Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45126230]To be fair, considering the amount of racism, misogyny and discrimination as background radiation in media, it's making a "sterile equal loving game" that would be taking risks... :v: [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] Don't be obtuse. It's obvious we're talking about people who have access to media.[/QUOTE] Obtuse? You are the one making it seem like society is one big thing, and issues in 1 countries society are very very different than another. So your society that you love to talk about isnt the same as others, so why would it be more important/influenced, and why? Plus media is a part of a lot of peoples lives, just how everything else that has ever been in your life has, media does not [B]reflect [/B]peoples lives, your [B]own [/B]life and actions reflect your life. Not some whores in a GTA game.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45126263]I can't stand Sarkeesian's videos, regardless of the points she makes. The pacing is horrible, the editing is awful and she prioritizes showing her own face over showing material/footage way too much. The point of voice-overs is that you voice over footage, not that you talk while staying dead-idle and staring right at the camera.[/QUOTE] Yeah I don't really like the talking head style videos, it feels like I'm talking to somebody in Oblivion [QUOTE=Frosty701;45126102]So, if all the females mentioned in this video were all replaced with men with the same purpose, would she still be buttmad?[/QUOTE] If -hypothetical thing that would never ever actually happen- actually happened would X person be angry? That hypothetical hypocrite! checkmate, feminism

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126296]Obtuse? You are the one making it seem like society is one big thing, and issues in 1 countries society are very very different than another.[/QUOTE] If they are so different, why do western societies all share the same patriarchal trend? [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45126296]media does not [B]reflect [/B]peoples lives, your [B]own [/B]life and actions reflect your life.[/QUOTE] This has got to be one of the most willfully ignorant statements you've ever made. You're completely dismissing an enormous amount of societal trends here. But if this is actually a view you hold, a good place to start reading and educating yourself on how media shapes society would be the effects of advertising on people.

I can't take Anita Snorkesian seriously ever since I found out that she thinks Mulan is a terrible female character.

Having drugs in games is highly offensive. My friend was killed by a drug dealer in a drive-by shooting. Having drugs displayed in games only continues to perpetuate the subjugation of those addicted to drugs affected by drug-related violence. The ending of GTA IV deeply offended me because you could do a drug deal. A criminal could do a drug deal and shoot drug dealers. How is this not objectifying the poor and the people of the world who are affected by drugs?

[QUOTE=General J;45126390]I can't take Anita Snorkesian seriously ever since I found out that she thinks Mulan is a terrible female character.[/QUOTE] I stopped taking Anita Sarkeesian seriously when people found out most of her game footage was borrowed from other sources without permission.

[QUOTE=Explosions;45126396]Having drugs in games is highly offensive. My friend was killed by a drug dealer in a drive-by shooting. Having drugs displayed in games only continues to perpetuate the subjugation of those addicted to drugs affected by drug-related violence. The ending of GTA IV deeply offended me because you could do a drug deal. A criminal could do a drug deal and shoot drug dealers. How is this not objectifying the poor and the people of the world who are affected by drugs?[/QUOTE] how can you even compare the two? she explains quite clearly what she means. it's not "these women are prostitues, and this offends me", it's "there are way too many objectified women in games, and it has reached a point where some of them literally serve the same function as a health pack, and are, thus, objectified" unless, of course, you didn't even watch the video and only came here to make a snarky comment, but that couldn't be the case, could it?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45126502]how can you even compare the two? she explains quite clearly what she means. it's not "these women are prostitues, and this offends me", it's "there are way too many objectified women in games, and it has reached a point where some of them literally serve the same function as a health pack, and are, thus, objectified" unless, of course, you didn't even watch the video and only came here to make a snarky comment, but that couldn't be the case, could it?[/QUOTE] Did you even read my post? Drugs and drug violence is it's own version of a "health pack." It's nothing more than a convenient plot device and a fun mission to go on. Drug users are constantly used as generic enemy goons and disposable people in almost every genre I can think of. The fact that you just dismiss my post as a "snarky comment" just shows how ingrained this disregard towards the victims of drugs really is in our society, and you're just part of the problem.

