Jimmy Kimmel Introduces DACA Opponents to Dreamers - General

I'm not even against DACA but I hate the blatant emotional manipulation in this video.

[quote=srobins]I also noticed how angry the black lady in the back row got when she was talking about healthcare. She was shaking when she said "I didn't have healthcare too and [I]I lost my eye![/I]", as if it was somehow the DACA girl's fault that America's healthcare system fucked her over and caused her to lose her eye? [b]It was like, "my life sucked, so yours should too!"[/b][/QUOTE] This is something that I have just anecdotally observed, when it comes to the divide between conservative and liberal thought-processes. When a person A is presented a situation where some negative thing happened to them (such as losing an eye due to not having healthcare), and that same situation is threatening to happen to a person B: If person A is [b]liberal[/b], then they are more likely to think along the lines of "No one was able to help me when this bad thing happened to me, and I don't want anyone else to go through that like I did." If person A is [b]conservative[/b], then they are more likely to think along the lines of "No one was able to help me when this bad thing happened to me, and so no one should help this person either." (though many people who think this way don't like to express their thoughts in this negative way, and so they are likely to rework it to something like "No one was around to help me, so this person should help themselves", or more tongue-in-cheek, "so this person should pull themselves up by their own boostraps.") Obviously, this isn't a blanket generalization - it doesn't apply to all liberals and all conservatives. But it's just been an anecdotal observation I've made that conservatives have a higher likelihood to be "my life sucked, so your life should suck too", and liberals have a higher likelihood to be "my life sucked, but I don't want your life to suck too." Has anyone else noticed this observation? Or am I alone with it? Which may very well be the case - it's not exactly drawn from a huge population sample.

[QUOTE=nox;53099118]You heard him, the Algonquians and Iroquois can stay, everybody else back to Europe.[/QUOTE] We don't want them back

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;53099159]I'm not even against DACA but I hate the blatant emotional manipulation in this video.[/QUOTE] I agree. I sympathize with these people, and I fully support reform to the immigration system in America, but videos like this are gross and scummy to me. It's a blatant appeal to emotion over reason, cherrypicking the most inoffensive, all-American suburbanite DACA family they could find alongside the scummiest shitheaded MAGA family possible. Just because I agree with the end message doesn't mean I approve of presenting the argument in a manipulative way.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53099078]I totally agree that we should keep dreamers that are of value. I'm simply saying deport the ones without.[/QUOTE] Why not deport all americans that aren't 'of value' then?

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53098818]I believe this should be taken by an individual basis that is contingent on your value to the country. If you are contributing to the country; you can stay and earn your citizenship. Those who are not contributing anything should be deported. It was not your country to begin with, even if it was not your choice to come. If we don't lay down the law, people will just keep coming in with no repercussions. We have to draw the line somewhere.[/QUOTE] I'm okay with this as long as you deport anyone who claims welfare, too. After all, if you aren't contributing to the greatness of the country you don't deserve to live there, yeah? You might've been brought here by way of your ancestors emigrating, but it wasn't your country to begin with. If we don't lay down the law people will just keep being lazy without repercussions. We have to draw the line somewhere. Oops, half the South just got deported to the UK and the EU and they claim they're being sent to countries they have never been to and don't belong in. :thinking:

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53099706]You can’t seriously be this obtuse... Natural born Americans were given the right of citizenship. The people coming though the boarder illegally did not receive or deserve the right. America is not obligated to hold this people when they did not come in legally.[/QUOTE] So basically your argument is "Too bad, you should've been born here." Nice.

