Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

snip, was meant to merge

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125124] If it is a story based game(aka not freeroam) and the environment does not contribute to game's development, why have it? Especially if it goes as far as to objectify a group of people?[/QUOTE] you know what's crazy is that that's practically the exact same argument puritans used in the 20's to argue against toilets being shown on screen in movies They're there because people shit in the real world, and you're trying to create a simulacrum of real life. You're literally asking for them to put censor bars over the parts of reality you personally find distasteful.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125182]Not at all. A bench does not portray 50% of population as sex objects. If the billboards serve to send a message, sure add them. Otherwise why have that when there's tons of better choices that do not objectify people? Real life billboards portraying women like they do are shit too and it would be nice if they were removed.[/QUOTE] see, you're missing the point if i'm creating a representation of the real world, if i censor it so that the "offensive" elements of it don't exist in it, I'm not creating a representation of the real world. What is and isn't offensive is impossible to figure out. It's subjective. If we go with the standard of nothing can be offensive, there goes just about everything in existence as everything is offensive to someone. Yes, strip clubs in the real world objectify women. Maybe they shouldn't exist, I think that's a different discussion, as to why they can be in games, why not? We have objectifications of men all over the place as well.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125200]Don't put women as npcs who serve for male sex and power fantasy. That's clear critique that I hope gets followed more. It's very tasteless.[/QUOTE] not having that in games doesn't change that it exists in the real world so why? no one's harmed. it's okay to kill 50 dudes in a gun fight, but shame on me if i look at a digital stripper

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125189]the point isn't to make artists constantly worry, it's to make people aware of what is and isn't sexist. think of earlier movies and cartoons, where you often saw blatantly racist content. did people have to constantly worry about not including anything racist in their games after it started being looked down upon? no, because what is and what isn't racist became common sense, and that's what anita wishes would happen to sexism. edit: say what you will about her methods but saying that nothing would get made if people were more aware of what's offensive is silly[/QUOTE] so, according to her, I shouldn't be able to kill women NPC's, but men are fair game that's actually a form of sexism, for real, it is. why did three posts not automerge what is this shit

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125200]Don't put women as npcs who serve for male sex and power fantasy. That's clear critique that I hope gets followed more. It's very tasteless.[/QUOTE] Well how about getting rid of strip clubs in reallife then? And advertisements featuring females in bikinis? And as women in bikinis on the beach in GTA V don't serve any purpose but as being an object to look at, let's get rid of those, too

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125200]Don't put women as npcs who serve for male sex and power fantasy. That's clear critique that I hope gets followed more. It's very tasteless.[/QUOTE] what's great about this white washing is just how disgusting it is in practice Welcome to the wild west, where no women are forced into prostitution, no siree! Nothing sexist happened in the 1800's, that's right! it's like B:I with it's candy coated racism. Don't say nigger, that'll offend the audience. It's much better to pretend that racism was just over the top highschool bullying with better production values, I'm sure that will lead to a better understanding of the severity of slavery!

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125060]Awful analogies. None of these environments objectify women like objects of sexual desire.[/QUOTE] Perfect analogies actually. All of those envoriments exist in this thing called real life. Bars, arcades, pool places and strip clubs all serve the same purpose in GTA: To make the city more diverse, realistic and make it feel more alive. If you're gonna complain about strip clubs in GTA then you should also be complaining about strip clubs IRL and those have people who choose to work in them and they're perfectly legal so really you don't have much to complain about.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125189]the point isn't to make artists constantly worry, it's to make people aware of what is and isn't sexist. think of earlier movies and cartoons, where you often saw blatantly racist content. did people have to constantly worry about not including anything racist in their games after it started being looked down upon? no, because what is and what isn't racist became common sense, and that's what anita wishes would happen to sexism. edit: say what you will about her methods but saying that nothing would get made if people were more aware of what's offensive is silly[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about the elevation of sexism as an important topic in the greater semiconcious mileau, I'm talking about the specific complaints being raised. Awareness is always good. Asking for artists to be held responsible for the unsubstantiated harm you claim they've caused to society is not good, for obvious reasons.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125228]not having that in games doesn't change that it exists in the real world so why? no one's harmed. it's okay to kill 50 dudes in a gun fight, but shame on me if i look at a digital stripper[/QUOTE] It exists in real life does not mean you should portray such things as positive in video games. Imagine a game where there is a random bar where you can abuse a minority that serves no purpose other than player's sick and twisted satisfaction of abusing a minority, portraying such things as positive. That would not pass in any AAA game today. And for a good reason too. That is what happens in quite a few women in videogames. Not all of them, there are games where such events are portrayed as negative and advance the plot and/or develop the universe. But you can't ignore the fact that in many games women are simply sex objects for men to oogle at and enjoy their power fantasy, encouraging such behavior. You can use the violence argument but you must remember that violence in games is not okay if it targets only a particular gender or ethnicity anyway. A lot of bad things exist in real life, but we should be better than to glorify those bad things in videogames. I am okay with including women as sex object AS LONG AS it is not glorifying such behavior as good or positive. There's a huge difference between portrayal of sex slavery vs player glancing under women's skirts in a public restroom.

