Is fighting for a religion right? - General

No, because if they were peaceful they would have respect for other people's beliefs.

In the case of things like the USSR's atheistic destruction of churched and whatnot; then yes. But fighting for your religion against another or fighting over pointless values that do nothing but cause harm, then no. There is always a line, and as always, it is a line that moves with the situation and circumstances; and is never quite clear.

[QUOTE=lifehole;38587459]In the case of things like the USSR's atheistic destruction of churched and whatnot; then yes. But fighting for your religion against another or fighting over pointless values that do nothing but cause harm, then no. There is always a line, and as always, it is a line that moves with the situation and circumstances; and is never quite clear.[/QUOTE] I think the USSR's assault on religion is a special case, while I think the OP was more of "fighting for your religion" in the sense of crusades and what not, where the religious are the instigators.

Theft because someone's imaginary friend said to do so is still theft.

Situations have changed a little bit but I think fighting to defend your religion, and people of your religion is right. I.e. the pope's eastern crusades. What isn't right however is wars of conquest and expansion of your religion i.e. Northern crusades into the Baltic tribes, Muslim conquests, etc. It's just a shame that the latter is more common than the former. There is also the fact that, a lot of the time, in order to defend someone you have to subjugate another. We'd be better off if people just left each other alone but that shit will never happen.

[QUOTE=AwpersAreBad;38592538]Situations have changed a little bit but I think fighting to defend your religion, and people of your religion is right. I.e. the pope's eastern crusades. What isn't right however is wars of conquest and expansion of your religion i.e. Northern crusades into the Baltic tribes, Muslim conquests, etc. It's just a shame that the latter is more common than the former. There is also the fact that, a lot of the time, in order to defend someone you have to subjugate another. We'd be better off if people just left each other alone but that shit will never happen.[/QUOTE] The thing about those crusades are, religion really wasn't the cause of them. It was just a rallying cry and a pretext. Look at every single "war for religion" and you will find that almost all of them are really for land and resources, with belief systems only as the on the surface reason.

[QUOTE=Falubii;38584909]Physically, no.[/QUOTE] Ok, so if, let's say, someone takes you country and establishes a dictatorship, you would just let that happen?

Assuming that: 1. Your God is real 2. Your religion's teachings are correct Aren't these parameters valid for all religious people? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be the right thing to do as long as your religion tells you to do it.

To find out if a religion is worth finding for lets look at why religions are created and why people follow them. This is probably allready very obvious, but I am just gonna write it anyway. 1. Why are they created? Back in the day, I mean way back in the day, people lived quite dangerous lives. It was common to get sick and die quite early in life. People barely lived beyond 60 and many had to fight for certain causes. Emperors/tribe leaders all over the world wanted to unite their people for different causes such as fighting and taking over other countries so that the wealth could increase and so that the emperors themselves could sit in their position for as long as possible. They wanted more power so they had to act as a messenger for something greater than themselves and their people (because its actually very hard to just convince someone that they should only listen to you). Speaking on behalf of something much greater than an ordinary human was a great idea, and so they did what so many had done before in so many variations. [B]Manipulating the peoples thoughts by using respected wise men with supposedly logical explanations for things that couldn't be explained before. These wise men made the religions we have today through convincing the common people that there was a greater being looking over their lives. This was quite easy since people weren't very intelligent back then and those who were, used it mostly for their own good. We don't have to go in to detail about why they first started to believe it because thats quite obvious. Do what the great being tells you to and you will live a good life on earth and in the afterlife. This has been done throughout the centuries but the last hundreads of years it has changed dramaticly as people's lives got better. It's now mostly about love and peace, but still religious leaders use it to manipulate their people. So in the end this means that religions were made to establish groups which fought for earthly causes so that everyone in the group could be rewarded by the great creature/creatures that the wise men said exists. The groups were the religions, and the religions that won trough brutal wars became the right religion to believe in. It's as simple as that. 2. So why do people nowadays still believe what the wise men told their ancestors? People go with the flow of tradition. Tradition creates ignorance, traditon also creates denial, but most of all it creates people who our bound by religion. It's just so normal to believe in a religon when your parents and grandparents taught you to believe in theirs. I don't know how most people feel about religion, but I bet that in this time of age, people will likely believe in what they are taught at school and what the media shows them. Drawing logical conclusions from facts provided by other facts actually adds up when you look at the big scale of things in science. You can't make things add up in religion, when you add in things that are proven to be physically impossible in so many ways, but thats why its holy, and greater than ourselves. I don't remember what made me question my belief in God, but it probably has to do with growing up and understanding the world trough science. But who knows, maybe the scientists are the wise men this time around? So the conclusion is that there is no good reason to fight over religions other than to help out our great leaders and create false hope.