I love how comments and ratings are disabled. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, Anita.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;45126658]I love how comments and ratings are disabled. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, Anita.[/QUOTE] Because youtube comments are really the bastion of well rounded debate.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45126502]how can you even compare the two? she explains quite clearly what she means. it's not "these women are prostitues, and this offends me", it's "there are way too many objectified women in games, and it has reached a point where some of them literally serve the same function as a health pack, and are, thus, objectified" unless, of course, you didn't even watch the video and only came here to make a snarky comment, but that couldn't be the case, could it?[/QUOTE] Her point isn't even that there's too many of them, it's that they're turned into objects and/or powerups, and her point falls apart when she starts talking about gta V, a game where hiring prostitutes gives you absolutely no powerups. She runs her own argument to the ground by picking a game that contradicts her own point, losing all credibility at the same time because it just shows that [I]she hasn't even played the sodding game.[/I]

her bringing the witcher series into this is the most blatantly hypocritical thing she could've done considering how often the game deals with mysoginy [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] she really doesn't seem to grasp the concept of social critique, also coming up with max payne as an example, where the ghettos and shanty towns are populated by prostitutes [I]but they are[/I]

[QUOTE=Explosions;45126620]Did you even read my post? Drugs and drug violence is it's own version of a "health pack." It's nothing more than a convenient plot device and a fun mission to go on. Drug users are constantly used as generic enemy goons and disposable people in almost every genre I can think of. The fact that you just dismiss my post as a "snarky comment" just shows how ingrained this disregard towards the victims of drugs really is in our society, and you're just part of the problem.[/QUOTE] Weren't all the scientist in hl1 basically health packs? [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Valnar;45126666]Because youtube comments are really the bastion of well rounded debate.[/QUOTE] It's not so much the content as the principle of stating your challenge and your arguments ad expression your views like they're oppressed And then oppressing any other views from bein show

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45126754]Her point isn't even that there's too many of them, it's that they're turned into objects and/or powerups, and her point falls apart when she starts talking about gta V, a game where hiring prostitutes gives you absolutely no powerups. She runs her own argument to the ground by picking a game that contradicts her own point, losing all credibility at the same time because it just shows that [I]she hasn't even played the sodding game.[/I][/QUOTE] you do realize that it's a 30 minute video, right? she can have more than one point

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;45126930]It's not so much the content as the principle of stating your challenge and your arguments ad expression your views like they're oppressed And then oppressing any other views from bein show[/QUOTE] But you aren't being stopped from expressing stating your challenge. You can still do that over other mediums. Here, twitter, [URL="http://www.feministfrequency.com/contact/"]direct contact[/URL], and I'm pretty sure you can also comment on most things for her facebook. Those are just a couple of ways you can express your views. Does absolutely anything of value ever going to come out of those comments? Would you even be able to actually express your views through youtube? Everything kinda gets drowned out there.

I wonder why FP keeps going back to this... It's always the same shit.

That video makes me want to scream very loud.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45126371]If they are so different, why do western societies all share the same patriarchal trend? This has got to be one of the most willfully ignorant statements you've ever made. You're completely dismissing an enormous amount of societal trends here. But if this is actually a view you hold, a good place to start reading and educating yourself on how media shapes society would be the effects of advertising on people.[/QUOTE] Living your life apparently doesnt reflect your life now and seems to be only media? Really sad and deluded if you think its so black and white. Why are you only including western? What parts of the west? And if you really wanna know, this issue goes way past any media, this shit has gone on for thousands of years Max, this isnt some new age problem, and you honestly undermine the issues by complaining about fantasy "misogyny" something I havent actually personally seen, I have never seen a single game express true misogyny as being the hatred of women, I actually only hear that word used as a parroted label actually, the word has sadly lost its weight to most people, just like racist/sexist have, im sometimes believe you dont even know what the word means. You seem so bent on whatever you argue against, why arent you more active in the feminist community or whatever? You seem to focus a lot on video games, which is art and shouldnt be controlled by anyone, yet do you even go out and actually rally, go to actual discussions in real life, I dont mean circlejerking ones, I mean ones that are in depth and possibly challenge your current views yet are from the "same" movement? I mean being an active member of shitredditsays and thebluepill are not actually ways to improve your cause, or arguing about fantasy women in video games(while apparently ignoring all the muscle bound 8 pack men in every game) you could be out in the streets making an actual difference in the serious real life issues. I really want you too think about this and put your hot love for me behind and honestly think what you are doing, you are trying to argue and complain to devs that there games are not fit enough for what you think, please tell me why you are right and they are in the wrong when they are trying to make art and tell a story or create some fantasy world? Its like going to Quentin Tarantino and telling him that he shouldnt use racism as a focus of in his movie. You are telling an artists work that they are wrong, yet its there creation so obviously its right on its own. Devs dont have a grudge against society, they arent trying to mindcontrol people with some fucking slutty npcs from time to time, things that only appear in VERY few games series, and all the toxicity I see surrounding this does not help games, telling devs they are racist/misognoist/sexist does not help anyone and it happens all the time, and whether you admit or not Max, the type of people who do this shit are the type of people you follow, they will straight out call some dev these awful things, publicly, for everyone to see, or "journalists", the type that get on metacritic. You really think this is a good way to go about things? Because its real and it happens and its the vocal minority but its a loud one and you clearly follow the same mindset. If you truly cared about games and were passionate you would realize how absurd you come off, you may act like you care but you dont seem to truly embrace and appreciate game as a media, and instead want to hold it back with a group of people that are offended. You try to make this more about women and act like people are angry because its women and shit, but if you wanna know why people hate you and people like you, its because you are the type of people that hold shit back, you want shit the way you want instead of the way the actual creators want, the worst part is, you hold your wishes above others and hide behind things like feminism and calling people things like sexist/misogynistic. I always see AAA being the example for this yet AAA are a very small fraction of the game industry, you only hear of a few big ones, generally already well established series, while nothing else, most shit I see now are indies. Im done with this thread, its gonna just keep going on and on, but honestly I wouldnt be surprised you got removed from a certain project because of your attitude and outlook, because you are a detriment to video games, you telling people what they should and shouldnt do in an artistic medium, you are the type of people who hold it back, not the ones who put in stuff that offends you, its the people who whine for change in something like this. You can cry about equal rights or whatever, but art has no time or place for that, its up to the creators and they shouldnt be harrased to be persuaded otherwise. Hopefully you change someday and can actually enjoy and critique all games for what they are and do, instead of complaining about mundane shit in make believe.

