Noah Caldwell-Gervais - Postal, Hatred, and Weighing the Worth of Asshole Simulators
73 replies, posted
it's better to think of toxic masculinity as just straight up hedonism. The whole thing with 'toxic masculinity burned down my car' was just giving context to what the phrase means although tbh it was kind of unnecessary.
The point he's trying to make (and imo does a kind of bad job of it) is that Postal 2 only works purely to allow the player to fulfill a self-centered fantasy where anything the player does is ultimately somewhat justified, even if it is mean. It's the game equivalent of a strawman argument, every NPC is shown as so stupid and suburban that they are almost asking to be killed by the player. Postal 2's gameplay can purely be described as just 'toxic masculinity', having fun at the severe misfortune of someone else ie being an asshole.
He's trying to argue that the game isn't really impressive for any other reason than seeing the sheer amount of people it can possibly offend. Mechanically it's not that great of a shooter, and it's writing is completely juvenile and meant to be offensive by displaying stereotypes as opposed to being some kind of commentary and poking fun at stereotypes. Even the non-violent methods are just a way for the devs to take the piss out of anyone that calls the game violent. It just doesn't do anything other than making the player feel good about being a dickhead and going on a murder spree.
I both agree and disagree with his argument. I don't hate Postal 2 and I think it does have a place, but I think what he says about the game is somewhat interesting and I can see where it's coming from. [U]I guess it's just better to think of him saying "Postal 2 is not a satire" as opposed to "Postal 2 is bad".[/U]
[QUOTE=cdr248;49098285]
I both agree and disagree with his argument. I don't hate Postal 2 and I think it does have a place, but I think what he says about the game is somewhat interesting and I can see where it's coming from. [U]I guess it's just better to think of him saying "Postal 2 is not a satire" as opposed to "Postal 2 is bad".[/U][/QUOTE]
But he all but says the game is bad at couple point. I mean once he gets to Postal 3 the video from that point on is all about how bad the games are and how the devs are douchebags.
On another note, did he even discuss Hatred at all beyond in passing to rant on RWS and their games? Because if it did I must have fuckin missed that section of the video and I watched the whole thing.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;49099682]But he all but says the game is bad at couple point. I mean once he gets to Postal 3 the video from that point on is all about how bad the games are and how the devs are douchebags.
On another note, did he even discuss Hatred at all beyond in passing to rant on RWS and their games? Because if it did I must have fuckin missed that section of the video and I watched the whole thing.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that is the problem. His argument is far more agreeable if he rephrased it to critique the game's humor as opposed to just the game as a whole. But since the only thing Postal 2's got going for it is its sense of humor, I guess it really is just a bad game.
Like, bad in the objective sense where it doesn't really do anything good, but bad in a way where it doesn't really matter how bad it is. Postal 2 is a novelty. And since he's measuring the 'worth' of Postal 2, he's kind of right in saying that it's not really worth much as a novelty. The game isn't known at all for being a 'good' game but for being a ridiculously offensive one that's fun to mess around with and laugh at how insane it is.
I'd say it's kind of like criticizing Gone Home for being a bad game because it doesn't do anything impressive (or anything at all) as a video game and its only claim to fame is that it's ""well-written"" despite being heavily reliant on nostalgia and doesn't really have a groundbreaking narrative for a video game or even a movie or book. Neither game is technically a 'good' game and the only thing they do 'succeed' at isn't really well done either.
So I finally got around to watching this. I thought this was a video about "asshole simulators", not about how much this guy dislikes RWS and Gamergate. Guess I was wrong.
[QUOTE=Marphy Black;49090189]I can confirm that much that was said about the POSTAL series and Running With Scissors is incorrect.[/QUOTE]
...Like?
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
Nevermind, read your youtube comment. Cool shit.
Regarding the video, what he had to say about satire is spot on.
What a poncy name "Noah Caldwell Gervais" like what cunt?
