Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=e_k_M;45124902]i don't think this needs another part because she already made her point and i feel the only thing she'll do in part 2 is going "look!, more games that has disposable women" while saying the same things in part 1[/QUOTE] It's probably to clarify herself and address new points like she did with her DiD video.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45124892]What is so bad about women as background decoration? Women have beautiful bodies [IMG]http://static.bilder-welten.net/pics/64/705964.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/iiRS6CY.jpg[/img] Direct objectifying.

So from what I saw she went into strip clubs and brothels then complained about all the strippers and hookers, complained about strippers and hookers being sexualized even though that's their job irl, completely dismissed important female characters because they're "just in male roles", then went around specifically killing female NPCs in sandbox games where everyone is killable and it's completely optional while trying to spin it as the game being sexist. At this point she's just grasping at straws.

[QUOTE=JustGman;45124925]So from what I saw she went into strip clubs and brothels then complained about all the strippers and hookers, complained about strippers and hookers being sexualized even though that's their job irl, completely dismissed important female characters because they're "just in male roles", then went around specifically killing female NPCs in sandbox games where everyone is killable and it's completely optional while trying to spin it as the game being sexist. At this point she's just grasping at straws.[/QUOTE]Many games don't really need strip club levels. Barely any use those environments for actual storytelling.

as always, she has plenty of valid points but brings up terrible examples for example, she mentions max payne 3 as one of the games that present a "sexualification of impoverished women of color", then shows a clip with nothing but white women. some of the in-game gta examples are also made null when you realize that the entire game is meant to be satirical and purposefully offensive

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45124939]Many games don't really need strip club levels. Barely any use those environments for actual storytelling.[/QUOTE] many games don't need sewer levels but its almost in every game and they mostly look boring and annoying and has no reason to be in the game

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45124939]Many games don't really need strip club levels. Barely any use those environments for actual storytelling.[/QUOTE] Lots of stuff in games isn't used for actual storytelling. There was plenty of other fluff in GTA4 like bars, arcades, and pool places, should all of that go too?

-Ninja'd-

[QUOTE=geogzm;45124792] wanna explain the dumb? women are being better represented by some devs iirc - save your opinions about the game itself, but the latest CoD is reported to integrate women as they would be in real life rather than just having an all-male cast, so if you wanna keep all-around equality, you'll include every aspect of that - how is being able to kill women alongside men a bad thing for equality?[/QUOTE] That's little more than a bandage on the problem. Even if a majority of the cast was female, they would be false and unconvincing as they are still written by white straight males who will never understand or respect them. If they can be replaced by male characters without a single line change or characterization change, they are not legitimate or meaningful as female characters.

[QUOTE=JustGman;45125019]Lots of stuff in games isn't used for actual storytelling. There was plenty of other fluff in GTA4 like bars, arcades, and pool places, should all of that go too?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=e_k_M;45124997]many games don't need sewer levels but its almost in every game and they mostly look boring and annoying and has no reason to be in the game[/QUOTE] Awful analogies. None of these environments objectify women like objects of sexual desire.

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125049]That's little more than a bandage on the problem. Even if a majority of the cast was female, they would be false and unconvincing as they are still written by white straight males who will never understand or respect them. If they can be replaced by male characters without a single line change or characterization change, they are not legitimate or meaningful as female characters.[/QUOTE] if you maintain that white men can't write anything but white men convincingly, then you are also implying no race/gender can write any other race and gender or, the other option, you're being racist and sexist against white males

There's a really good practical reason why people who actually make things for a living don't share her views. Fucking [I]nothing[/I] would ever get made if artists were constantly worrying about whether or not they're being inadvertently sexist. Seriously these videos are so wholly disconnected from the artistic process, it's just another universe entirely.