"I mean being an active member of shitredditsays and thebluepill are not actually ways to improve your cause, or arguing about fantasy women in video games(while apparently ignoring all the muscle bound 8 pack men in every game) you could be out in the streets making an actual difference in the serious real life issues." and video game feminism ends wish it would

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45127174]Living your life apparently doesnt reflect your life now and seems to be only media? Really sad and deluded if you think its so black and white. Why are you only including western? What parts of the west? And if you really wanna know, this issue goes way past any media, this shit has gone on for thousands of years Max, this isnt some new age problem, and you honestly undermine the issues by complaining about fantasy "misogyny" something I havent actually personally seen, I have never seen a single game express true misogyny as being the hatred of women, I actually only hear that word used as a parroted label actually, the word has sadly lost its weight to most people, just like racist/sexist have, im sometimes believe you dont even know what the word means. You seem so bent on whatever you argue against, why arent you more active in the feminist community or whatever? You seem to focus a lot on video games, which is art and shouldnt be controlled by anyone, yet do you even go out and actually rally, go to actual discussions in real life, I dont mean circlejerking ones, I mean ones that are in depth and possibly challenge your current views yet are from the "same" movement? I mean being an active member of shitredditsays and thebluepill are not actually ways to improve your cause, or arguing about fantasy women in video games(while apparently ignoring all the muscle bound 8 pack men in every game) you could be out in the streets making an actual difference in the serious real life issues. I really want you too think about this and put your hot love for me behind and honestly think what you are doing, you are trying to argue and complain to devs that there games are not fit enough for what you think, please tell me why you are right and they are in the wrong when they are trying to make art and tell a story or create some fantasy world? Its like going to Quentin Tarantino and telling him that he shouldnt use racism as a focus of in his movie. You are telling an artists work that they are wrong, yet its there creation so obviously its right on its own. Devs dont have a grudge against society, they arent trying to mindcontrol people with some fucking slutty npcs from time to time, things that only appear in VERY few games series, and all the toxicity I see surrounding this does not help games, telling devs they are racist/misognoist/sexist does not help anyone and it happens all the time, and whether you admit or not Max, the type of people who do this shit are the type of people you follow, they will straight out call some dev these awful things, publicly, for everyone to see, or "journalists", the type that get on metacritic. You really think this is a good way to go about things? Because its real and it happens and its the vocal minority but its a loud one and you clearly follow the same mindset. If you truly cared about games and were passionate you would realize how absurd you come off, you may act like you care but you dont seem to truly embrace and appreciate game as a media, and instead want to hold it back with a group of people that are offended. You try to make this more about women and act like people are angry because its women and shit, but if you wanna know why people hate you and people like you, its because you are the type of people that hold shit back, you want shit the way you want instead of the way the actual creators want, the worst part is, you hold your wishes above others and hide behind things like feminism and calling people things like sexist/misogynistic. I always see AAA being the example for this yet AAA are a very small fraction of the game industry, you only hear of a few big ones, generally already well established series, while nothing else, most shit I see now are indies. Im done with this thread, its gonna just keep going on and on, but honestly I wouldnt be surprised you got removed from a certain project because of your attitude and outlook, because you are a detriment to video games, you telling people what they should and shouldnt do in an artistic medium, you are the type of people who hold it back, not the ones who put in stuff that offends you, its the people who whine for change in something like this. You can cry about equal rights or whatever, but art has no time or place for that, its up to the creators and they shouldnt be harrased to be persuaded otherwise. Hopefully you change someday and can actually enjoy and critique all games for what they are and do, instead of complaining about mundane shit in make believe.[/QUOTE] I'm not Max and can't speak for him or respond to much of what you said, but I can throw in my two cents. Personally, I step into these discussions because if an opinion is left unvoiced then the opposing viewpoint becomes the majority opinion and people start believing it. The people who take the time to discuss these things tend to be the most passionate, they want change because they appreciate games as an art form and take them seriously. Anita Sarkeesian isn't one of these people, although she can throw out an okay point every now and then she's not a gamer and is generally full of shit. When people say games and other media are "sexist" they don't usually mean overtly. Patriarchal culture was created through subtle means that suggest male supremacy and female subordination, and it rubs off in real life. That's why feminist literature exists, it's a way of influencing our culture and the way people think. Feminism is a [I]progressive[/I] movement, it aims for social [I]progress[/I]. That doesn't mean holding art back, it means moving it forward by addressing any inequalities presented. You're right though, developers don't hold a grudge against society. However, the content of their games are about as influential as any other media so games can be treated as "sexist" even when they're not intended to be - same as all media. Saying "art has no time or place for [equal rights]" is laughable. Labelling something as "art" doesn't make it immune to criticism, it makes it subject to it. All in all I think you underestimate how much art and media does shape our real world lives. It's blatantly obvious that the issue goes past any media and you're foolish if you think we don't know that, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the issues in media entirely.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45124200]Those eyebrows oh my god.[/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/zC1zoAR.png[/img]