[QUOTE=Warriorx4;49100265]...Like?[/QUOTE]The author's remarks are littered with inaccuracies. He states with full conviction what the developers feel and think and hinges his arguments on these assertions, but being among the developers in question, I can tell you these claims are demonstrably false, and that is quite a blow to the fundamentals of his points. He plainly stated in a comment that Vince and Milo "are pals." Vince doesn't know who Milo is. [i]I[/i] don't know who Milo is.
^That's fine if you correct the inaccuracies of his assumptions of your team. But when you go on to say this about his assertion that you're wasting your time: "That's unfortunate, as I don't feel I've wasted my time watching this video, reading the responses, and providing my own feedback. That said, though, it seems we've hit a dead end as the exchange has ended before it even began. C'est la vie, I suppose," but haven't actually addressed his points in the video about the contextualization of violence in video games in regards to the Postal franchise, the "satire" present in Postal 2, etc. he is right in saying you are indeed wasting your time and also right in asking "what kind of response do you want?" What did you want him to say that wasn't already in the video? Don't bother telling me the answer, tell him. I agree with the notion that he shouldn't have plodded on about your team's intentions with such an omnipotent attitude about it. That said, what do you want him to apologize or something?
damn normally i like this guy's stuff and how in-depth he goes, but this is just silly.
The criticisms about the series are the same sort of criticisms leveled against Saint's Row 3's brand of humor. "What was the point of that wacky random shit?" If the entire point was there ISN'T one, that it's all good fun, then indeed you had two options best to handle this: Not respond at all, or call him an idiot and leave it at that.
[QUOTE=Warriorx4;49100515]That said, what do you want him to apologize or something?[/QUOTE]The one thing I did kindly request was a spoiler warning for the ending of Paradise Lost. Note that I did not ask this for myself but on the behalf of the viewers, [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/3s6yao/postal_hatred_and_weighing_the_worth_of_asshole/cwv2ac7]as he's already managed to spoil the end for others[/url]. Unless I'm missing a new annotation or something, I have yet to see any actions carried out on the manner. However, I know now he has been reading my comments, so since he had willfully rejected my request (which I don't think was unreasonable on any objective level), I assumed he had more on the table to offer and was formulating a response to justify his judgment. Apparently, though, he just doesn't care and doesn't want to bother with anything further on the subject. That's an odd position to take seeing as he was the one who initiated the discussion, or at least what I believed was an invitation to a discussion. Why continue to address points when I've been preemptively handwaved off? As it stands, the video exists, and it cannot be debated because the debate has ended, the debate being the video itself.
^In the very same post you linked I'm seeing one comment saying they don't care about the narrative of Postal 2 and another mocking the notion of caring about any sort of narrative in Postal 2. I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish in linking that. Another still brings up a point that if you haven't already played the game but are watching an hour long analysis of it then you have naught but yourself to blame.
If you consider yourself preemptively being hand-waved off, perhaps you should consider he felt the same when RWS tweeted the video sarcastically calling him "triggered?" Going further, if you truly want to dialogue about this you should probably just message him directly. If you don't care then whatever let's just stop talking. I think it's very much worth discussing the assertion that Paradise Lost fails as an expansion, and all the other shit brought up about failed satire, and the premise of violence vs its execution and context. But if you just wanna defend your company fellows, which is fine, we've got nothing else to talk about. Nor do I think you have anything else with him to talk about.
I think Postal 2 is kind of what would happen if edgy 13 year old me tried to make a South Park game, 5 years on I see the actual value in the social satirizing but back then it was just toilet humour and 'screaming fuck everything!'. Having said that I love that we're getting so much analysis out of a game that actively tries not to be art, it's just beautifully ironic.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;49100771]I think Postal 2 is kind of what would happen if edgy 13 year old me tried to make a South Park game, 5 years on I see the actual value in the social satirizing but back then it was just toilet humour and 'screaming fuck everything!'. Having said that I love that we're getting so much analysis out of a game that actively tries not to be art, it's just beautifully ironic.[/QUOTE]
And then hes praised for it.