Everyone has the right to be an American. That's what made America. You can stick your America First nationalist bullshit right back up your ass cuz there's nothing more un-American than denying someone a home because of their place of origin buddy. [editline]1st February 2018[/editline] "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Nobody needs a reason to come to the US other than wanting a better life for themselves or their family. That's because this is America. They don't [I]have[/I] to be doctors and scholars and engineers and scientists. They just have to be human beings looking for a better place. Have you ever even heard the above poem? Do you know which national monument bears these words and why? Does it just not matter to you? [editline]1st February 2018[/editline] It's mind-blowing to me how nobody spouting your line understands nothing but dumb luck put you in the position to say it. You have no more inherent right to this land than anyone else on the planet. You were born here because you won the lottery and got to grow up in this great country - how selfish can you be, to want to deny even a glimmer of the opportunity you got to others? How the fuck can you call yourself an American? If we're gonna start deporting the un-American, let's start with your camp, and we'll pretty much be finished after that. [editline]1st February 2018[/editline] Anyone who comes here from another country, who throws away everything they had at home, and makes a better life for themselves, lives it up, makes the best of our land, plants a stake in this country, is more American than anyone who was born here. Your American-ness isn't measured by how long you've been in the country or where your parents were born. America isn't [I]about[/I] standing on the shoulders of giants and arrogantly sneering at the people groveling at your feet, begging for scraps, to please just be let in for a few months, a year, out of the cold, out of the uncertainty of their home countries. It's about forging better lives through diversity and force of fucking will to make it work for the good of yourself, your family, and everybody else here, in the present, and for the future. You want to live in a safe space where you only see the same friendly smiling white faces for your whole life? [U]You[/U] were born in the wrong country. You're in fucking America. Act like it.

I just don't get how people can blame children for the supposed wrongdoing of their parent. That's blatant bullshit in putting judgement onto people who have no choice in the matter.

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;53099282]This is something that I have just anecdotally observed, when it comes to the divide between conservative and liberal thought-processes. When a person A is presented a situation where some negative thing happened to them (such as losing an eye due to not having healthcare), and that same situation is threatening to happen to a person B: If person A is [b]liberal[/b], then they are more likely to think along the lines of "No one was able to help me when this bad thing happened to me, and I don't want anyone else to go through that like I did." If person A is [b]conservative[/b], then they are more likely to think along the lines of "No one was able to help me when this bad thing happened to me, and so no one should help this person either." (though many people who think this way don't like to express their thoughts in this negative way, and so they are likely to rework it to something like "No one was around to help me, so this person should help themselves", or more tongue-in-cheek, "so this person should pull themselves up by their own boostraps.") Obviously, this isn't a blanket generalization - it doesn't apply to all liberals and all conservatives. But it's just been an anecdotal observation I've made that conservatives have a higher likelihood to be "my life sucked, so your life should suck too", and liberals have a higher likelihood to be "my life sucked, but I don't want your life to suck too." Has anyone else noticed this observation? Or am I alone with it? Which may very well be the case - it's not exactly drawn from a huge population sample.[/QUOTE] It's the core of the fucking conservative-liberal divide. Neither side can understand the other, myself included. I legitimately don't understand how anyone can hold the "Do it with the same shit I had to deal with" instead of "Do it with less shit to deal with"

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53099727]Yes, that’s how citizenship works.[/QUOTE] Just so we have absolute clarity here: Child that was too small to have agency was brought over to America by parents illegally, grew up in the US = "Tough cheese, you're not an American, you need to go back to your country." Anchor baby, someone whose mother exclusively travelled to this country to have a child so it could be American and have a US Passport before being taken back to his/her country to be raised = "Natural Born American, walk right in, here's your little US flag." The irony meter must be broken if fucking Jus Soli, of all things, is what is being used to keep immigrants out, in a land that was filled with immigrants that used this exact same form of citizenship to integrate into the country.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53099972]You’re acting like I’m anti-immigration. I think immigration is a great thing but it needs to be done in a legal manner. America has no obligation to the word citizens for refuge. Crossing the boarder illegally, regardless how bad your life is does not give you the right to break the law. You’re acting like it is America’s duty to let people live here, it’s not, it’s a privilege.[/QUOTE] It's funny how people like you are only concerned with the law when you can twist it against people you don't like. What do you think of the Assault Weapons Ban? I would bet you disagree with it - maybe you're even willing to subvert it actively because it's a violation of your rights and therefore you feel no obligation to obey it - certainly that's the case for a lot of conservatives trapped in states like California. Either way you aren't just going to shrug it off because "it's the law durhur." So why can't I disapprove of draconian anti-immigration laws and be in favor of subverting them where they represent an ethical quandary at best or a human rights violation at worst? "It's the law" isn't an excuse - obviously I don't like the law and I want it changed because the law is contrary to American values - to [I]true[/I] American values. Supporting these laws is un-American. It's not right. It's not justifiable. You can't casually ruin hundreds or thousands of lives - people who are rooted here, or people facing persecution in their homes, or whatever - because "it's the law durhur". You'll have to do better than that to convince this red blooded American boy. Your faux concern for law and order isn't doing it.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100007]Sure, I’ll disagree with it but I’m not subverting the law because I disagree with it. Letting people stay in the country without proper legislation is subverting the law.[/QUOTE] You expect me to believe that you think enforcing unjust, amoral laws is fine just because it's the law?