Not gonna bother with most of your points that are directed at Max, but let me just say this: [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45127174]You seem to focus a lot on video games, which is art and shouldnt be controlled by anyone[/QUOTE] I don't understand why you and a lot of other posters in these kinds of threads seem to have this fixation with the idea that, if someone would rather have movies, games or other kinds of media not include certain things, they're trying to "control" those art forms. That's silly. Saying "I'd rather have movies that focus on a certain type of character" doesn't mean I'm trying to control what movies need to focus on, it means that it's my opinion that movies would benefit from doing so. In the case of sexism and videogames, it may also mean that I think that better representations of women may have an effect on negative societal trends. Secondly, keep in mind that even though games and movies are an art form, there's no denying that they're heavily influenced by marketing. It's a business after all, and trying to label the constant stream of samefaced characters we get from big companies as "artistic freedom" is comparable to covering your ears and going "lalala". A lot of the decisions aren't made by artists who are including all that they want into the game, but by people who don't think that a female lead character would sell, or that a black lead character isn't relatable enough. When people criticize the lack of playable females in games or the amount of sexualized NPCs in games, they're not only expressing why all that may be considering offensive, they're also hoping that it makes developers and publishers realize that there IS a demand for certain things in triple A titles, and this doesn't mean they're trying to control what is made and released. And last but not least, I have to say that art is not exempt from criticism. Just because something is "art", it doesn't mean that it can't be considered offensive or just straight up bad. Would you also defend that one filmmaker who showed a close-up of a boy masturbating, because films are art? Can't you still go too far, even when expressing something through an artistic medium? [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45127174]Devs dont have a grudge against society, they arent trying to mindcontrol people with some fucking slutty npcs from time to time, things that only appear in VERY few games series[/QUOTE] This is another thing I don't understand. Why do you need to have a grudge against someone in order to offend them? Stuff like "They didn't think "hey, let's make a really sexist and offensive design" before they created it"- well, of course they didn't think that, but that doesn't mean it's not just as sexist and offensive. I can say something really racist to someone without realizing that it is insulting. And it's the same deal when you're talking about mindcontrolling people. Just because you're not actively trying to change someone's opinion or perpetuate negative sterotypes it doesn't mean you're not doing exactly that. Like it has already been discussed, almost everyone is affected by the media. Over [url=http://www.pewinternet.org/data-trend/internet-use/latest-stats/]80%[/url] of Americans use the internet. Americans also spend an average of 2 hours online, and 4 hours watching TV daily ([url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/tv-digital-devices_n_3691196.html]source[/url]). Even if you think for yourself, you're still being affected by the media. Millions of dollars are put into the advertisement industry. A 30 sec Super Bowl commercial is priced at around 4 million dollars. Why is that? because ads work. They affect people, like it or not. If those ads are perpetuating negative sterotypes and banalizing them, chances are, other people are more likely to banalize and perpetuate them, too. As for your claim that very few game series include slutty NPCs, well, that's just objectively wrong. Here's a few: Dragon Age: Origins GTA III, Vice City, San Andreas, IV and V Max Payne 3 The Saboteur Skyrim Fallout 3 and Fallout NV Mortal Kombat God of War The Witcher 2 Deus Ex: Human Revolution Hitman: Absolution Mafia II Dishonored Farcry 3 The Godfather II Assassin's Creed Saints Row Sleeping Dogs The Darkness 2