This game is effectively a counter-culture poke in the eye and nothing more. I swear he calls people who like the game, or like similar ones bad people - but maybe he just strongly implied it, but regardless, hes lost a subscription.
If this "masculine" culture in these games seeps into peoples minds and causes them to alter real life behavior, those people are what I like to call insane [and or warped], and should be treated as such. If all games were like Postal 2, that would suck. But they aren't.
Not all games need to be climatic masterpieces.
[QUOTE=Warriorx4;49100690]I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish in linking that.[/quote]The request for a spoiler warning was not a demand to satisfy my desires but a request to serve the benefit of the viewers, and that post is an illustration that this is a genuine concern as expressed by someone who actually befell the trap. And, unless my nonexistent Reddit skills are misleading me, it seems the voting there is in agreement with the proposed suggestion and disagreement with the converse. You don't care about the game? That's fine. The video author doesn't care about the game? That's fine. The video author doesn't care about what the subjects of his video have to say about the game? That's fine. But the request pertained to no one in this group. It's a matter of consideration for the unwitting viewer who will be affected, and speaking both as a developer and producer of goofy videos myself, I have an infinite amount of gratitude for those who entertain my output (even those who receive it negatively). I wouldn't hesitate to honor an entirely reasonable inquiry such as this, no matter who made it or how. One might call it simple common courtesy, and it would a fix that could be achieved through the most trivial of video annotations, but the author denied even that. This is perplexing to me, as this doesn't hurt those he detests but rather those who have taken the time to listen to his analysis. Pardon my harsh language, but that seems a little bit disrespectful of his audience. They did nothing to deserve his ire, yet he is only adversely affecting them with this action.
"The request for a spoiler warning was not a demand to satisfy my desires but a request to serve the benefit of the viewers, and that post is an illustration that this is a genuine concern as expressed by someone who actually befell the trap."
^That's something you should probably be telling him not me. However if you are so set on not continuing discussion with him or about the things that are actually interesting, then again, we should probably stop talking.
[QUOTE=Mister_Jack;49100182]So I finally got around to watching this. I thought this was a video about "asshole simulators", not about how much this guy dislikes RWS and Gamergate. Guess I was wrong.[/QUOTE]
Beyond the feeling I get that this video is nothing more than an excuse for the creator to parade his perceived understanding of what he believes is the quintessential basement-dwelling comicbook-reading pimply male teenager power fantasy, the video is really all over the place. It only goes on for an hour, but really it can be broken up into several parts none of which have much to do with one another.
The first bit is about Postal and the political climate surrounding games in the late 90's and how from a different perspective you might not find these games funny. He held it together for about 20 minutes. The second bit he's way too eager to inject his cherry picking from neoliberal ideology into the mix and shoehorn in what he thought was a brilliant connection with his "toxic masculinity" piece. After that he rambles about how shit Postal 3 is. Then it's on to what amounts to "RWS is shit and everyone who thinks this is cool needs to GROW UP," like he thinks he's Jim Sterling doing a grandiose hit piece exposing what horrible people the devs are. Lastly he touches on Hatred and starts a tirade about how Gamergaters are babies and they're all fools for buying into this type of media.
These are fine talking points, and he does raise a few decent arguments. However nothing in his video has a common theme. It's just him rambling about one thing for a few minutes then ranting about something else for a few more with no direction or connection to his previous or overlying points. There's no common theme to all of his talking points other than "stuff I don't like" which makes it pretty grating if you're not really into this guy already, I guess. ALSO the audio mixing is shit and he desperately needs to invest in a better microphone if he's going to be going on for hours at a time.
If you want an example of what I'm talking about when I say common running themes and talking points, refer to this
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV16ROaHVfo[/media]
This guy goes on for almost five times as long and is much much more cohesive and composed in the way he presents his material. He refers to other works and his own throughout the video and brings several key ideas back to relate to the subject at hand. This, son, is how you critically analyze. Not this bullshit personal attacks and acting snooty about your perceived enlightenment while giving backhanded compliments and attempting to criticize the attitude at its core rather than its application in the media you're supposed to be covering.