It's not included as a positive so your whole argument falls apart

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125304]It's not included as a positive so your whole argument falls apart[/QUOTE]Depends which game we're talking about. In Duke for example it is as positive as it gets. Though that's a bad example since it's Duke.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125309]Depends which game we're talking about. In Duke for example it is as positive as it gets. Though that's a bad example since it's Duke.[/QUOTE] You're a terrible arguer. You presented your argument just to counter-argue yourself in the next sentence. If you have nothing that you can contribute to this then don't participate, please and thank you.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125222]What is and isn't offensive is impossible to figure out. It's subjective. If we go with the standard of nothing can be offensive, there goes just about everything in existence as everything is offensive to someone.[/QUOTE] I think this is a gross oversimplification and basically the "political correctness gone mad" argument reworded.

[QUOTE=Manibogi;45125333]You're a terrible arguer. You presented your argument just to counter-argue yourself in the next sentence. If you have nothing that you can contribute to this then don't participate, please and thank you.[/QUOTE] Alright I'll listen to you good man. Oh god Max is out of ban.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125291]It exists in real life does not mean you should portray such things as positive in video games. Imagine a game where there is a random bar where you can abuse a minority that serves no purpose other than player's sick and twisted satisfaction of abusing a minority, portraying such things as positive. That would not pass in any AAA game today. And for a good reason too. That is what happens in quite a few women in videogames. Not all of them, there are games where such events are portrayed as negative and advance the plot and/or develop the universe. But you can't ignore the fact that in many games women are simply sex objects for men to oogle at and enjoy their power fantasy, encouraging such behavior. You can use the violence argument but you must remember that violence in games is not okay if it targets only a particular gender or ethnicity anyway. A lot of bad things exist in real life, but we should be better than to glorify those bad things in videogames. I am okay with including women as sex object AS LONG AS it is not glorifying such behavior as good or positive. There's a huge difference between portrayal of sex slavery vs player glancing under women's skirts in a public restroom.[/QUOTE] Watch Dogs was a good example of your last point. The game displayed the underground sex trade and a warehouse full of illegally enslaved females, however the game literally just represented what happens in real life without advocating it. [sp]For the record, you get the slave traders arrested and rescue the slaves.[/sp]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125182]Not at all. A bench does not portray 50% of population as sex objects. If the billboards serve to send a message, sure add them. Otherwise why have that when there's tons of better choices that do not objectify people? Real life billboards portraying women like they do are shit too and it would be nice if they were removed.[/QUOTE] The point of those things being included is to ground them. There are strip clubs in real life so many open world games include them, often as a consequence of portraying the criminal underworld of society. Ads which show half naked women to sell unrelated products exist in real life and so exist in games which seek to emulate or replicate real life, including these things doesn't make the game sexist, nor do the games "portray 50% of the population as sex objects". If a game only portrayed women as sexy or submissive it may very well be sexist, but a game including a strip club can portray a sexist event without itself being sexist. Take Saints Row as an example, there are strip clubs in SR4 which are the centre of multiple missions, but the main female cast are all well written characters with their own motivations and story arcs, Kenzie and Shaundi are two of the most important characters in the series.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125291]It exists in real life does not mean you should portray such things as positive in video games. Imagine a game where there is a random bar where you can abuse a minority that serves no purpose other than player's sick and twisted satisfaction of abusing a minority, portraying such things as positive. That would not pass in any AAA game today. And for a good reason too. That is what happens in quite a few women in videogames. Not all of them, there are games where such events are portrayed as negative and advance the plot and/or develop the universe. But you can't ignore the fact that in many games women are simply sex objects for men to oogle at and enjoy their power fantasy, encouraging such behavior. You can use the violence argument but you must remember that violence in games is not okay if it targets only a particular gender or ethnicity anyway. A lot of bad things exist in real life, but we should be better than to glorify those bad things in videogames. I am okay with including women as sex object AS LONG AS it is not glorifying such behavior as good or positive. There's a huge difference between portrayal of sex slavery vs player glancing under women's skirts in a public restroom.[/QUOTE] So how is GTA V glorifying strip clubs?