the only reason the OP video was made was to generate publicity and controversy the points are flawed in whatever ways they are flawed on purpose it's bait, and everyone just keeps on taking it every goddamn time good on ya anita nice business

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45127765]As for your claim that very few game series include slutty NPCs, well, that's just objectively wrong. Here's a few:[/quote] Literally every single one of those games can also be blamed for having power fantasy male characters too. It's not like slutty female characters is the only bad thing about video games.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45127842]Literally every single one of those games can also be blamed for having power fantasy male characters too. It's not like slutty female characters is the only bad thing about video games.[/QUOTE] ...And when did I say they were?

[QUOTE=lexus04;45127830]the only reason the OP video was made was to generate publicity and controversy the points are flawed in the ways they are on purpose it's bait, and everyone just keeps on taking it every goddamn time good on ya anita nice business[/QUOTE] Who cares she doesn't get views/pageclicks/ad revenue when you watch the video from an embedded external player.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;45127463]I'm not Max and can't speak for him or respond to much of what you said, but I can throw in my two cents. Personally, I step into these discussions because if an opinion is left unvoiced then the opposing viewpoint becomes the majority opinion and people start believing it. The people who take the time to discuss these things tend to be the most passionate, they want change because they appreciate games as an art form and take them seriously. Anita Sarkeesian isn't one of these people, although she can throw out an okay point every now and then she's not a gamer and is generally full of shit. When people say games and other media are "sexist" they don't usually mean overtly. Patriarchal culture was created through subtle means that suggest male supremacy and female subordination, and it rubs off in real life. That's why feminist literature exists, it's a way of influencing our culture and the way people think. Feminism is a [I]progressive[/I] movement, it aims for social [I]progress[/I]. That doesn't mean holding art back, it means moving it forward by addressing any inequalities presented. You're right though, developers don't hold a grudge against society. However, the content of their games are about as influential as any other media so games can be treated as "sexist" even when they're not intended to be - same as all media. Saying "art has no time or place for [equal rights]" is laughable. Labelling something as "art" doesn't make it immune to criticism, it makes it subject to it. All in all I think you underestimate how much art and media does shape our real world lives. It's blatantly obvious that the issue goes past any media and you're foolish if you think we don't know that, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the issues in media entirely.[/QUOTE] I said I was done but you made a great response, im not saying art and media dont have influence, but people treat it way to black and white, its part of our lives, people with tv/internet/newspapers, yet at the same time, its not a huge major influence, theres way too many variables in life to pin it on something like media or art, which is why I find it really pointless to target those specific things, life is so complicated that in the history of the human race, not a single person has figured it out. I will stand by still thinking art has no time or place or any sort of equality because it really is up to the creators, it should be critiqued and held responsible for what it portrays, I will never deny that, but at the same time it shouldnt be harassed by fucking armys of people spouting toxic and very serious labels against people across the internet, which has become a huge problem in the past like 3 years and very exclusively a modern problem. This type of behavior seriously harms peoples jobs and just general opinion of them. I really cannot stand seeing a dev being called sexist/racist/misogynist, when its clearly not and only being a parroted word a the time. What most people dont get is that this has serious consequences. Call a dev something awful like that, everyone sees it, people start spreading it around, this dev is now being outed exclusively, boss takes notice, etc etc. Its extremely unfair and damaging to people that are doing what they love and it happens ALL THE TIME. Feminism is a progressive movement and a movement I can get behind, women being treated like shit is still very prevalent today but luckily changing even in extreme countries with extreme practices/beliefs, but I honestly believe it has no place in books/movies/games/tv shows, these creations should be free reign and untouched or influenced by a group of offended people since offensive shit is very subjective. It has already been shown that we as a species have constantly outgrown past social stigmas and the man vs female shit is slowly coming closer and closer to becoming far less of an issue, I mean look at gays in the past 14 