Lord help this guy.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mister_Jack;49100910]Beyond the feeling I get that this video is nothing more than an excuse for the creator to parade his perceived understanding of what he believes is the quintessential basement-dwelling comicbook-reading pimply male teenager power fantasy, the video is really all over the place. [/QUOTE]
AND I find it funny that he begins by kicking himself for being such an edgy idiot teenager and thinking he knew better than everyone else, then goes on to imply that he's now a fully developed 20-something who actually now knows better than everyone else.
[QUOTE=Incoming.;49100800]And then hes praised for it.
This game is effectively a counter-culture poke in the eye and nothing more. I swear he calls people who like the game, or like similar ones bad people - but maybe he just strongly implied it, but regardless, hes lost a subscription.
If this "masculine" culture in these games seeps into peoples minds and causes them to alter real life behavior, those people are what I like to call insane [and or warped], and should be treated as such. If all games were like Postal 2, that would suck. But they aren't.
Not all games need to be climatic masterpieces.[/QUOTE]
He clarifies quite a number of times throughout the video that people who like Postal and Hatred aren't bad people.
Alright, I've gone through this guys argument, and I can only conclude he is mad at himself for liking the game so much as a kid. Maybe even liking it for the wrong reasons.
It's the only logical explanation for the almost personal hatred for everything that is Postal. Even Hatred, a game that I actually find a tad bit disturbing [mentally, that is] is much less direct and confrontational. He says its Postal, but even more Postal than Postal was, and that's what I find the gist of it is.
Criticizing Postal for what Postal is [in my interpretation of the game], falls right in line with what Postal feels like: A massive backlash toward the overly protective attitude of the media and video games at the time. Something that took 10 years more to even see a less hostile reception on mainstream media.
It is literally trying to piss people off. Noah is now part of the people it has enraged and, for all intents and purposes, it seems to have done so, with a vengeance.
He often claims this will hurt peoples feelings, points out specifically [and often] women and middle easterners being part of this. He specifically states "Can you imagine playing this game and being from the middle east?" My question is why he keeps referencing these specific people, likely to be outraged. In reality, this game was not only a result of the time frame, but a niche game for a vastly different market. At that time, I highly doubt people of that background would be interested. He goes off the deep end regarding GamerGate, and frankly I'm unimpressed by how intolerant he is himself with regards to this. The setting means nothing to him. Literally every single thing is a stereotype, a trope, or obnoxious in this game. "A sexist joke is still a sexist joke", yes, that's right. Good thing I don't tell them every 2 seconds to girls, good thing aforementioned sexist joke can be silenced by closing down the game, good thing most people who play these games don't take them to heart.
His main point is that he just doesn't find it funny. That's it. He can complicate it all he wants, he can put as many syllables, nouns and pronouns in front of it, but that's the crux of this opinion piece.
Humor is as subjective as you can get. John Cleese didn't find the "silly walk" to be particularly funny. In fact, from the sounds of it, it was his version of Stairway to Heaven. [Led Zepplin infamously hate that song] He tries to spin the fact that all of the characters are a stereotype, thus the message is lost, when in reality it isn't.
We have real life to compare to.
He tries pulling a personal punch: "All gamers are fat male virgins, living in basements" he says. "What if all the gamers in a movie were this?" This is a flawed question. This is so flawed, that it must be staring him in the face. Context. The key is context. You don't buy Postal 2 to take it seriously. If Stanley Kubrick decided to shove a few dozen stereotyped gamers in his last movie, appropriately from 1999, it might grind my gears a bit. Its a serious piece of media, not to mention it is very deliberate in almost every way.
Meanwhile, if you took a modern comedy and did that, like those ones old SNL characters move onto, it wouldn't phase me an ounce. I would laugh along with them, assuming the joke was good. I don't get all weird and angry, go off and make a rant[I] the length of the movie [/I]and plaster it on youtube.
The only people that would go on Postal 2, consider it non-satire, don't see the immature, ridiculous mindset of this game and at least tolerate others in doing things, that in real life are amoral and twisted, are people who either care too much, or are [B][I]racist already[/I][/B].