[QUOTE=geogzm;45125346]Watch Dogs was a good example of your last point. The game displayed the underground sex trade and a warehouse full of illegally enslaved females, however the game literally just represented what happens in real life without advocating it. [sp]For the record, you get the slave traders arrested and rescue the slaves.[/sp][/QUOTE] I feel that part was really well done. It gives you an insight inside human trafficking auction full of rich pricks and does not glorify this sort of stuff at all. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Impact1986;45125359]So how is GTA V glorifying strip clubs?[/QUOTE] No idea. Haven't played it for long enough to visit one.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125291]It exists in real life does not mean you should portray such things as positive in video games. Imagine a game where there is a random bar where you can abuse a minority that serves no purpose other than player's sick and twisted satisfaction of abusing a minority, portraying such things as positive. That would not pass in any AAA game today. And for a good reason too. That is what happens in quite a few women in videogames. Not all of them, there are games where such events are portrayed as negative and advance the plot and/or develop the universe. But you can't ignore the fact that in many games women are simply sex objects for men to oogle at and enjoy their power fantasy, encouraging such behavior. You can use the violence argument but you must remember that violence in games is not okay if it targets only a particular gender or ethnicity anyway. A lot of bad things exist in real life, but we should be better than to glorify those bad things in videogames. I am okay with including women as sex object AS LONG AS it is not glorifying such behavior as good or positive. There's a huge difference between portrayal of sex slavery vs player glancing under women's skirts in a public restroom.[/QUOTE] What a work of art presents as negative or positive is a wholly subjective matter and up for every individual to interpret for themselves. Unless artists gain the ability to control the minds of every human on the planet, they will be unable to design based around what will be interpreted positively. This is actually a perfect example. Considering that Aiden is a shut in misanthrope, I'm guessing the general vibe the game is trying to get across is that the city is full of scum. And I would further assume the strip clubs are meant to further reinforce that sense of scuzzy filth. But because of your perspective, you assume the strip clubs are portraying sexual objectification positively. But I guess those designers should have just known there was a person named thisisjuly who would see it that way, huh? [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125341]I think this is a gross oversimplification and basically the "political correctness gone mad" argument reworded.[/QUOTE] when you're asking for games to stop offending you based on your own undefined subjective criteria because of unsubstantiated supposed harm, that's pretty much what you're asking for.

The only way I can think that GTA V may glorify strip clubs is through that mini-game, but you're playing as one of three killers who aren't anywhere close to being in the moral right so it shouldn't be seen as a positive thing to objectify women

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125341]I think this is a gross oversimplification and basically the "political correctness gone mad" argument reworded.[/QUOTE] So then give me an objective example of things that are forever, always will be always have been "offensive" no such thing exists so the only thing left to say is that offensiveness is subjective and that if you believe all offensive material shouldn't be offensive, then you have to start removing it according to all standards, not just yours. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;45125363]I feel that part was really well done. It gives you an insight inside human trafficking auction full of rich pricks and does not glorify this sort of stuff at all. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] No idea. Haven't played it for long enough to visit one.[/QUOTE] And a strip club in a game like Duke(which is a stereotypical exaggeration of just about everything in the real world based on a stylistic desire to show the "perfect" stereotypical man in a world over run by aliens) it isn't even positive in that. In a game like GTAV where you play as one of three mass murderer criminal jack of all trades types, when you visit a strip club it isn't to glorify the objectification of women. It's shown as an exaggeration of criminal elements again. When you start using YOUR lens to determine what we can all see, that is fucking censorship.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125062]if you maintain that white men can't write anything but white men convincingly, then you are also implying no race/gender can write any other race and gender or, the other option, you're being racist and sexist against white males[/QUOTE] I'll admit that its certainly possible for minorities to write whites well. Straight white men cannot and will [I]never[/I] write minority characters convincingly as being oppressors, their writing cannot portray minorities with respect due to white society's injuries and expectations upon them and frankly it would be pretty gross for them to do so after everything they have done. [QUOTE=G-Strogg;45125106]Are you saying women are incapable of having similar character traits to men?[/QUOTE] Not necessarily. But such things are usually due to them being written and directed by men or indoctrination by the patriarchy. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125285] Awareness is always good. Asking for artists to be held responsible for the unsubstantiated harm you claim they've caused to society is not good, for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] Why should they not? Either they deliberately express their desire to oppress, demean and humiliate through the media they create, or were so disgustingly thoughtless as to do so unconsciously. You really want change? You need to start holding them responsible for what they do.