years from 2000, the entire outlook is drastically different, people dont care, its a slow process but its happening. Trust me, I support actual feminist, the people who know what they are fighting for and know how to handle it, what I dont support are these fucking keyboard SJW warriors, I mean there really isnt any other label for them, they sit behind a keyboard, complain and whine because something isnt there way, yet do NOTHING productive to help it. How can I get behind someone who isnt even taking a serious movement seriously? There isnt anything serious or productive that includes about complaining about gender in a video game, a game should not have to bend to equality, its a big reason its such a unique media compared to any other, its pretty much the only one as of now that gives you control of actions and lets you create the character, even games with well characterized characters still have a sense of letting you truly decide how the person is, no media is like this, maybe like goosebumps choose your own story but thats it. And when you say [B]When people say games and other media are "sexist" they don't usually mean overtly [/B]I really wish I could agree, This sadly doesnt apply anymore, at least to games, I see way too many people parroting shit and using extreme words like sexist to describe someone or something when it clearly isnt, the words have lost serious weight and the people causing that are the people trying to fight against that, but sadly they are so conceited and honestly retarded they truly believe they are right. I would love if actual, smart and mature feminists who know what the fuck they were talking about and fighting for were more prevalent in the game industry, I know I said no artists should pander but I cant lie saying good critique is wasted on it, its quite the opposite, yet these types of people are overwhelmed by the awful tumblr/reddit/newage garbage and highschool/college heavy feminism thats become extremely toxic on the internet, these fucking people who think shit should always go there way because they hide behind a controversial subject. Any of the real life feminist shit ive watched or listened to in live talks are really well thought out and smart, they dont use feminism or unequality as a crutch, but more as a strength to there cause, they fight real issues that actual are an effect on our modern western society and not some blog tier video game shit that passes in a week and is forgotten, no these people fight for long term rights, shit thats been plaguing them for generations. There are way too many in the loud vocal majority(who are a minority in themselves) who just spout nonsense and get angered over anything, this is where my disagreements and anger come from, its these people who I honestly believe dont care about games yet care more about themselves because otherwise they would let a game grow on its own and hold it to its own merits, and not shit such as "not enough women portrayal" any sort of equality like that DOES put a handicap on art, since it can become some pseduo-requirement where as if you excluded it you would be harassed, just how a lot of devs are today daily. How would you feel, after all the years you put into something as massive as GTAV, a game that has been already officially said to be satire of America and just a game about fun and crudeness, to then be harassed being called sexist or misogynistic? This is the type of shit that gets front page on a lot of glorified game blogs that showboat as if they were real reviewers. Trust me, im all for well written characters of both genders, it helps a game out so I love it, but sometimes it can be better to focus a single or a few, than a bunch, even if gender is an issue, because it will end up being a higher quality game because what it had to focus on was focused on, which is what I truly care about in games. I want good games, games I can objectively look at and come across faults/pros that come in all shapes and sizes, why would I want to spend all my time and energy wasting on something like gender in a make believe video game? I wanna spend my time seeing how well its designed, how good it looks either graphically or style wise, I wanna see its writing, its characters, its sounds, worlds, music, all of that. Gender honestly is the least important thing because a gender DOES NOT make a game, it never has, it never will. Id rather have a well made game that focused on its strengths, than one that broke into pandering because some people were offended which ends up making it less than what it could have been.

whoa

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45127765] Dragon Age: Origins GTA III, Vice City, San Andreas, IV and V Max Payne 3 The Saboteur Skyrim Fallout 3 and Fallout NV Mortal Kombat God of War The Witcher 2 Deus Ex: Human Revolution Hitman: Absolution Mafia II Dishonored Farcry 3 The Godfather II Assassin's Creed Saints Row Sleeping Dogs The Darkness 2[/QUOTE] GTA and Saints Row are satirical. The Witcher handles misogyny and discrimination all throughout. Fallout New Vegas has some of the most well written 'slutty' women who aren't just mindless sex bombs.

I'm surprised that people are still so up in arms over this Tropes vs Women stuff. Its pretty sad.