He admits to liking it in his "hate filled teen years", but does everyone fit this mold? I can only hear him referencing hypothetical, hateful in itself, biased monologues, or his own, self declared despise of all around him! Not to mention the default "It's a jooooke, get over it." like a guy who walks up to you in a bar, only cracks jokes about how awful the United States is and won't go away, even when it is insisted by others.
He is generalizing the people that he claims are generalizing others. You dare infringe on anyone's feelings and this virulent, critic driven, intolerant backlash swings back. Only this time, it was 12 years late.
Am I calling him a bad person? No. You may even consider me dead wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that this is something almost made specifically to make people angry. Going on a tangent for 1 and a half hours over it, the games like it, and the people who make them, give them far too much credit and weight in the real life ramifications of it.
edit
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;49100964]He clarifies quite a number of times throughout the video that people who like Postal and Hatred aren't bad people.[/QUOTE]
You can push that line all you want, but it doesn't change the fact he was extremely condescending to both developers and gamers. This leaves the viewer to interpret just what traits are to be condescending towards.
Honestly all of this doesn't surprise me from this idiot who thought World at War was a super patriotic America-Fuck-Yeah game.
The way I see it is that instead of analyzing the game and its ideas, he forces his ideas onto it while trying to justify them with what happens in the game. The whole angst rant was him forcing his view onto the game, nothing else. Same with his rant about toxic masculinity. He uses experiences from his life to create a narrative that exists in his world alone instead of trying to look beyond that.
This is not how you analyze a game or its content. It's far too personal and biased at this point. He simply uses the game as a tool to push his own idea of how things are or should be, not how the game presents them. Awfully close minded for someone who seems to be progressive and liberal. A common occurrence among such people actually. Now that is irony.
I always thought one of the best videos covering Postal 2 was this one
[video=youtube;RhMRKReXWSg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMRKReXWSg[/video]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;49101555]The way I see it is that instead of analyzing the game and its ideas, he forces his ideas onto it while trying to justify them with what happens in the game. The whole angst rant was him forcing his view onto the game, nothing else. Same with his rant about toxic masculinity. He uses experiences from his life to create a narrative that exists in his world alone instead of trying to look beyond that.
This is not how you analyze a game or its content. It's far too personal and biased at this point. He simply uses the game as a tool to push his own idea of how things are or should be, not how the game presents them. Awfully close minded for someone who seems to be progressive and liberal. A common occurrence among such people actually. Now that is irony.[/QUOTE]
As poor as his argument is, he's still somewhat right in concept. Id be baffled to hear anyone say that Postal 2 is more than just an 'asshole simulator' meant purely to provoke a reaction.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
The words he uses to decribe things are stupidly loaded but there's still a semblance of truth to them, Postal 2 doesnt do much other than being a GTA rampage with poor humor, its liked simply for the novelty of pissing on people and using cat butts as silencers
[QUOTE=cdr248;49102297]As poor as his argument is, he's still somewhat right in concept. Id be baffled to hear anyone say that Postal 2 is more than just an 'asshole simulator' meant purely to provoke a reaction.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
The words he uses to decribe things are stupidly loaded but there's still a semblance of truth to them, Postal 2 doesnt do much other than being a GTA rampage with poor humor, its liked simply for the novelty of pissing on people and using cat butts as silencers[/QUOTE]
While Postal 2 is an asshole simulator, you don't actually have to be an asshole. You don't even need to kill any people.
[QUOTE=Destroyox;49101187]Honestly all of this doesn't surprise me from this idiot who thought World at War was a super patriotic America-Fuck-Yeah game.[/QUOTE]
Oh god is this the same guy as the one from that wretched COD series review?
The one where he proclaimed that only orchestral music can be used to convey the horror of a situation.
Also the guy who implied that everyone in the armed forces today are glory hounds,
[QUOTE=cdr248;49102297]As poor as his argument is, he's still somewhat right in concept. Id be baffled to hear anyone say that Postal 2 is more than just an 'asshole simulator' meant purely to provoke a reaction.
