The Moron's Guide To Transhumanism, Human Enhancement And Why It's Fucking Awesome.
472 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32033589]Calculating raw numbers isn't really a skill needed in the modern world. I mean, a disposable camera can capture and "remember" a picture better than the brain can, does that make it superior to the brain?
When it comes down to processing large amounts of data and [i]applying that data using logic and reason[/i], the brain is unmatched. A calculator can beat a brain at raw equations but a calculator can't decide which equation needs to be used for a specific problem or consider margins of error.[/QUOTE] Sure you can't have a conversation with a calculator but having an upgrade to be able to handle math as good as one would be very helpful.
Being able to do math better would be a retarded reason to open your brain up.
How helpful would it be, really? You'd open your head up so you could count change better or figure out how many more minutes you have till your lunch break? That's just stupid. An extremely small percent of jobs require the ability to do advanced math, and even then computers do most of it for you just fine.
I don't think it would be that bad. I could see if there was a chance I could die or something but really being able to instantly do math is helpful in way more ways then you think. It would change how you look at anything involving numbers.
[editline]30th August 2011[/editline]
in fact right now im helping my brother with math. It would be pretty helpful to have a calculator in my head right now.
Having a more efficient means of interfacing with a computer built into your head would be good. It wouldn't be like think of the problem and it pops into your head, you would input it somehow with your thoughts and it would give it back to you via a known sense eg. vision.
Good luck handling a HDD with magnets in your hands.
[QUOTE=kevlar jens;32028355]balls of steel[/QUOTE]
hell, fuck having balls.
I want CUBES.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32031638]I feel like the brain shouldn't be worked on because it doesn't really need to improve. I mean, the main thing holding our brains back is our bodies. In a sense, our brains are being bottlenecked. You could probably hook someone up with 4-6 arms and they'd manage it just fine after getting used to it, without taxing the brain too much more.
We have a long ways to go in terms of improving our bodies before we even need to begin thinking about improving our brains. The only brain related modifications I would consider reasonable at this moment are ones to prevent deteriorative effects like Alzheimer's.[/QUOTE]
Why are people so iffy about modifying the brain? It really is just another part of the body. It's not a matter if something needs improving but rather how we can improve it.
[editline]31st August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32033837]Being able to do math better would be a retarded reason to open your brain up.
How helpful would it be, really? You'd open your head up so you could count change better or figure out how many more minutes you have till your lunch break? That's just stupid. An extremely small percent of jobs require the ability to do advanced math, and even then computers do most of it for you just fine.[/QUOTE]
Which is why you might want to combine a computer with the brain. People already carry around computers everywhere (laptops, smartphones) so why not just integrate it into our bodies? What makes the brain so much more sacred?
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;32036216]Why are people so iffy about modifying the brain? It really is just another part of the body. It's not a matter if something needs improving but rather how we can improve it.[/QUOTE]
People are "iffy" about it because it's a fragile thing. There's so many layers upon layers to it that the margin for error is huge, and not just during the operation.
Afterwards, will you still be the same person? Will you think that same? Is that calculator the only adjustment made to your brain?
Lots of things need to be taken into account, and the brain is special because it's more than just a bionic enhancement the surgeons may be adding, it's more than just an inefficient system that needs replacing, it's [I]you[/I], and those imperfections may very well be what makes you human.
That's why everyone's so "iffy" about it.
And I thank you for allowing me to go all lyrical about this.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;32027577]there's also the issue of obsolescence. what happens when the companies stop supporting your arms that seemed so fancy and new a few years ago? you'll be stuck carrying around "legacy hardware" while everyone else has newer and better augs. you thought you'd avoid losing your job by getting augmentations, but that just meant you had to buy new parts every few years in order to remain competitive.
next, say if you could afford a new arm upgrade. the doctors disconnect your arm while they prepare for the operation, leaving you with a stump with a metal end that new stuff can be attached to, kind of like a USB interface. what if the manufacturer of the original arm restricts this interface to only accept arms of that manufacturer? you'd be stuck with that manufacturer forever, with all the obvious complications that would bring. what if that manufacturer goes bust, leaving you with obsolete cyberarms that can't be replaced? even if the company makes the interface work across all brands, what about when the industry-standard interface itself gets upgraded? I suppose you could just cut off the interface completely and install a new one on the new stump, but that means you've lost more flesh that'll never get put back. Keep doing this for each new iteration over the years and you'll run out of room to put the new socket.