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100015]Laws are enforced wether you disagree with it or not. I just gave an example with marijuana a few posts ago. Laws are not followed based on your feelings.[/QUOTE] The United States is a democratic country that has several mechanisms in place for changing laws, you don't fucking live in Nazi Germany. These range from voting for the candidate that will represent you in the government to lobbying. Treating laws like they're the word of god is absolutely retarded. [sp]Fun, somewhat related fact: pornography is technically illegal in Ukraine, I commit a felony every time I bust a nut. Luckily this law is not enforceable[/sp]

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100039]That’s exactly what I’m saying. Go push for proper legislation. But when DACA expires and if there is no legislation permitting them to stay, it’s now illegal for them to be here. Am I factually wrong about that?[/QUOTE] That's not as simple, because Trump is using DACA as a bargaining chip for the wall. So you either get DACA and the wall or you get no DACA and no wall. It's like you didn't watch the video, because this was explained in the first minute

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100039]But when DACA expires and if there is no legislation permitting them to stay, it’s now illegal for them to be here. Am I factually wrong about that?[/QUOTE] Yes, that is the problem. To which "enforce the law" isn't the only solution. Laws can be, and are changed all the time. It's not the holy scripture.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100049]If no compromise is made, DACA is not being renewed regardless. Also, I am against a wall. It’s a very inefficient way of boarder security.[/QUOTE] There can be no compromise here. Both wasting billions of dollars on Trump's useless vanity project and exiling people who were raised in America and have nothing back in their parents' country is unacceptable.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;53100203]You haven't answered any of my questions. Yes or no, is your ethical and moral compaas based exclusively on laws? Can you personally feel the effect of dreamers in your day-to-day life? Has this caused you any damages whatsoever? Essentially I'm trying to understand your stake in the game. Why your position is what it is.[/QUOTE] From reading his posts, I think his argument is that Dreamers are here illegally because it is against the law, but because there's so much gridlock in Congress it's not going to be fixed, therefore the law is just; that civilians should not voice displeasure or criticism against unjust laws because we must respect the law 100%. At least, that's the only logical thread I could follow. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, I may not be as factual and logical as skatehawk is.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100219][/QUOTE] Why stop at just dreamers who don't add value? Why not just kick out all the people who don't contribute to society? Seems kinda arbitrary. Maybe the constitution doesn't allow us to treat citizens poorly, so we have to settle for just kicking out the immigrants.

It's convenient how facts and logic cause you to support laws that disproportionately affect and ruin people you dislike anyway. Almost like facts and logic don't enter into it.

Oh boy kümmel rustling jimmies

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100174]My morals are based on facts and logic. It’s a fact that dreamers did not receive the right of citizenship upon birth.[/QUOTE] You are a very special boy, aren't you

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100174]My morals are based on facts and logic. It’s a fact that dreamers did not receive the right of citizenship upon birth.[/QUOTE] Do you think you're capable of making a moral argument or is that too illogical for you?