[QUOTE=matsta;38583557]Why is fighting "stupid in general"? isn't there anything we should fight for at all? [/QUOTE] This depends on the context. If you're fighting to protect something to hold dear, like your family, or have a reasonable explanation, sure; go right ahead. But if you're doing it for the sake of war, to conquer other countries or out of blind devotion without any logical thinking, then I would call said fighting 'stupid'/

Religion is a belief. No one should ever not stand up for what they believe is right. The moment we do, we start having powerful figures that dictate to us what is right and wrong to suit their own interests. However, the moment where standing up causes injustice to another party is the moment that standing up becomes just another injustice.

[QUOTE=erazor;38598257]Assuming that: 1. Your God is real 2. Your religion's teachings are correct Aren't these parameters valid for all religious people? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be the right thing to do as long as your religion tells you to do it.[/QUOTE] Well, of course, if your religion tells you that you must fight for it, then it will be right in your religion's moral system. That's just tautological. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Smashing Good;38599011]This depends on the context. If you're fighting to protect something to hold dear, like your family, or have a reasonable explanation, sure; go right ahead. But if you're doing it for the sake of war, to conquer other countries or out of blind devotion [B]without any logical thinking[/B], then I would call said fighting 'stupid'/[/QUOTE] Well, you can't really do anything without any logical thinking. I think you're confusing "logical thinking" with thinking that agrees with your ideas. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Ekko;38598979]To find out if a religion is worth finding for lets look at why religions are created and why people follow them. This is probably allready very obvious, but I am just gonna write it anyway. 1. Why are they created? Back in the day, I mean way back in the day, people lived quite dangerous lives. It was common to get sick and die quite early in life. People barely lived beyond 60 and many had to fight for certain causes. Emperors all over the world wanted to unite their people for different causes such as fighting and taking over other countries so that the wealth could increase and so that the emperors themselves could sit in their position for as long as possible. [B]They wanted more power[/B] so they had to [B]act as a messenger for something greater[/B] than themselves and their people (because its actually very hard to just convince someone that they should only listen to you). Speaking on behalf of something much greater than an ordinary human was a great idea, and so they did what so many had done before in so many variations. [B]Manipulating the peoples thoughts by using respected wise men with supposedly logical explanations for things that couldn't be explained before. [/B] These wise men made the religions we have today through convincing the common people that there was a greater being looking over their lives. This was quite easy since people weren't very intelligent back then and those who were, used it mostly for their own good. We don't have to go in to detail about why they first started to believe it because thats quite obvious. D[B]o what the great being tells you to and you will live a good life on earth and in the afterlife.[/B] This has been done throughout the centuries but the last hundreads of years it has changed dramaticly as people's lives got better. It's now mostly about love and peace, but still religious leaders use it to manipulate their people. [B]So in the end this means that religions were made to establish groups which fought for earthly causes so that everyone in the group could be rewarded by the great creature/creatures that the wise men said exists. The groups were the religions, and the religions that won trough brutal wars became the right religion to believe in. It's as simple as that.[/B][/QUOTE] First, no. When religion started there were no "emperors". The social hierarchy consisted of people who were in charge of performing specific actions and those who commanded them (tribe leaders or, later, Chiefs). People [I]wanted[/I] to be commanded, because they alone wouldn't know what to do and they wouldn't be able to survive. We were originally social, we didn't need something to join us "artificially." Also, it is not the case that tribes' leaders were always religious leaders. Most of the times, tribes share their religion while maintaining a quasi-egalitarian hierarchy. [QUOTE]2. So why do people nowadays still believe what the wise men told their ancestors? People go with the flow of tradition. [U][B]Tradition creates ignorance, traditon also creates denial, but most of all it creates people who our bound by religion.[/B][/U] It's just so normal to believe in a religon when your parents and grandparents taught you to believe in theirs. I don't know how most people feel about religion, but I bet that in this time of age, people will likely believe in what they are taught at school and what the media shows them. Drawing logical conclusions from facts provided by other facts actually adds up when you look at the big scale of things in science. You can't make things add up in religion, when you add in things that are proven to be physically impossible in so many ways, but thats why its holy, and greater than ourselves. I don't remember what made me question my belief in God, but it probably has to do with growing up and understanding the world trough science. But who knows, maybe the scientists are the wise men this time around? [B]So the conclusion is that there is no good reason to fight over religions other than to help out our great leaders and create false hope. [/B][/QUOTE] Ok, that's just stupid. Saying tradition causes "denial" and "people who are bound by religion" would be saying that you are in denial and bounded by religion, because [I]you also grew in a certain tradition[/I]. Even science is part of tradition, the tradition of western culture to be more specific. We can only know the things that we know [I]because we're immersed in a certain tradition.[/I] And we always learn things from a certain point of view which is constituted by our tradition. For example, I can identify that you are really influenced by ideas belonging to the Modern tradition (late Renaissance and Enlightenment, to be more specific) because you regard tradition as "harmful." I can also infer that you got those ideas from scientificist's views and not directly from Bacon or Descartes or some thinker of the Age of Enlightenment. But I know that those thinkers influenced contemporary prejudices against tradition through their philosophy.