(Sorry for how haphazard that went, I kept thinking of new stuff as I went along)[/QUOTE]
It's worth pointing out that things for obsolete hardware is made right now, for all sorts of things, all the time.
There's only a few exceptions I've seen (auto parts is one, but don't get me started on how we've ruined our own auto industry) but people would have to be absolutely stupid to not setup a reselling service for older parts or just make parts for older hardware, if there's a market there will be people to setup shop in it, unless something stupid is to stop them (like a government agency which prohibits selling of obsolete parts for "security" reasons, or something stupid like that)
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;32036216]Why are people so iffy about modifying the brain? It really is just another part of the body. It's not a matter if something needs improving but rather how we can improve it.
[editline]31st August 2011[/editline]
Which is why you might want to combine a computer with the brain. People already carry around computers everywhere (laptops, smartphones) so why not just integrate it into our bodies? What makes the brain so much more sacred?[/QUOTE]
If it was perfectly safe, I'd be all for it.
But we have to be realistic here. Operating on the brain will most likely never be safe until we have some seriously high tech equipment. The trade-offs simply aren't worth the risk at all. You'd risk death or serious brain injury just so you could do math better or have a HUD, things that are easily done with portable tools?
On the other hand, the tools needed to lift objects for you aren't really portable. We can't carry forklifts around with us. Improving the brain would be something done simply for the "cool" factor, which is a dumb reason to cut yourself open. Improving the arms/legs/internal organs would actually improve your capabilities as a human being drastically.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32040037]If it was perfectly safe, I'd be all for it.
But we have to be realistic here. Operating on the brain will most likely never be safe until we have some seriously high tech equipment. The trade-offs simply aren't worth the risk at all. You'd risk death or serious brain injury just so you could do math better or have a HUD, things that are easily done with portable tools?
On the other hand, the tools needed to lift objects for you aren't really portable. We can't carry forklifts around with us. Improving the brain would be something done simply for the "cool" factor, which is a dumb reason to cut yourself open. Improving the arms/legs/internal organs would actually improve your capabilities as a human being drastically.[/QUOTE]
I highly doubt we will be seeing brain implants for a while
I read the title of this thread as "The Mormon's Guide To Transhumanism" and I was confused.
In around 10-20 years we're going to be able to have fully functioning limbs, maybe even eyes. That is of course, if we keep developing these parts at this rate.
[QUOTE=aliendrone123;32040749]I read the title of this thread as "The Mormon's Guide To Transhumanism" and I was confused.
In around 10-20 years we're going to be able to have fully functioning limbs, maybe even eyes. That is of course, if we keep developing these parts at this rate.[/QUOTE]
But my limbs are already fully functional :(
[QUOTE=Stren;31991520]Defibrillators are about the size of a laptop, no way you could implant one.
[/QUOTE]
Turn the defib into a backpack king of thing or something and have the wires going into your body.
Just a guess.
[QUOTE=Contag;32044170]But my limbs are already fully functional :([/QUOTE]
Yeah. I wouldn't want anything replaced unless I lost it either (although the preferred option would to have it be regrown).
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;32040037]But we have to be realistic here. Operating on the brain will most likely never be safe until we have some seriously high tech equipment. The trade-offs simply aren't worth the risk at all. You'd risk death or serious brain injury just so you could do math better or have a HUD, things that are easily done with portable tools?[/QUOTE]
A HUD would probably just need to intercept the optic nerve and build it into there, Could do it even easier with an artificial eye.
[editline]1st September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=aliendrone123;32040749]I read the title of this thread as "The Mormon's Guide To Transhumanism" and I was confused.
