Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45125812]but it's still okay to offend them because it's smaller, or lesser offenses? But you must realize that's just in your perspective that it's less offensive?[/QUOTE] are you saying showing people drinking alcohol IS offensive to them?

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125758]It's not about discounting their feelings, it's about not conflating extremists with the groups they claim to represent...[/QUOTE] But they are what they say they are? Like, agreed, all muslims are not them. But they are muslims and there's nothing wrong with saying that. And the ultimate point is that if you're going to start designing around what's offensive, what they find offensive is no less logical or important than what you do. Still, yeah, they do not represent what all muslims believe in any way.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125200]Don't put women as npcs who serve for male sex and power fantasy. That's clear critique that I hope gets followed more. It's very tasteless.[/QUOTE] Wait so prostitutes arent allowed anymore or something? And who gets to decide whats a power fantasty? I know ive never fantasized power with sex in any video game. Why cant women be sex objects in games? Can men be sex objects? Shouldnt art be untouched and people should be allowed to put whatever they want in? Why is it tasteless and why should people follow this critique? What if having such an NPC improved the game while removing it would be detrimental? Why?

[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;45124329]I don't like her point of the violence against women in open world games, I mean she only focuses on the killing of woman and not the fact you can kill anyone in an open world game.[/QUOTE] But the POINT was that you only get a boner when killing female NPC's, and not when killing male NPC's.

[QUOTE=PaperBurrito;45125792]Surprised by how reasonable this video seems compared to her others. How much did this one cost? $30,000? I'm trying to keep track.[/QUOTE] If you don't count the cost of equipment and supplies they'll work out to about $14k each once all 11 are out [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] Why are people talking about Muslims let's talk about the video

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125787]like i already said, it's not like non-muslims drinking alcohol is offensive to most muslims. and besides, it's not like most games are marketed towards muslim countries[/QUOTE] If we're bringing marketing into this, then nothing offensive matters. You could always say it just wasn't marketed towards the group that was offended. [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Bat-shit;45125855]But the POINT was that you only get a boner when killing female NPC's, and not when you kill male NPC's.[/QUOTE] afaik most people don't get boners when they strangle women in hitman

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45125828]Wait so prostitutes arent allowed anymore or something? And who gets to decide whats a power fantasty? I know ive never fantasized power with sex in any video game. Why cant women be sex objects in games? Can men be sex objects? Shouldnt art be untouched and people should be allowed to put whatever they want in? Why is it tasteless and why should people follow this critique? What if having such an NPC improved the game while removing it would be detrimental? Why?[/QUOTE] because it's sexist and unfair to include nothing but objectified females? yes, men can also be objectified, but in most of the examples in the video, they're not. yes, people should be allowed to put what they want in their games, but they should also face the consequences if they're including something that creates enough backlash from the community

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45125828]Wait so prostitutes arent allowed anymore or something? And who gets to decide whats a power fantasty? I know ive never fantasized power with sex in any video game. Why cant women be sex objects in games? Can men be sex objects? Shouldnt art be untouched and people should be allowed to put whatever they want in? Why is it tasteless and why should people follow this critique? What if having such an NPC improved the game while removing it would be detrimental? Why?[/QUOTE] Feminists don't want [I]every[/I] female character in video games to be strong, complex, and independent, and never to be sexualized. What they actually want is a variety of female characters in games of all personalities and body types, [B]so that women aren't portrayed[I] almost exclusively[/I] as subordinate sex objects[/B]. They don't want to remove skimpy, overtly sexual armor from women in games; they want male and female characters to have the same degree of variance with regards to how sexually (or asexually) they are depicted. In essence, they want male and female characters to have the same potential level of depth, variety, and sexuality in gaming; and currently, they don't.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45125828]Wait so prostitutes arent allowed anymore or something? And who gets to decide whats a power fantasty? I know ive never fantasized power with sex in any video game. Why cant women be sex objects in games? Can men be sex objects? Shouldnt art be untouched and people should be allowed to put whatever they want in? Why is it tasteless and why should people follow this critique? What if having such an NPC improved the game while removing it would be detrimental? Why?[/QUOTE] Why is racism, misogyny and discrimination bad? Why? If you're saying that having half-naked NPCs jiggling their tits improves the game, that's a sex/power fantasy. In most cases objectifying a gender does not improve the quality of your work at all. Are you guys seriously saying that it is okay to portray an entire gender as sex objects/decoration in videogames? No wonder people don't take videogames seriously. It is still such an immature medium.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45125879]You could always say it just wasn't marketed towards the group that was offended.[/QUOTE] and that's true. almost all triple a titles aren't exactly marketed towards the groups that end up getting offended. a lot of the backlash happens because they're the only alternatives out there, though. if we had crime-centered, free roaming games that were marketed towards women, i can guarantee that there would be a lot less people getting offended by the ones that are marketed towards men, but there just aren't enough of those games out there