You should be entitled to any religion you want to believe in. There should be no fights.

[QUOTE=SnowTiger86;38633998]You should be entitled to any religion you want to believe in. There should be no fights.[/QUOTE] That is not going to bring us anywhere. I think the question should be, "Is fighting for the truth, and the good that comes with it, right?" to which I would say Hell yes.

[QUOTE=matsta;38596756]Ok, so if, let's say, someone takes you country and establishes a dictatorship, you would just let that happen?[/QUOTE] If nobody fought than we wouldn't have psychotic dictators. But in the real world, yeah we should overthrow him.

[QUOTE=matsta;38583557]Also, yes, Israel vs. Palestine is not just about religion, but about territory, resources, culture in general, etc. so it shouldn't be used as an example in this thread.[/QUOTE] That might be true, but the territory is an society problem. The culture is different because it's two different ethnic religious groups. It's generally an episode of something that wouldn't been that of a disaster if the religion wasn't in the play. Some people take it way to serious, and cut on wrong cable and you make the whole thing explode. (Not to bang but Muslim groups tend to do this way to often these days.)

Since the ultimate goal of most religions is internal peace or acceptance by some god due to righteous action, I don't see how religious zealots could justify fighting over what is supposedly holy ground. Wouldn't Jesus/Mohammad/etc. rather have their people share the land? With the exception of people who worship Mars or Ares, which AFAIK is no one, war is murder, and murder is something that garners divine punishment.

Like all other fighting, it depends, sometimes fighting over religion in necessary, as in cases of the wars brought about by the Protestant movement, in cases where people are persecuted for practicing their own religions, then yes I think protest and eventually fighting is justified, as with any other right people should stand for their freedom of religion. But, "Holy Wars" like the crusades (which were really more about resources and just used religion as an excuse anyway), and some of the more modern Islamist insurgencies, no, because those are for the exact opposite purpose, to force your beliefs on others and suppress their rights.

Personally, I think religion has done it's course and is currently holding the world by it's claws while being slowly but surely sucked into a black hole. We can live perfectly well without it. We don't need this imaginary friend comforting us when we bury our dad and son at the same day. We have medicine, support groups, we can use real life to move on within it, not a creature we made up to comfort and justify our every move. I also think people have corrupted religion, instilling fear and exploitation within it. [QUOTE=wug;38573211]The only religion i deem as stupid is islam. As a person who's been punched in the throat for eating beef, i can safely say some of those muslims are fucking insane. Others can be fine, when they're not violently attacking you for disagreeing with them.[/QUOTE] Jews can't: -Eat bacon or any pork product. -Eat any seafood outside of specific fish. -Eat most beasts. -Eat any bird unless the Bible says they can. -Eat any kosher meat not slaughtered in the traditional way. -Do ANYTHING that requires fire, electricity or working from Friday's twillight to Saturday night's first star. -Eat or drink anything for 25 hours 5-6 times a year. -Let Goyim(non-Jews) make their food. -Have sex with their wife for 7 days after the period. -Have sex without trying for a baby. -Not try for a baby for over 2 years. -In many areas of life, be near a woman who is not their fiance/wife/direct family member. There's more, especially if you're Chassidic. I'm an ex-Jew, so I can't tell a lot about Christians. Edit: As an Israeli, I can tell you this conflict is much, much more complicated and sickeningly idiotic than you would believe.

Looks like somebody wanted to make some people's life only that much more difficult.

i personally believe you have a right to discuss your views, and defend your views, but if someone is belligerent enough, that won't matter because they believe they are right, and especially with religion, they will think no matter what you say, you are wrong. however using violence to force your religion or eliminate someone else's religion is something i disagree with, and if more people in the world learned to not give 2 shits about what other people believe in, maybe the world would be a little better place

my vote goes towards it isn't right to physically fight for religion. i will admit that i am predisposed to a religion that says we should turn the other cheek, and i am an American and i believe in free speech and religion, so others are free to disagree

Fighting for the good of people (and others) is always right.

People should not be fighting each other. Sadly that is how we are, and stupid enough to fight each other for our imaginary friends.

[QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;38679906]People should not be fighting each other. Sadly that is how we are, and stupid enough to fight each other for our imaginary friends.[/QUOTE] Not just because of our imaginary friends, but because of different ways of life. A good Muslim person somewhere in the East person would not approve of relentless crap-food consumerism, not to mention alcohol and medicine (ab)use, inappropriate or just plain provocative clothing and fads, the porn industry, etc. And I have to say I would agree to some extent.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38681090]Not just because of our imaginary friends, but because of different ways of life. A good Muslim person somewhere in the East person would not approve of relentless crap-food consumerism, not to mention alcohol and medicine (ab)use, inappropriate or just plain provocative clothing and fads, the porn industry, etc. And I have to say I would agree to some extent.[/QUOTE] Basically yes. My imaginary friend says that masturbation is bad, thus I want to chop your hand for what you have done in your own privacy. Hey! What are you doing with that girl that you haven't been assigned to? Time to kill her for dishonoring our family.

In my personal opinion I think fighting for something that you cannot prove using the scientific method, and relies entirely on faith and contradictory texts is sick and depraved. In any other situation most would call you insane or a vicious sociopath for killing in the name of some other cause; how is religion any different? We look at someone like Anders Breivik and naturally we would all be inclined to agree that he is a very unstable individual who did horrible things backed by his ultra-Christian and conspiratorial beliefs. The same could be said about the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York City. Though, Islamic extremism is often times cited as the sole reason for the attacks, there were more political motivations involved; IE, the Western involvement in middle eastern politics. (Israel, Palestine, etc) I'm not saying that religious people are inclined to be violent and that Atheists can get off the hook, but this simply isn't the case. Humankind, like any other social species does have violent tendencies; we're just smart enough to kill each other over ideologies and such. Back to the main point though; is it ok to fight for religious beliefs? Absolutely not; in fact, it should be viewed with great resentment.

For me, fighting isn't wrong, and fighting for your beliefs as well should not be condemned. You are an extremely naive person if you believe you will never have to fight or defend yourself from other humans or ideologies. You say fighting for a belief is wrong, what if that belief is your atheism and a religion is fighting to oppress it? You people act like it is not natural to fight over things that are based on the unseen, when animals fight over territories and leadership roles every single day. Fighting is integrated into our lives and into nature, and to embrace the theory of evolution is to embrace the very idea that fighting is a part of our lives. Survival of the fittest ring any bells? The fact is, we all must fight whether it be physically or ethically, or we will drown under the beings who do decide to fight and overwhelm us, simply because we have some moral disposition keeping us from striking back. You should focus less on the actual fighting and more on obtaining balance and respect when fighting, and knowing which fights are the ones you should participate in, and that boils down to you as an individual. We can never truly classify anything as "right" or "wrong", because the whole concept is of human origin, and not something you can apply to life as a whole.

[QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;38686402]Basically yes. My imaginary friend says that masturbation is bad, thus I want to chop your hand for what you have done in your own privacy. Hey! What are you doing with that girl that you haven't been assigned to? Time to kill her for dishonoring our family.[/QUOTE] Chopping people's hands off is not something I would agree with, but yes masturbation is bad.

[QUOTE=Nichy;38663516]Personally, I think religion has done it's course and is currently holding the world by it's claws while being slowly but surely sucked into a black hole. We can live perfectly well without it. We don't need this imaginary friend comforting us when we bury our dad and son at the same day. We have medicine, support groups, we can use real life to move on within it, not a creature we made up to comfort and justify our every move. I also think people have corrupted religion, instilling fear and exploitation within it. Jews can't: -Eat bacon or any pork product. -Eat any seafood outside of specific fish. -Eat most beasts. -Eat any bird unless the Bible says they can. -Eat any kosher meat not slaughtered in the traditional way. -Do ANYTHING that requires fire, electricity or working from Friday's twillight to Saturday night's first star. -Eat or drink anything for 25 hours 5-6 times a year. -Let Goyim(non-Jews) make their food. -Have sex with their wife for 7 days after the period. -Have sex without trying for a baby. -Not try for a baby for over 2 years. -In many areas of life, be near a woman who is not their fiance/wife/direct family member. There's more, especially if you're Chassidic. I'm an ex-Jew, so I can't tell a lot about Christians. Edit: As an Israeli, I can tell you this conflict is much, much more complicated and sickeningly idiotic than you would believe.[/QUOTE] From what I hear and my low level of GCSE religious education, most of these are unobserved traditions in most developed societies. I doubt a follower of the jewish faith is going to eat food prepared by non-jews, and if I recall the pork/bacon thing is mainly due to middle east pigs being laden with all kinds of salmonella and nasties. The teaching is, some say, is a rational warning not to eat pork.