Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125428]I'll admit that its certainly possible for minorities to write whites well. Straight white men cannot and will [I]never[/I] write minority characters convincingly as being oppressors, their writing cannot portray minorities with respect due to white society's injuries and expectations upon them and frankly it would be pretty gross for them to do so after everything they have done. Not necessarily. But such things are usually due to them being written and directed by men or indoctrination by the patriarchy. Why should they not? Either they deliberately express their desire to oppress, demean and humiliate through the media they create, or were so disgustingly thoughtless as to do so unconsciously. You really want change? You need to start holding them responsible for what they do.[/QUOTE] How about you try telling a story? We'll see just how heartless and foul your twisted little brain is when we put your work under a microscope. It's easy to talk from the peanut gallery, but let's see you walk the walk.

snip automerge

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125441]If, over time, there were more interesting female protagonists in games, would you really miss female characters that only served as brainless window dressing? Games do not exist in a vacuum and can't really be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use. Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be. But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.[/QUOTE] what is context for 500$

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125428]I'll admit that its certainly possible for minorities to write whites well. Straight white men cannot and will [I]never[/I] write minority characters convincingly as being oppressors, their writing cannot portray minorities with respect due to white society's injuries and expectations upon them and frankly it would be pretty gross for them to do so after everything they have done. [/QUOTE] I think you're being extremely reducting of the whole issue. It's really dumb to say that "white men can never understand minorities or write them with respect" because your skin color or your gender does not exclude you from being able to understand a minority's struggle. That's why men can be feminists and white people can take a stand against racism. (in a way it's sort of similar to the argument of "men do this; women do this"; there are more differences within categories of people than between categories of people) [QUOTE=LurkyLurker;45125428]Not necessarily. But such things are usually due to them being written and directed by men or indoctrination by the patriarchy.[/QUOTE] Patriarchy isn't "indoctrination", it's a system of existing pre-conceptions and prejudices that exist there "by default"...

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45125435]Muslims think that drinking alcohol is offensive. Should we now ban alcohol everywhere?[/QUOTE] a relatively small (considering the market most triple a devs work with) group of people isn't the same as ~50% of the earth's population

Anyone who says your skin color and gender dictate your writing skills needs a smack. Plenty of great authors write outstanding works about people of gender and skin not same as the author.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125493]what is context for 500$[/QUOTE] What do you mean?

I don't understand the hitman one, you can distract guards with any body. The game isn't programmed to get the guards turned on by a dead bikini girl. I don't understand her arguments in the 2nd half of the video either, she talks about killing women in video games but the video games she talks about let's you kill anyone. Does she expect Female NPC's to be invincible in open world games or something? This is dumb.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125441]If, over time, there were more interesting female protagonists in games, would you really miss female characters that only served as brainless window dressing? Games do not exist in a vacuum and can't really be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use. Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be. But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.[/QUOTE] You are complaining that the 3 main characters, which have no problem with killing hundreds of people without batting an eye, stealing cars without a second thought, and being general assholes to anyone, and one of them actually brutally torturing someone say a few insults against trans people? And Trevor doesn't even do this. Yeah, this guy. [t]http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/CmozX7L0tQg/maxresdefault.jpg[/t] Every five minutes? That is a gross overexaggeration.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125441]If, over time, there were more interesting female protagonists in games, would you really miss female characters that only served as brainless window dressing? Games do not exist in a vacuum and can't really be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use. Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be. But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.[/QUOTE] I never said they existed in a vacuum. In fact I said the opposite, they exist as a reflection of life as it is, not of life as you would want it to be. Grand Theft Auto is not a satire of criminal behaviour, it is a satire of American excess as viewed from the lens of a criminal. If an element of a story makes sense within its internal logic or in reflection of the real world is absolutely justifies its use. You don't have to like it, but they don't have to cater to your idealised world view. Open world crime games usually feature unsavoury characters who will do things and go to places you may not like. If you're playing a game about people who kill, steal, and kidnap people for a chance of moving up one rung of the ladder and you expect progressive characters who are inclusive to alternative lifestyles you're playing the wrong game mate.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125441]If, over time, there were more interesting female protagonists in games, would you really miss female characters that only served as brainless window dressing? Games do not exist in a vacuum and can't really be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use. Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be. But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.[/QUOTE] And that's your interpretation. And while you're wholly justified in having it, it by no means has any bearing on the work itself. If something is funny to me and sad to you, my reaction is not invalidated by yours. There is no correct emotion to feel in response to anything, and by the same card there is no correct interpretation of anything. All that emotional weight is your own, and it is relevant to no one besides you.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125441] Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use. Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be.[B] But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes [/B]without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.[/QUOTE] Huh, you unlocked the Transphobic voice pack already? I never got that far.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125527]a relatively small (considering the market most triple a devs work with) group of people isn't the same as ~50% of the earth's population[/QUOTE] So it is okay to be offensive to transpeople? And homosexuals? Because they are a relatively small group of people.