In around 10-20 years we're going to be able to have fully functioning limbs, maybe even eyes. That is of course, if we keep developing these parts at this rate.[/QUOTE]
Not everything in science and engineering is going at the same speed. VLSI electronics is going at an incredible speed but everything else is at a snail's pace compared to it. It's going to make information processing even better, but mechanical elements are still going to be slow.
I have to agree with Maverick here. It isn't worth diving into the brain in the near future if we don't need to/the risks are too high. What I would like to see is a HUD goggle specialized for professions, like flight and construction, and in the far future, specialized implants for the brain that provide mental knowledge and mastery of a certain thing.
You see, I just don't think that's going to be possible for an extremely long time, if ever.
Mastering a profession or whatever is about far more than just knowing shit. I mean, you could have all the information in the world about quantum physics implanted into your brain and still be a shit quantum physicist. Why? Because true knowledge is knowing how to apply what you know, not just knowing it for the sake of knowing it. You could be able to calculate numbers in a split second but still get stumped on a problem because you don't know which formula to use.
So if a chip or whatever were to actually be useful, it'd have to not only provide knowledge but also interface with our abilities to use that knowledge with logic and reason. Something like that would need to be so intricate and advanced that there's no way people would pour the resources into developing it. Schooling people and choosing the candidates that pick up on it will remain the cheapest solution.
Implants that affect things like reflexes, balance, stress management, and whatnot are all plausible. Implants that somehow make you a genius at a certain field of study are not. It just isn't as simple as putting all the information in your brain and ta-da, you're a genius. That's kind of like saying you're a martial arts master just because you know everything there is about a certain art. 10 bucks says when it's time to actually practice it, you won't have a clue what the fuck you're doing. Same exact concept with any other subject, being knowledgeable does not equate to being proficient.
Brain implants are almost certain to be like modern day electronics. One person has a C433 implant while another has a C434 implant which is marginally faster so obviously the person with the faster one is smarter. Eventually it's just a dick waving contest like so many other things just to have the best numbers associated with them.
And yeah, actual intelligence is hard as fuck. It's possible that you could create implants which would provide simulated training and help you develop those skills more efficiently, but it's not a matter of just transferring the intelligence into your head. Even for organically grown intelligence from AIs, it's not applicable to almost every other device which isn't an exact hardware copy and human brains are far more diverse than AIs.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;32053777]Brain implants are almost certain to be like modern day electronics. One person has a C433 implant while another has a C434 implant which is marginally faster so obviously the person with the faster one is smarter. Eventually it's just a dick waving contest like so many other things just to have the best numbers associated with them.
And yeah, actual intelligence is hard as fuck. It's possible that you could create implants which would provide simulated training and help you develop those skills more efficiently, but it's not a matter of just transferring the intelligence into your head. Even for organically grown intelligence from AIs, it's not applicable to almost every other device which isn't an exact hardware copy and human brains are far more diverse than AIs.[/QUOTE]The idea of having certain implants make someone much smarter than others is the sort of thing that would make George Orwell sleep with a nightlight.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;32054086]The idea of having certain implants make someone much smarter than others is the sort of thing that would make George Orwell sleep with a nightlight.[/QUOTE]
It's something a lot of people really get upset about and think it's going to cause a horrible oligarchy where the augmented Übermenschs rule over the primitive and far less intelligent poor. They forget that computers are stupid and connecting a computer to your brain won't make them any smarter.
[QUOTE=Cone;32038543]People are "iffy" about it because it's a fragile thing. There's so many layers upon layers to it that the margin for error is huge, and not just during the operation.
Afterwards, will you still be the same person? Will you think that same? Is that calculator the only adjustment made to your brain?
Lots of things need to be taken into account, and the brain is special because it's more than just a bionic enhancement the surgeons may be adding, it's more than just an inefficient system that needs replacing, it's [I]you[/I], and those imperfections may very well be what makes you human.
That's why everyone's so "iffy" about it.
And I thank you for allowing me to go all lyrical about this.[/QUOTE]
The brain isn't as fragile as people think. It's adaptable and plastic. You can have a [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage]metal pole go through your frontal cortex, taking out a large chunk of your brain, and still live.[/URL] You'll probably suffer for it but you'll be alive.