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125049]That's little more than a bandage on the problem. Even if a majority of the cast was female, they would be false and unconvincing as they are still written by white straight males who will never understand or respect them. If they can be replaced by male characters without a single line change or characterization change, they are not legitimate or meaningful as female characters.[/QUOTE] how do you know they're written by straight white males? and if they happened to be a full dev team of straight white males, how do you know that they can't figure out how to write a realistic female character? from what i've heard john green writes realistic females and he's a straight white male, as i'm sure many others have

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;45124630][QUOTE=geogzm;45124611]While there are points to be made about women's representation in video games, I don't like how far she nitpicks. Yes, you can exclusively target women - you can also exclusively target [B]men[/B], lampposts, birds, vehicles and watermelons[/QUOTE] are you for real equating the diversity of female characters in games to the diversity of [B]inanimate objects[/B], and putting them on the same level? put two and two together. [/QUOTE] Amazing example how one sided and completely far gone you are. Either that or you just called men "inanimate objects". At this point I can no longer tell which one you meant.

WOMEN ARE BEING VIEWED AS SEX OBJECTS!! Proceeds to show videos of strip clubs in various video games I honestly can't take her seriously

Just finished it, it was somewhat okay at the beginning but that went really downhill really fast with the nitpicking. Like she shows a prostitute in deus ex saying something then having Jensen just stab her, that's not something you go around doing en masse in that game, and the " they drop bundles of money when you kill them " thing doesn't work either, considering [b]EVERY[/b] disposable pedestrian in those games drop money when killed. It really seems like she's just upset that there is even the option to kill a female npc in a game where you can kill nearly any npc. She really needs to stop nitpicking, she had some rational stuff at first but it went downhill so fast. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125073]There's a really good practical reason why people who actually make things for a living don't share her views. Fucking [I]nothing[/I] would ever get made if artists were constantly worrying about whether or not they're being inadvertently sexist. Seriously these videos are so wholly disconnected from the artistic process, it's just another universe entirely.[/QUOTE] This, definitely, one of the main things someone's mind would go to when it comes to thinking of high class or low class criminal activity would be drugs, murder, fast cars, prostitutes, etc. The fact that one of those things happens to be prostitutes doesn't make it sexist, it's putting it there for the atmosphere of a criminal lifestyle that a game like GTA V tries to sell/create. It's like getting upset at a war game for having characters that are lower or higher rank than the player.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125073]There's a really good practical reason why people who actually make things for a living don't share her views. Fucking [I]nothing[/I] would ever get made if artists were constantly worrying about whether or not they're being inadvertently sexist. Seriously these videos are so wholly disconnected from the artistic process, it's just another universe entirely.[/QUOTE] Does not invalidate the critique their works get.

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125049]That's little more than a bandage on the problem. Even if a majority of the cast was female, they would be false and unconvincing as they are still written by white straight males who will never understand or respect them. If they can be replaced by male characters without a single line change or characterization change, they are not legitimate or meaningful as female characters.[/QUOTE] Well it's a good thing men can't write women, otherwise you might be able to bring some positive change to the industry. Good thing the only people who need to do work aren't you, crazy luck huh?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125085]Does not invalidate the critique their works get.[/QUOTE] should all works seek to self censor themselves to save everyone from offense? Yes or no question

[QUOTE=Crash155;45125080]WOMEN ARE BEING VIEWED AS SEX OBJECTS!! Proceeds to show videos of strip clubs in various video games I honestly can't take her seriously[/QUOTE] These strip clubs serve no practical purpose for the game other than to objectify women and sexual commodities. They do not contribute to storytelling at all.