Why does the majority of erotica novel feature smart women who know what they want and men who want nothing but sex? Why is man erotica such a minority in this world?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45125960]but they are. almost all triple a titles aren't exactly marketed towards the groups that end up getting offended. a lot of the backlash happens because they're the only alternatives out there, though. if we had crime-centered, free roaming games that were marketed towards women, i can guarantee that there would be a lot less people getting offended by the ones that are marketed towards men, but there just aren't enough of those games out there[/QUOTE] I'm sure. But even though less people would be offended, people would still be offended none the less. We're coming at this from different angles here. I'm saying that if you want to change things based on people being offended or based on how it's interpreted, you have to take everyone's opinion and everyone's interpretation into account. You can't say "this is bad because it's offensive to women, change it. But don't worry about whether or not the change will offend the people of Qatar, because their feelings don't matter."

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125922]Feminists don't want [I]every[/I] female character in video games to be strong, complex, and independent, and never to be sexualized. What they actually want is a variety of female characters in games of all personalities and body types, [B]so that women aren't portrayed[I] almost exclusively[/I] as subordinate sex objects[/B]. They don't want to remove skimpy, overtly sexual armor from women in games; they want male and female characters to have the same degree of variance with regards to how sexually (or asexually) they are depicted. In essence, they want male and female characters to have the same potential level of depth, variety, and sexuality in gaming; and currently, they don't.[/QUOTE] You do realize not every character is a main character and what you are asking for is unrealistic, and how do you measure depth/variety/sexuality in a game? Do you have some checklist you mark off when trying a game, or is there some actual measurement for this? And women are not almost exclusively portrayed as sex objects, what the fuck are you talking about? I cant even come up with a handful of games like that. Sex objects better not mean good looking, or hot, or sexy, or whatever, because like almost all the fucking males in most games fit that criteria, by sex objects you better mean literal npcs you just have sex with and thats it, because the only games I see doing that are like GTA and SR, a game that revolves around mass murdering pretty much, but the prostitutes are apparently the most shameful? Plus women as sex objects is A REAL THING IN REAL LIFE, this is what blows my mind, instead of trying to do something about the actual real life prostitution and shit, you instead complain about the imaginary problem.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45126013]I'm sure. But even though less people would be offended, people would still be offended none the less. We're coming at this from different angles here. I'm saying that if you want to change things based on people being offended or based on how it's interpreted, you have to take everyone's opinion and everyone's interpretation into account. You can't say "this is bad because it's offensive to women, change it. But don't worry about whether or not the change will offend the people of Qatar, because their feelings don't matter."[/QUOTE] In a way you can actually. Developers are not required or forced by law to change anything. You can't order them to change anything, only to suggest change. If enough people suggest a change, it might be in developer's best interest to do so. But they are not required.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125922]Feminists don't want [I]every[/I] female character in video games to be strong, complex, and independent, and never to be sexualized. What they actually want is a variety of female characters in games of all personalities and body types, [B]so that women aren't portrayed[I] almost exclusively[/I] as subordinate sex objects[/B]. They don't want to remove skimpy, overtly sexual armor from women in games; they want male and female characters to have the same degree of variance with regards to how sexually (or asexually) they are depicted. In essence, they want male and female characters to have the same potential level of depth, variety, and sexuality in gaming; and currently, they don't.[/QUOTE] I feel like all of this is being marketed really poorly. If it was framed as artists being limited by cultural bullshit instead of artists poisoning society, I think you'd find people being a lot more receptive. I know that once I figured that bit out, I sure was.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126023]Plus women as sex objects is A REAL THING IN REAL LIFE[/QUOTE] And it's a thing that, similarly, happens disproportionately and that people would like to see less off! [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126023] this is what blows my mind, instead of trying to do something about the actual real life prostitution and shit, you instead complain about the imaginary problem.[/QUOTE] Games don't exist on a vacuum; they reflect society. And media can affect how society thinks. Video games aren't imaginary: they're media.