And it's very well that your brain can define who you are but that's not to say that it is some sort of constant or is meant to be unchanging unlike your DNA. If you get a stroke, Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease, you'll lose parts of your brain but does that change who you are in a metaphysical sense? Are you now a different human/person? And is it just brain structure that cannot be altered or does that include function and composition (neurotransmitters, receptors or the types of cells) and if so, does taking mind altering substances from hallucinogens to stimulants like caffeine also change who we are for a time, or even for all time? Opening up your skull and adding in gadgets is no less deliberate than drinking a cup of coffee to stay awake for longer.
Of course if this surgery were available you'd have to weigh up the pros and cons - risks and dangers - but we do that (or should) for about every choice we make. It's interesting to examine why people have such an aversion to tampering with the brain. Is it a fear of being controlled; wills that don't originate within ourselves? Do we see the brain as a house of the "soul" that invading would somehow doom us? Are we afraid of our minds and personality changing even though those things already change - must change - all the time in response to new information and stimuli in order to survive?
[QUOTE=catbarf;31999173]The same functionality could be done with lens-projection glasses, perhaps with a short range wireless connection or even a wired socket (say, on the skull by the ear). Even granting some kind of brain implant so that the device can monitor body functions, there's no need to make it more invasive by tying it to skull-mounted lenses, when non-implanted glasses using the same technology and connected to said brain implant in some fashion could provide the same result. There's just no point to gratuitous implantation when more conventional means will do the job.
My point is that a lot of people are really jumping the gun on this. The technology isn't even close to being ready, yet we have people performing hazardous procedures of questionable utility (like sticking magnets in the fingers). People are supporting transhumanism not because of the benefits it could provide, but simply because it's really cool, and that's misguided and potentially harmful to early adopters.[url=http://www.coachpursesreview.com/]Cheap Coach Purses[/url]
You'd be surprised, the military has contracts on hardened versions of even the most basic things in the case of nuclear attack. The big problem is that even tiny fluctuations can destroy sensitive electronics, and then you need brain surgery to fix it.
Cranial implants are the most far-fetched of augmentations, I think. Neuroscience is nowhere near the level to make it practical, and needing brain surgery to implant and to repair the extraordinarily delicate machinery that would be required would be difficult at best.[/QUOTE]The post tell us more knowledge,we can use it in our life.Thank you for the artor
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;32054958]The brain isn't as fragile as people think. It's adaptable and plastic. You can have a [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage]metal pole go through your frontal cortex, taking out a large chunk of your brain, and still live.[/URL] You'll probably suffer for it but you'll be alive.
And it's very well that your brain can define who you are but that's not to say that it is some sort of constant or is meant to be unchanging unlike your DNA. If you get a stroke, Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease, you'll lose parts of your brain but does that change who you are in a metaphysical sense? Are you now a different human/person? And is it just brain structure that cannot be altered or does that include function and composition (neurotransmitters, receptors or the types of cells) and if so, does taking mind altering substances from hallucinogens to stimulants like caffeine also change who we are for a time, or even for all time? Opening up your skull and adding in gadgets is no less deliberate than drinking a cup of coffee to stay awake for longer.
Of course if this surgery were available you'd have to weigh up the pros and cons - risks and dangers - but we do that (or should) for about every choice we make. It's interesting to examine why people have such an aversion to tampering with the brain. Is it a fear of being controlled; wills that don't originate within ourselves? Do we see the brain as a house of the "soul" that invading would somehow doom us? Are we afraid of our minds and personality changing even though those things already change - must change - all the time in response to new information and stimuli in order to survive?[/QUOTE]
Alzheimer's doesn't add things, though. And, like it or not, we've never actually added something to the brain before, so for all we know, it could make a floppy dong pop out of your head upon being experimented with.
All we can do is guess, basically. And if there's even a chance that it could change you, people are going to be scared about it. And even if there isn't, anti-transhumanists will be out there saying it can and does change you.