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125049]That's little more than a bandage on the problem. Even if a majority of the cast was female, they would be false and unconvincing as they are still written by white straight males who will never understand or respect them. If they can be replaced by male characters without a single line change or characterization change, they are not legitimate or meaningful as female characters.[/QUOTE] Are you saying women are incapable of having similar character traits to men?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125099]These strip clubs serve no practical purpose for the game other than to objectify women and sexual commodities. They do not contribute to storytelling at all.[/QUOTE] Not everything in a game exists to keep the "story" going. Are you suggesting that no game trying to show a form of the real world should have anything one might find in the real world if said thing is offensive?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125098]should all works seek to self censor themselves to save everyone from offense? Yes or no question[/QUOTE]No of course not, but that does not mean they are immune to opinion and critique of the public. Especially if the work is released as commercially sold item. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125122]Not everything in a game exists to keep the "story" going. Are you suggesting that no game trying to show a form of the real world should have anything one might find in the real world if said thing is offensive?[/QUOTE] If it is a story based game(aka not freeroam) and the environment does not contribute to game's development, why have it? Especially if it goes as far as to objectify a group of people?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125124]No of course not, but that does not mean they are immune to opinion and critique of the public. Especially if the work is released as commercially sold item.[/QUOTE] sure, but i'm not talking about that, but as a commercially sold item, should it seek to self censor and save everyone from any form of offense?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125099]These strip clubs serve no practical purpose for the game other than to objectify women and sexual commodities. They do not contribute to storytelling at all.[/QUOTE] They usually serve as a way of communicating to the player that the world they're in hosts a decadent society.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125124] [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] If it is a story based game(aka not freeroam) and the environment does not contribute to game's development, why have it? Especially if it goes as far as to objectify a group of people?[/QUOTE] So a bench that I don't sit on or don't interact with shouldn't be there? Billboards that have ads that objectify women as they do in the real world to sell perfumes or what have you shouldn't be there? See, this makes the world an unconvincing and empty version of itself. Why would I play a game that is trying to be the real world that actively attempted to censor everything to the point where no one can be offended by it? It seems like you don't want any expression if that expression can be considered offensive

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125085]Does not invalidate the critique their works get.[/QUOTE] It's inapplicable direction, of course it invalidates it. If I said Iron Man was shit because the writer was being insensitive to the feelings of the 2050 robot holocaust survivors, that would be inapplicable criticism. If I say Watch Dogs is shit because it didn't specifically tailor it's experience to not offend me, that is inapplicable to games development. There is no objective standard there for a team to follow, there's nothing to correct. It cannot be implemented, it's invalid criticism.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125150]So a bench that I don't sit on or don't interact with shouldn't be there? Billboards that have ads that objectify women as they do in the real world to sell perfumes or what have you shouldn't be there? See, this makes the world an unconvincing and empty version of itself. Why would I play a game that is trying to be the real world that actively attempted to censor everything to the point where no one can be offended by it? It seems like you don't want any expression if that expression can be considered offensive[/QUOTE] Not at all. A bench does not portray 50% of population as sex objects. If the billboards serve to send a message, sure add them. Otherwise why have that when there's tons of better choices that do not objectify people? Real life billboards portraying women like they do are shit too and it would be nice if they were removed.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125073]Fucking [I]nothing[/I] would ever get made if artists were constantly worrying about whether or not they're being inadvertently sexist. Seriously these videos are so wholly disconnected from the artistic process, it's just another universe entirely.[/QUOTE] the point isn't to make artists constantly worry, it's to make people aware of what is and isn't sexist. think of earlier movies and cartoons, where you often saw blatantly racist content. did people have to constantly worry about not including anything racist in their games after it started being looked down upon? no, because what is and what isn't racist became common sense, and that's what anita wishes would happen to sexism. edit: say what you will about her methods but saying that nothing would get made if people were more aware of what's offensive is silly

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125165]It's inapplicable direction, of course it invalidates it. If I said Iron Man was shit because the writer was being insensitive to the feelings of the 2050 robot holocaust survivors, that would be inapplicable criticism. If I say Watch Dogs is shit because it didn't specifically tailor it's experience to not offend me, that is inapplicable to games development. There is no objective standard there for a team to follow, there's nothing to correct. It cannot be implemented, it's invalid criticism.[/QUOTE] Don't put women as npcs who serve for male sex and power fantasy. That's clear critique that I hope gets followed more. It's very tasteless.