"The player can't help but treat these female bodies as things, to be acted upon, players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure by desecrating the body of a woman" she narrates over footage of a PC clumsily dragging shitty ragdolls around in hitman absolution. All of these actions can be justified by parallels to the real world or gameplay mechanics (it's not just the hookers you can kill in GTA, but nobody will make a fuss about you mowing down White Males)

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125541]What do you mean?[/QUOTE] well the events of GTAV for example(it's really one of the better examples for these things, shame on the genre and devs for that though) all take place inside the world of GTA. A highly satirical world. I would argue that this is very obvious, for a variety of reasons. GTAV at the very least lets you use the phone for internet, and you can see in just about every headline, every article and website that you can access the nature of this satire that is very prevalent. This adds a good deal of context. As do the missions and the backstory that goes along with this. Yes, what they can say in some areas of the game is definitely something you could consider to be offensive, and even within the context of the game world it is, but in my opinion, the use of these dialouges in the context of the game gives it a level of apparent social commentary. These are terrible men doing terrible things, often saying terrible things, who live in a more terribly exagerated version of our world. The context of the world and story and even our world is important.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125441]If, over time, there were more interesting female protagonists in games, would you really miss female characters that only served as brainless window dressing? Games do not exist in a vacuum and can't really be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. Just because a game element might "make sense" within the internal logic of a fictional narrative, or in relation to its emulation of the real world, doesn't in and out of itself justify its use.[/quote] i completely agree with this [quote]Don't get me wrong; I'd be perfectly happy if GTA V was as satirical as gamers make it out to be. But when I hear just three macho men dissing out transphobic and misogynistic insults every five minutes without the game really even remotely hinting that what they're doing is the inverse of the behaviour you should be aspire to be... it's not satire. It's just perpetuating the statu quo.[/QUOTE] not with this though just because a game doesn't explicitly state that it's satire, it doesn't mean that it's being serious. gta has both subtle and obvious jokes made at the expense of other people. a lot of characters are completely serious and have a lot of impact on the plot, but that doesn't mean they're not meant to be comically stereotypical. the whole point of gta is to have a serious narrative in a ridiculous universe that the characters are completely oblivious to. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Impact1986;45125588]So it is okay to be offensive to transpeople? And homosexuals? Because they are a relatively small group of people.[/QUOTE] but the example you brought up was not even offensive. muslims aren't offended by non-muslim people drinking alcohol, that's ridiculous

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125602]well the events of GTAV for example(it's really one of the better examples for these things, shame on the genre and devs for that though) all take place inside the world of GTA. A highly satirical world. I would argue that this is very obvious, for a variety of reasons. GTAV at the very least lets you use the phone for internet, and you can see in just about every headline, every article and website that you can access the nature of this satire that is very prevalent. This adds a good deal of context. As do the missions and the backstory that goes along with this. Yes, what they can say in some areas of the game is definitely something you could consider to be offensive, and even within the context of the game world it is, but in my opinion, the use of these dialouges in the context of the game gives it a level of apparent social commentary. These are terrible men doing terrible things, often saying terrible things, who live in a more terribly exagerated version of our world. The context of the world and story and even our world is important.[/QUOTE] I love the satire of the GTA universe but the way it's written sometimes really feels like it's to be taken at face value. Sometimes it's really easy to tell when they're trying to make a point about a social issue by mocking it (like the 9/11 conspiracy guys in the in-game internet), other times it's just regurgitating racist/sexist stereotypes for the sake of it. I'm not asking for the game to have a big "don't do this at home" blinking banner at all times at the bottom of the game screen, just that the writing and execution could sometimes drive the point home better.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125604]i completely agree with this not with this though just because a game doesn't explicitly state that it's satire, it doesn't mean that it's being serious. gta has both subtle and obvious jokes made at the expense of other people. a lot of characters are completely serious and have a lot of impact on the plot, but that doesn't mean they're not meant to be comically stereotypical. the whole point of gta is to have a serious narrative in a ridiculous universe that the characters are completely oblivious to. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] but the example you brought up was not even offensive. muslims aren't offended by non-muslim people drinking alcohol, that's ridiculous[/QUOTE] Oh really? [video=youtube;-2y5n-hAnUE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2y5n-hAnUE[/video]