Being able to see Ultraviolet/Infrared would be rad as hell
Got an idea about implanting a hall effect sensor (magnetic field detector pretty much) in your palm, along a small rechargable battery, pretty much making you able to feel magnetic feels
Only issue would probably be charging the thing
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;32054958]The brain isn't as fragile as people think. It's adaptable and plastic. You can have a [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage]metal pole go through your frontal cortex, taking out a large chunk of your brain, and still live.[/URL] You'll probably suffer for it but you'll be alive.[/QUOTE]
This is true. There's also how brain-computer implants can be assimilated by the brain itself, making it easier to manufacture them.
[QUOTE]And it's very well that your brain can define who you are but that's not to say that it is some sort of constant or is meant to be unchanging unlike your DNA. If you get a stroke, Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease, you'll lose parts of your brain but does that change who you are in a metaphysical sense? Are you now a different human/person? And is it just brain structure that cannot be altered or does that include function and composition (neurotransmitters, receptors or the types of cells) and if so, does taking mind altering substances from hallucinogens to stimulants like caffeine also change who we are for a time, or even for all time? Opening up your skull and adding in gadgets is no less deliberate than drinking a cup of coffee to stay awake for longer.[/QUOTE]
Except one treats the brain as circuitry and the other as soup.
[QUOTE]Of course if this surgery were available you'd have to weigh up the pros and cons - risks and dangers - but we do that (or should) for about every choice we make. It's interesting to examine why people have such an aversion to tampering with the brain. Is it a fear of being controlled; wills that don't originate within ourselves? Do we see the brain as a house of the "soul" that invading would somehow doom us? Are we afraid of our minds and personality changing even though those things already change - must change - all the time in response to new information and stimuli in order to survive?[/QUOTE]
I fear that something may go wrong from a medical standpoint, over "herp derp Sarif is installing their mind control illuminati chips to control us".
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;32064612]I fear that something may go wrong from a medical standpoint, over "herp derp [B]Tai Yong Medical[/B] is installing their mind control illuminati chips to control us".[/QUOTE]
:eng101:
[QUOTE=Cone;32060831]Alzheimer's doesn't add things, though. And, like it or not, we've never actually added something to the brain before, so for all we know, it could make a floppy dong pop out of your head upon being experimented with.
All we can do is guess, basically. And if there's even a chance that it could change you, people are going to be scared about it. And even if there isn't, anti-transhumanists will be out there saying it can and does change you.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by add things? Physically or psychologically? If we're talking about physcially then brain tumours add things though I'm sure that's a comparison you may want to avoid if you're advertising the addition of whatever computer parts into the brain.
And what's with the fear that you might be changed? Isn't the whole point that you'll be changed? I'm not going to undergo a lengthy, torturous and expensive surgical process to insert a metal block to my brain that does absolutely nothing.
[editline]2nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;32064612]
I fear that something may go wrong from a medical standpoint, over "herp derp Sarif is installing their mind control illuminati chips to control us".[/QUOTE]
Just like any other surgical proceedure then.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;32064612]I fear that something may go wrong from a medical standpoint, over "herp derp Sarif is installing their mind control illuminati chips to control us".[/QUOTE]
To be fair it probably WOULD end up happening. SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE in a position to abuse the technology inevitably would (it always happens in the end with any technology), and to be honest, the thought of that happening is... terrifying.
[QUOTE=sltungle;32073147]To be fair it probably WOULD end up happening. SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE in a position to abuse the technology inevitably would (it always happens in the end with any technology), and to be honest, the thought of that happening is... terrifying.[/QUOTE]If someone managed to make this and sneak it into a commercial product, they'd better program me to shake their hand because they'd fucking deserve it considering making something like that in the first place without someone knowing would be nigh impossible.[QUOTE=Cone;32060831]Alzheimer's doesn't add things, though. And, like it or not, we've never actually added something to the brain before, so for all we know, it could make a floppy dong pop out of your head upon being experimented with.
All we can do is guess, basically. And if there's even a chance that it could change you, people are going to be scared about it. And even if there isn't, anti-transhumanists will be out there saying it can and does change you.[/QUOTE]Changing yourself is the point, the end goal of transhumanism is to move beyond being just
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