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100174]My morals are based on facts and logic. It’s a fact that dreamers did not receive the right of citizenship upon birth.[/QUOTE] Every statement you've made in this thread, taken at face value, suggests that your sense of morality is based in laws and laws alone. Let's test this. Let's take this to an extreme. If you were born in Soviet Russia, would you oppose people trying to get out of being sent to the gulags for criticizing Josef Stalin? Because even though you disagree with it, that's the law? If the government passed a law requiring you to become a member of Scientology, would you bend over and take it because "Well, that's the law lol"? Don't try to say "well, that's different." If your position breaks down when taken to its logical conclusion, either it needs to be re-evaluated or that's not what your position actually is at all. We can't let our immigration system get away with boning innocent people in the ass without accountability just because the law says it can. If you're genuinely okay with DREAMers getting deported because of the law alone but not with the hypothetical examples I've given you, then only one reasonable conclusion can be drawn and that is you're rationalizing to cover for something else. In which case, just come out and say it dude. Then we can have a discussion about [I]that[/I] instead of trying to argue with you about a belief you don't actually have. Alternatively, if you really would be willing to take your morals-from-laws position to that extreme...maybe you ought to do some self reflection?

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100174]My morals are based on facts and logic. It’s a fact that dreamers did not receive the right of citizenship upon birth.[/QUOTE] Morals based on logic is also how you get to terms like "the Final Solution". That was a logical solution to the problems Germany was facing almost a century ago, was it not? I'd prefer my morals to be based on human empathy and not a cold obsession with following the letter of the law regardless of the economic damage and human suffering inflicted. [QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100219]People saying we should keep dreamers in that provide no value is ridiculous. Plane and simple.[/QUOTE] Do you know they're providing more value than the average lazy slob of an American teenager? They're motivated to get jobs, pursue higher education, and stay employed, because they're fighting for the right to continue to stay in America and maintain their privileged western lifestyle; the average American teen has no such existential crisis to push them forward and out of their parents' house. They have the birthright to be fat, lazy, and ill-educated - who cares if they're barely capable of reading by the time they graduate high school, they were born here and it's their God-given right to be incompetent lazeabouts and shitty people, but if they were born anywhere else they should be deported no matter what they try and do to contribute, according to skatehawk11's logic. So how about you think about that statement of yours. Also, it's "plain", please learn English if you wish to stay in America. It's only logical. And yes I'm aware America has no official language codified, that's the best part because anti-immigration rhetoric often includes derogatory statements about needing to learn English as if it [I]is[/I] the official language.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53100174]My morals are based on facts and logic. It’s a fact that dreamers did not receive the right of citizenship upon birth.[/QUOTE]Its also a fact that rights aren't naturally occurring but are instead assumed and declared by people using ethical and philosophical principles. There is no logic behind your views, they're simply blind adherence to whatever you're told, and "logic" is not an objective or fact-based system to begin with. "They are here already, it costs more to prosecute and deport them than it does to keep them, and they contribute to our economy. Ergo, logically, they should stay here." "Logic" is a funny, fuzzy, subjective little thing.

[QUOTE=Smug Bastard;53100812]Every statement you've made in this thread, taken at face value, suggests that your sense of morality is based in laws and laws alone. [/QUOTE] It's as if he's compensating for a lack of empathy by setting up a very strict set of guidelines for himself to emulate the ability to socially sympathise and empathise as a way of getting what he wants. Do we have a word for that?

Lmao the way Jimmy says "I think America is cruel" and starts describing the good qualities of these people and literally the entire two rows of anti-DACA guests start babbling all at once over eachother while the one old white guy raises his arm up with "Stop stop stop stop stop" is just hilarious [editline]wtf[/editline] "Can I speak please?" "Yes." "If you receive daca- [I]whichisunconstitutional[/I]- " Jesus christ [editline]wtf[/editline] How can you be so rude??

My favourite part was when the dork on the right in the first row started giving [URL="https://youtu.be/5QY5pLQqIYM?t=366"]that personal anecdote[/URL] that totally wasn't made up, and Jimmy Kimmel stops him and says: "I'm just trying to imagine you as a little boy.... Ya.... I think I can" and then immediately starts taking questions from others. Fucking classic