I think this video is great. While it may be 'nitpicky' or 'biased' or something, it doesn't get anything dead wrong. Remember when games journalists complained that you get bonus points for killing strippers in Duke Nukem 3D? I think this is a step forward.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45126029]In a way you can actually. Developers are not required or forced by law to change anything. You can't order them to change anything, only to suggest change. If enough people suggest a change, it might be in developer's best interest to do so. But they are not required.[/QUOTE] Well, yeah, they can. But they'd be wrong. I don't think I could respect a developer who tries in vain to appeal to the impractical will of a disparate mob, for whatever that's worth.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45126080]Well, yeah, they can. But they'd be wrong. I don't think I could respect a developer who tries in vain to appeal to the impractical will of a disparate mob, for whatever that's worth.[/QUOTE]You're calling a movement for better treatment of a particular group a disparate mob? Do you also oppose LGBT movement and anti-racism ones?

So, if all the females mentioned in this video were all replaced with men with the same purpose, would she still be buttmad?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125943]Why is racism, misogyny and discrimination bad? Why? If you're saying that having half-naked NPCs jiggling their tits improves the game, that's a sex/power fantasy. In most cases objectifying a gender does not improve the quality of your work at all. Are you guys seriously saying that it is okay to portray an entire gender as sex objects/decoration in videogames? No wonder people don't take videogames seriously. It is still such an immature medium.[/QUOTE] Wait so a prostitute in a game now objectifies an entire gender? Are you fucking kidding me here? And what does asking if "racism, misogyny and discrimination" even matter to what I was asking? Of course its bad? But that stuff is apparent in all art and improves it and should always be allowed in any form of art. Django Unchained, really racist, really good. Boondocks, really racist, really good. Southpark, really just everything, really good. You could make a never ending list almost, and you wanna know why its beneficial? Because it allows for more unique stories to be told, you wouldn't get a Schindler list or wouldnt have had a show like Roots in your world apparently, but luckily thats not the case so we do. By using racism, misogyny and discrimination in something allows people to learn from whoever is directing the story, you are able to see a recreating of whatever is at hand. None of us were alive in slave times yet we know so much about it, there are so many movies/shows/books all about, a lot fiction as well written by people who were also not alive in slave times. Why would I want some bland, sterile, equal loving game over one thats taking risks?

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45126068]And it's a thing that, similarly, happens disproportionately and that people would like to see less off! Games don't exist on a vacuum; they reflect society. And media can affect how society thinks. Video games aren't imaginary: they're media.[/QUOTE] Everything affects how society thinks. The phase of the moon also affects how society thinks. You affect how society thinks. Think of it this way. If I told you that your style of argument was overly hostile and harmful to the feminist movement, would I be right in telling you to shut up for the good of society? Am I in a place to make that judgement? [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;45126096]You're calling a movement for better treatment of a particular group a disparate mob? Do you also oppose LGBT movement and anti-racism ones?[/QUOTE] I don't oppose movements. But if the people in a group can't work out demands that aren't completely impractical, then they aren't worth listening to. "More female representation" makes sense. "More variety in stories and play" makes sense. "Don't offend me" does not make sense, and I can't respect anyone who makes that demand.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45126068]And it's a thing that, similarly, happens disproportionately and that people would like to see less off! Games don't exist on a vacuum; they reflect society. And media can affect how society thinks. Video games aren't imaginary: they're media.[/QUOTE] Society doesnt exist on a vacuum either, what society are you talking about? There are plenty of people who never are affected by media, because 1, they think for themselves, or 2, they have no media at all or pay any attention to it. So what society are being affected and what makes there problems more important than another? You cannot say society is reflected by media just because its involved in a lot of peoples lives, its a horrible generalization. Especially when talking about games, do you realize how much of the majority of gamers couldnt give 2 fucks about this shit? You just dont hear them say anything because they dont care, they are the people who just play games randomly and not actually care about the industry or talk about them, games arent even affecting them the way they are supposed with the story, let alone some obscure attempt at attacking a group or something, like its gonna imprint in there fucking brains or some shit.