[/QUOTE]
Of course Postal 2 is an asshole game, but so what? Is it now wrong to play as an asshole or something? I thought the whole point of videogames was to play as someone you're not. He's not wrong but it's a moot point.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49102297]As poor as his argument is, he's still somewhat right in concept. Id be baffled to hear anyone say that Postal 2 is more than just an 'asshole simulator' meant purely to provoke a reaction.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
The words he uses to decribe things are stupidly loaded but there's still a semblance of truth to them, Postal 2 doesnt do much other than being a GTA rampage with poor humor, its liked simply for the novelty of pissing on people and using cat butts as silencers[/QUOTE]
it blatantly, obviously is an asshole simulator, but basically everything else you said there is wrong
[QUOTE=Kegan;49101915]I always thought one of the best videos covering Postal 2 was this one
[video=youtube;RhMRKReXWSg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMRKReXWSg[/video][/QUOTE]
This guy with 7k subs has higher production values than most with 100k+ that like to do little editorials on gaming subjects.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49102297]As poor as his argument is, he's still somewhat right in concept. Id be baffled to hear anyone say that Postal 2 is more than just an 'asshole simulator' meant purely to provoke a reaction.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
The words he uses to decribe things are stupidly loaded but there's still a semblance of truth to them, Postal 2 doesnt do much other than being a GTA rampage with poor humor, its liked simply for the novelty of pissing on people and using cat butts as silencers[/QUOTE]
Further compounded is that's not really his thesis, it's a furtherance of well RWS are racist privileged raconteurs spewing their agenda, and that's why this series of games "just doesn't get it, it's too much, too deliberate, too mean-spirited and spiteful" yet ME3 is an "honest mistake, y'all can't be mad", which is droll considering postal never marketed itself as something it wasn't, ever, and then goes off on a rant how Depression Quest was such a labor of hard work and is underappreciated in a world were [I]this[/I] game exists.
:|
Then it becomes personal, as if he knows the people involved, when RWS really are good peeps, except for Slappy Cromwell, fuck that guy.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;49102440]While Postal 2 is an asshole simulator, you don't actually have to be an asshole. You don't even need to kill any people.[/QUOTE]
Even that is mostly just to say 'gotcha!' to anyone that criticizes the game for being overly violent.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=elowin;49102835]it blatantly, obviously is an asshole simulator, but basically everything else you said there is wrong[/QUOTE]
From what I've played, I don't know what to describe it as really. It's just going from Point A to B by either killing stuff or not killing stuff and sometimes there is a cutscene every once in a while.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=27X;49103088]Further compounded is that's not really his thesis, it's a furtherance of well RWS are racist privileged raconteurs spewing their agenda, and that's why this series of games "just doesn't get it, it's too much, too deliberate, to mean-spirited and spiteful" yet ME3 is an "honest mistake, y'all can't be mad", which is droll considering postal never marketed itself as something it wasn't, ever, and then goes off on a rant how Depression Quest was such a labor of hard work and is underappreciated in a world were [i]this[/i] game exists.
:|
Then it becomes personal, as if he knows the people involved, when RWS really are good peeps, except for Slappy Cromwell, fuck that guy.[/QUOTE]
I'll admit that I am ignoring half of his 'argument' because it is just irrational hate towards the developers. I think even he didn't really know what he was arguing about so I'm repurposing some of his actual points to posit this: Is Postal 2 really deserving of praise? Is it even a good game?
I'd argue that [I]technically [/I]it's not really a good game but in the end it doesn't really matter at all because Postal is just Postal.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
also tbh Mass Effect 3 was a bit of an honest mistake. It was supposed to be the culimination of all the player's actions and ultimately the end of one of the most praised RPG series of recent memory as well as being the end of on of the most anticipated games of the year. I can't think of any form of media that has been able to successfully end on a good note which somehow didn't land below the expectations of the fans. It was doomed to disappoint, I doubt Bioware could've saved it.
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