Don't remove it. Just be prepared for people expressing their opinion. That's about it. No one is legally forcing developers from removing or censoring offensive stuff. That would be ridiculous due to free speech and what not. But consumers also have the power of free speech and are allowed to express their dissatisfaction with content they find tasteless.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125399]So then give me an objective example of things that are forever, always will be always have been "offensive" no such thing exists so the only thing left to say is that offensiveness is subjective and that if you believe all offensive material shouldn't be offensive, then you have to start removing it according to all standards, not just yours.[/QUOTE] What slays me is that the only people who attempt to design around what is and isn't offensive are chumps like David Gaider, who just end up being egotistical blowhards who can't see how patently misrepresentative and stereotypical their own stuff actually is. The people who think everyone should be as unoffensive and progressive as them are almost always the absolute worst and most backwards of all. So I guess if you want an industry made up entirely of those people, knock yourself out.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125341]I think this is a gross oversimplification and basically the "political correctness gone mad" argument reworded.[/QUOTE] Muslims think that drinking alcohol is offensive. Should we now ban alcohol everywhere?

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125428]I'll admit that its certainly possible for minorities to write whites well. Straight white men cannot and will [I]never[/I] write minority characters convincingly as being oppressors, [B]their writing cannot portray minorities with respect due to white society's injuries and expectations upon them and frankly it would be pretty gross for them to do so after everything they have done. [/B][/QUOTE] by the book definition of racism. hello, you're a racist.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;45125354]The point of those things being included is to ground them. There are strip clubs in real life so many open world games include them, often as a consequence of portraying the criminal underworld of society. Ads which show half naked women to sell unrelated products exist in real life and so exist in games which seek to emulate or replicate real life, including these things doesn't make the game sexist, nor do the games "portray 50% of the population as sex objects".[/QUOTE] If, over time, there were more interesting female protagonists in games, would you really miss female characters that only served as brainless window dressing? Games do not exist in a vacuum and can't really be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use. Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be. But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125430]Don't remove it. Just be prepared for people expressing their opinion. That's about it. No one is legally forcing developers from removing or censoring offensive stuff. That would be ridiculous due to free speech and what not. But consumers also have the power of free speech and are allowed to express their dissatisfaction with content they find tasteless.[/QUOTE] i'm happy to have people complain and voice their opinions, all is well and good with that it just seems like so much of these conversations come down to "i find this offensive, therefore, it shouldn't be in any game because said thing is evil, regardless of context"

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125428]I'll admit that its certainly possible for minorities to write whites well. Straight white men cannot and will [I]never[/I] write minority characters convincingly as being oppressors, their writing cannot portray minorities with respect due to white society's injuries and expectations upon them and frankly it would be pretty gross for them to do so after everything they have done. Not necessarily. But such things are usually due to them being written and directed by men or indoctrination by the patriarchy. Why should they not? Either they deliberately express their desire to oppress, demean and humiliate through the media they create, or were so disgustingly thoughtless as to do so unconsciously. You really want change? You need to start holding them responsible for what they do.[/QUOTE] so white people can't accurately write anybody that isn't white because most of our ancestors were oppressors? yes, there are still some white people with that kinda mentality around today, but they're not the majority of white people, white people outside of that group still have the potential to write from another race by the logic you use, a black author couldn't write a white character because they were the oppressed race and still face oppression from SOME white people today - you can't pigeonhole a whole race as being racist or seeing another race differently, people have a variety of different thoughts and attitudes