The "exotic spices" comment is right on the money and a personal pet peeve of mine. Nothing takes me out of an experience like another Asian NPC in another seedy city trying to sell herself in broken English. It's not even just offensive anymore so much as just [I]boring[/I]. Completely disagree with pretty much all of the open world section of the video though. I don't buy the toaster analogy wherein because female NPC's are in the game you are expected to target them specifically for sexual gratification, violent or otherwise. They are in the game because 51% of the human population is female. As for complaining about how many open world games have strip joints and brothels, that's because most open world games take place in dense urban centers that often have atleast an element of poverty to them where a red light district fits perfectly. Even in most of those games, there are usually just one or two in the entire game area just to give it the feeling of a city. It's no different from an elevated train or a parking garage. Of course there are games that don't fit that mold, either medieval-themed fantasy RPGs like The Witcher or post-apocalyptic games like Fallout but, echoing Zeke's earlier post, I feel like the latter handles it really well. I think where I would draw the line is where you are outright given a benefit or cause to assault strippers, prostitutes, or women in general. I really don't see them as background sex objects in games where I can just as easily take a bat to a businessman or run over cops trying to escape a bank heist. The use of Human Revolution I think really kind of harmed her argument because you could tell that you gained absolutely nothing from murdering women in that game regardless of what social strata they belong to. Just like most of the men NPC's in the bars or on the streets or in the offices they are there to fill out the world. [editline]16th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126152]There are plenty of people who never are affected by media[/QUOTE] Everyone is affected by media.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;45126173] Everyone is affected by media.[/QUOTE] So those random tribes who live in rain forests/Africa who have probably never seen a single form of media, are now affected by media?

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125513]I think you're being extremely reducting of the whole issue. It's really dumb to say that "white men can never understand minorities or write them with respect" because your skin color or your gender does not exclude you from being able to understand a minority's struggle. That's why men can be feminists and white people can take a stand against racism. (in a way it's sort of similar to the argument of "men do this; women do this"; there are more differences within categories of people than between categories of people) [/QUOTE] I am not saying it is impossible because of [I]biological[/I] reasons so much as [I]social[/I] reasons, you silly, silly man. If one race and/or gender sits at the top of privilege and treats all others like shit, how is anything they write about minorities not dishonest at [I]best[/I]? I can't take whites writing about minorities as seriously as a minority writing about issues that they can honestly say truly hurt and mean something to them. On top of that, look at how white privilege and patriarchy have not only entrenched themselves into the fabric of society, but into the English language and thought itself. How "black" is associated with evil and horror, or how "white" is associated with purity and light. How female or femininity and similar words get associated with physical weakness. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45125513]Patriarchy isn't "indoctrination", it's a system of existing pre-conceptions and prejudices that exist there "by default"...[/QUOTE] Perhaps "indoctrination" was the wrong word to use, but the system was made by straight white men who, consciously or unconsciously, have interest in continuing its existence and breaks women into believing such a system is good for them. My point still stands. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45126033]I feel like all of this is being marketed really poorly. If it was framed as artists being limited by cultural bullshit instead of artists poisoning society, I think you'd find people being a lot more receptive. I know that once I figured that bit out, I sure was.[/QUOTE] Is there any real difference between conscious and unconscious action when the end result is the same?

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126106]By using racism, misogyny and discrimination in something allows people to learn from whoever is directing the story, you are able to see a recreating of whatever is at hand. None of us were alive in slave times yet we know so much about it, there are so many movies/shows/books all about, a lot fiction as well written by people who were also not alive in slave times. Why would I want some bland, sterile, equal loving game over one thats taking risks?[/QUOTE] To be fair, considering the amount of racism, misogyny and discrimination as background radiation in media, it's making a "sterile equal loving game" that would be taking risks... :v: [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126214]So those random tribes who live in rain forests/Africa who have probably never seen a single form of media, are now affected by media?[/QUOTE] Don't be obtuse. It's obvious we're talking about people who have access to media.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45126230]To be fair, considering the amount of racism, misogyny and discrimination as background radiation in media, it's making a "sterile equal loving game" that would be taking risks... :v:[/QUOTE] Actually not really at all, because we already know how that would turn out. One big circlejerk where everyone just likes each other and no conflict of people in the world and this is speaking of humans in video games. I know ME would be a lot less interesting if all the aliens liked each other because there conflicts between races really stood out and was really interesting, if they all loved each other thats all it would be, they just love each other. How risky.

I can't stand Sarkeesian's videos, regardless of the points she makes. The pacing is horrible, the editing is awful and she prioritizes showing her own face over showing material/footage way too much. The point of voice-overs is that you voice over footage, not that you talk while staying dead-idle and staring right at the camera. On her points, well, they're all dumb as shit. "Video games are sexist because some games have a brothel level and open world games let the player kill women/hire prostitutes" is really fucking dumb. A lot of her examples have a direct male counterpart in the same games she complains about, others are actually made up (sleeping with prostitutes in GTA does NOT give you bonus stats) and the amount of nitpicking is astounding.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126214]So those random tribes who live in rain forests/Africa who have probably never seen a single form of media, are now affected by media?[/QUOTE] Don't shitpost, you know well what I mean.