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125649]I love the satire of the GTA universe but the way it's written sometimes really feels like it's to be taken at face value. Sometimes it's impossible to tell whether they're trying to make a point about a social issue by mocking it (like the 9/11 conspiracy guys in the in-game internet), [B]compared to when it's just regurgitating racist/sexist stereotypes for the sake of it. [/B] I'm not asking for the game to have a big "don't do this at home" blinking banner at all times at the bottom of the game screen, just that the writing and execution could sometimes drive the point home better.[/QUOTE] That's like saying Borat is a racist movie because it exaggerates and make fun of racial stereotypes. Most people who watch the movie would know it's not attacking people, the people who reinforce racism because of the movie were racist assholes in the first place.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45125654]Oh really? [video=youtube;-2y5n-hAnUE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2y5n-hAnUE[/video][/QUOTE] a bunch of crazies =/= an entire faith

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45125654]Oh really? [video=youtube;-2y5n-hAnUE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2y5n-hAnUE[/video][/QUOTE] The thread isn't about muslims but I have to say this: you're doing that old thing where you extrapolate the view of the minority onto the rest of the group. Muslim =/= Sharia law. (the same way feminists =/= that image list of extremist quotes you found on some website)

Know what game I thought handled the whole "women as decoration" thing well? Fallout New Vegas. There were plenty of prostitutes and strippers operating completely out in the open, as you'd expect in that setting. And that's not upsetting at all, because there were male prostitutes and strippers as well. The whole thing made sense in context - they were people selling themselves to get by in a post apocalyptic setting and, like you'd expect, some were men and some were women. Most open world games, like GTA, seem to handle it poorly. I understand the characters not entering a male strip club or patronizing male prostitutes, they're straight. (Well, Trevor could go either way...) But the prostitutes that existed in the world were special because they carried extra money, so they were something designed for the player to interact with. I don't remember any male ones. At some point in the game's development someone made the decision to only spawn female prostitutes in the world, and whether they intended for this to send a message or not (they probably didn't), it does.

A large number of points about openworld games are just wrong, as they apply to ALL of the random passers by in rpg, such as the money being dropped on the ground. Also, implying that players are supposed to get a perverse pleasure from killing prostitutes is entirely wrong, they're supposed to get a perverse pleasure from killing anything, that's what a lot of those openworld crime games are about, killing stuff for the shit of it. I agree that there are too many prostitutes and overly sexual female characters are way too frequent in videogames, but they're not active targets for the players to kill, no moreso than other NPC's are.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125690]The thread isn't about muslims but I have to say this: you're doing that old thing where you extrapolate the view of the minority onto the rest of the group. Muslim =/= Sharia law. (the same way feminists =/= that image list of extremist quotes you found on some website)[/QUOTE] They're a minority in the place where that video was taken, but not in other countries. They're certainly not too few to just handwaive away as if they don't exist and don't matter. By the way, how small does a population have to be for us to be able to discount their feelings?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125732]They're a minority in the place where that video was taken, but not in other countries. They're certainly not too few to just handwaive away as if they don't exist and don't matter. By the way, how small does a population have to be for us to be able to discount their feelings?[/QUOTE] It's not about discounting their feelings, it's about not conflating extremists with the groups they claim to represent...

To expand on my last post, GTA Online makes this slightly more troublesome. In single player games it's perfectly fine to have straight characters and use that as the reasoning for why male strippers or prostitutes never come up during gameplay. But in GTA:O you play as yourself or a character you come up with. While I can't imagine actually enjoying expressions of sexuality in a virtual setting, the "infrastructure" for doing so exists in GTA - if you're straight. Maybe this is some bit of meta-parody/stereotyping on the part of Rockstar about how the average straight American male is so sex-obsessed that there needs to be tits quickly accessible at all times, I don't really know. It would definitely work as that, and I'd almost believe Rockstar if they claimed this because they're the kind of writers that would do it. Their writing is great, on the level of old South Park or Colbert Report.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125690]The thread isn't about muslims but I have to say this: you're doing that old thing where you extrapolate the view of the minority onto the rest of the group. Muslim =/= Sharia law. (the same way feminists =/= that image list of extremist quotes you found on some website)[/QUOTE] And they are still offended. Would you say that just because they are a few bad apples, you should just overlook them? Until which percentage of the population is it okay to you to offend them?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125732]They're a minority in the place where that video was taken, but not in other countries. They're certainly not too few to just handwaive away as if they don't exist and don't matter. By the way, how small does a population have to be for us to be able to discount their feelings?[/QUOTE] like i already said, it's not like non-muslims drinking alcohol is offensive to most muslims. and besides, it's not like most games are marketed towards muslim countries

Surprised by how reasonable this video seems compared to her others. How much did this one cost? $30,000? I'm trying to keep track.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125787]like i already said, it's not like non-muslims drinking alcohol is offensive to most muslims. and besides, it's not like most games are marketed towards muslim countries[/QUOTE] but it's still okay to offend them because it's smaller, or lesser offenses? But you must realize that's just in your perspective that it's less offensive?