOTE]
The sciences certainly do pay more; I never denied that. And yes, a lot of art today is based in technology made possible by science. However, that still doesn't mean that the only subjects worth pursuing in life are science and mathematics.
Even today, some people with science degrees tend to look down upon people with philosophy or liberal arts degrees. Art is important to how our society became our society, if that makes sense. It shouldn't be looked down upon as something inferior or less useful to humanity because it's essential to people's well-being.
[quote]And 99.9% of "art" is just some shitty painting by some hipster in a basement that contributes to exactly nothing practically, and won't be beneficial on the extremely long term. Goes for both sides.[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]Actually those are very important, just because you don't see it doesn't mean they aren't. When animal X is in danger of extinction or you need to breed it because part of it is/becomes valuable, you'll be very happy you know how they work and especially how they mate.[/quote]
That's a matter of perspective. Everything is important to someone; what I was saying is that I believe we have more pressing issues to be concerned about rather than learning more about random facts of nature.
[quote]It's human nature to have wealthy people and poor people, it will never change. Everyone being equal is an utopia (like communism), humans don't work like that (not to mention that if I can do more then the guy next to me, why should I not have more? Talking about communism here, not saying Africa should be so poor, everyone should get the same starting position, then some go further then others).[/quote]
Indeed, communism is unrealistic. I don't believe everyone should be equal, I believe that we should simply try to get rid of unnecessary suffering.
[quote]I don't even know how we ended up on this argument. All I said is that if people get a CPU implanted in their brain that does maths and a flash memory that stores information, they'll be taking Ph.Ds in just about whatever scientific sector they want and will take all the jobs (and it would be the most high paying most wanted jobs too). It would be impossible to compete with a CPU augmented human (both can think creatively, only that the aug can also calculate a million times faster and better). That means that everyone else either deals with whatever risks and side-effects there are to grafting something to your brain, or they fall behind and get all the low paying, undesirable jobs (and "Just study arts" is like telling an artist "Just get a Ph.D in maths"). Not to mention then there is the money problem, because they won't be cheap so poor people will have no chance at all.
I am a fierce humanist (the "Humanity, fuck yeah!" kind) and believe that "Human's shouldn't play God" is bullshit, [B]but[/B] I don't believe in the average human's judgemental capabilities especially for stuff as intricate as this (in short, augs sure, as long as they are regulated by the right people).
Yes I know how much of an utopia that last sentence is, hence why I'm partially against augmentation.[/quote]
Well then if I'm understanding you correctly, we're pretty much on the same page. I was originally responding to the comment of "math and science being more important than everything else", which I disagreed with.
I just don't see augmentations being very realistic or feasible even in the future. Especially the ones dealing with the brain, since we have a very, very, very long way to go in understanding the brain before we can attempt to attach stuff onto it.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32148026]They help protect your feet. Your feet can protect themselves with callouses.[/QUOTE]
So gas masks don't protect you from deadly chemicals, they just help your lungs filter them out?
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32143331]The difference is that shoes and calculators are tools. They help you do the job, but don't do the job for you. Outright replacing your legs to be faster would be just getting technology to do the job for you. You wouldn't even receive credit for what you do.
What a depressing life it'd be to do so much but never get any credit for anything because everyone just goes "It's because machines do it for him." You'd really be able to live like that? Knowing that you aren't really accomplishing anything, you're just letting shit do the work for you?[/QUOTE] So when scientists use computers to help them form theories does the computer take any credit? Really as long as you aren't some attention crazy d-bag you shouldn't care if your running is helped by machines or not. What should matter is that you run faster and then you get tired less fast. It shouldn't be about fame it should be about something a little more mature then that. People will go to the track to not just see runners but to see how far technology is progressing and what current models can do comparing different types and seeing there strengths and weaknesses. It will be the runner and the engineer that get the glory and theres nothing wrong with that.
[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32148026]They help protect your feet. Your feet can protect themselves with callouses.[/QUOTE] Do you know how many people die in 3rd world countries a year because they get some infection, parasite, bites or disease because they aren't wearing shoes? Wearing shoes definitely way better at protecting your feet. Its like you have never seen any of those charity shows about kids in 3rd world countries before.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32154298]So when scientists use computers to help them form theories does the computer take any credit? Really as long as you aren't some attention crazy d-bag you shouldn't care if your running is helped by machines or not. What should matter is that you run faster and then you get tired less fast. It shouldn't be about fame it should be about something a little more mature then that. People will go to the track to not just see runners but to see how far technology is progressing and what current models can do comparing different types and seeing there strengths and weaknesses. It will be the runner and the engineer that get the glory and theres nothing wrong with that.
[editline]6th September 2011[/editline]
Do you know how many people die in 3rd world countries a year because they get some infection, parasite, bites or disease because they aren't wearing shoes? Wearing shoes definitely way better at protecting your feet. Its like you have never seen any of those charity shows about kids in 3rd world countries before.[/QUOTE]
In Mavericks defence I don't think he was arguing people shouldn't wear shoes.
I'm not saying we shouldn't use shit to do extra-human things, holy fuck you're missing the point. What I'm saying is, for example, if someone uses a gas mask to get through an area, nobody is going to go "You sure did a good job at getting through that poisonous air." Credit will be given to the gas mask.
So if you're augmented, you no longer receive credit for your accomplishments, the manufacturers of your augs will. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but humans often rely on the praise of others for mental stability. People simply need to be told they're doing a good job. Doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but knowing nobody gives you credit for what you've done can ruin the human psyche.
It's not the same with shoes and other [i]tools[/i] because they simply aid us, they don't do the job for us. With machines that do the job for us, the operator might get some credit for using the machine but at the end of the day, the machine is what people will say did the work. When a guy uses a forklift to lift something heavy, they don't go "Damn, that guy lifted that heavy as fuck object." They go "That forklift lifted that heavy as fuck object."
Imagine if you got augmented legs and ran the 100m dash in the fastest time ever. Do you think people will be going "____ is the fastest man alive!" No. They'll be going "[insert company here] has built the fastest legs in the world!"
There'd be no incentive for people to make great music or great discoveries. History books would be filled with the names of companies instead of the names of individuals. That's the next step of human evolution?
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32154517]I'm not saying we shouldn't use shit to do extra-human things, holy fuck you're missing the point. What I'm saying is, for example, if someone uses a gas mask to get through an area, nobody is going to go "You sure did a good job at getting through that poisonous air." Credit will be given to the gas mask.
So if you're augmented, you no longer receive credit for your accomplishments, the manufacturers of your augs will. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but humans often rely on the praise of others for mental stability. People simply need to be told they're doing a good job. Doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but knowing nobody gives you credit for what you've done can ruin the human psyche.[/QUOTE] I could see if the gas mask did all the work. If your a fire fighter your still goi9ng to get praise even if you use one. There still is going to be situations where people can do good things. Not everything is going to be taken away by machines right away.
Yeah, but being a firefighter isn't about breathing in dangerous environments. No tools firefighters use go into burning buildings and save people for them. If a firefighter were to use some kind of special robot to go into the building, nobody would praise him. They'd talk about how awesome the robot is.
Keywords: right away.
So just because it won't happen tomorrow, it's okay? Oh my bad, I didn't know things suddenly become okay as long as they happen in the far future.
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