Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=Novangel;45127899]GTA and Saints Row are satirical. The Witcher handles misogyny and discrimination all throughout. Fallout New Vegas has some of the most well written 'slutty' women who aren't just mindless sex bombs.[/QUOTE] I know. They're still slutty NPCs though, which, according to hoodedsniper, are in very few games (hint hes wrong)

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45127765]Dragon Age: Origins GTA III, Vice City, San Andreas, IV and V Max Payne 3 The Saboteur Skyrim Fallout 3 and Fallout NV Mortal Kombat God of War The Witcher 2 Deus Ex: Human Revolution Hitman: Absolution Mafia II Dishonored Farcry 3 The Godfather II Assassin's Creed Saints Row Sleeping Dogs The Darkness 2[/QUOTE] Why are you adding in games that are either satire or just straight up portraying SOME WOMEN as being sluts because, guess what, there ARE some sluts in real life? And do note, I think the difference is in portraying every woman as a slut, or just a few, which iirc, games do the second. Not even satirical games do the first. Or is it a trigger warning or some shit of the sort aswell? We can't portray sluts anymore? Man this whole argument just keeps getting worse and worse. Feminism and transgenderism or whatever on the internet is a fucking JOKE.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128058]I know. They're still slutty NPCs though, which, according to hoodedsniper, are in very few games (hint hes wrong)[/QUOTE] Oops, misread the post then.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128058]I know. They're still slutty NPCs though, which, according to hoodedsniper, are in very few games (hint hes wrong)[/QUOTE] So what do you want done in the future about slutty NPCs in games where they may be present, exactly? If you don't want them to be gone, then what?

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;45128070]Why are you adding in games that are either satire or just straight up portraying SOME WOMEN as being sluts because, guess what, there ARE some sluts in real life?[/quote] First off, he said there aren't a lot of games that have slutty NPCs, that's all. Satirical or not, all those games do have slutty NPCs. [quote]Man this whole argument just keeps getting worse and worse. Feminism and transgenderism or whatever on the internet is a fucking JOKE.[/QUOTE] "feminism and transgenderism or whatever" what? when did we start talking about transgenderism?

I can only think of two series that aren't just straight up porn and that have female characters made of pure 100% slutty fan service : Dead or Alive and Duke Nukem - and the latter is also pure satire, at least 3D was (Forever was just distasteful/poorly written). There are games with very poorly written characters and slutty characters, sure, but there isn't a single game I can think of apart from the two series I mentioned above that have literally nothing but slutty characters. Maybe Dragon Age 2 since everyone wants to sleep with you, and even that's just a matter of poor writing (that affects both sexes, mind you). The other big thing is that games with slutty characters are also games with power fantasy characters, either male or female - it's not a matter of women being poorly depicted in ways that reinforce sexist stereotypes, it's a matter of games being poorly written overall.

Where does The Darkness 2 have slutty women besides right at the beginning? besides that, there aren't any, and the one woman in it is literally the most empowered woman in creation

[QUOTE=The freeman;45128094]So what do you want done in the future about slutty NPCs in games where they may be present, exactly? If you don't want them to be gone, then what?[/QUOTE] You could make it so that they don't give you any benefits. What exactly would we lose if prostitutes were just random pedestrians with a couple more lines? Or, since the goal is obviously equality, why not add slutty male NPCs?

-sNip-

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128195]You could make it so that they don't give you any benefits. What exactly would we lose if prostitutes were just random pedestrians with a couple more lines? Or, since the goal is obviously equality, why not add slutty male NPCs?[/QUOTE] The goal isn't equality. The goal is good writing. No one with a slight bit of sense gives a shit about equality in video games. They're fiction, they're entertainment, and in most cases, they're made to pull you out of your comfort zone. About making it so prostitutes don't give benefits - guess what, in most games, they don't, and in most games they're also just random pedestrians with a couple more lines : binary domain has some prostitute NPCs but they do nothing, Deus Ex Human Revolution has whores that you can do nothing with, and GTA doesn't actually give you benefits for paying whores or strippers, you only lose money by doing so, same with Metro (in the first metro game, you even get scammed if you try to hire a prostitute). The amount of games where you can actually hire whores (let alone gain gameplay benefits from it) is very limited. [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=theevilldeadII;45128214]can someone tell which games are in this so I don't spoil it.[/QUOTE] Screencapped from the video description since I can't seem to be able to copy/paste it : [t]http://puu.sh/9x6O2/3a8bec0762.png[/t]

is that Max Payne clip a spoiler.

[QUOTE=theevilldeadII;45128244]is that Max Payne clip a spoiler.[/QUOTE] Not really

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45128217]The goal isn't equality. The goal is good writing. No one with a slight bit of sense gives a shit about equality in video games. They're fiction, they're entertainment, and in most cases, they're made to pull you out of your comfort zone.[/QUOTE] So are you saying it'd be ok to glorify a white supremacist and add in nothing but negative stereotypes of black people if it was in a masterfully written game? Nothing wrong with that at all? Is wanting good writing AND equality too much?

[QUOTE=theevilldeadII;45128244]is that Max Payne clip a spoiler.[/QUOTE] It's not, it's just footage of Max walking through a brothel.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128262]So are you saying it'd be ok to glorify a white supremacist and add in nothing but negative stereotypes of black people if it was in a masterfully written game? Nothing wrong with that at all? Is wanting good writing AND equality too much?[/QUOTE] We gamers are a feeble people who cannot handle such things.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128262]So are you saying it'd be ok to glorify a white supremacist and add in nothing but negative stereotypes of black people if it was in a masterfully written game? Nothing wrong with that at all? Is wanting good writing AND equality too much?[/QUOTE] if it was a masterfully written critique of a terrible time in our history sure

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45128273]if it was a masterfully written critique of a terrible time in our history sure[/QUOTE] But if it wasn't criticizing anything other than black people (and if it wasn't a satirical game, either), you agree that it would be incredibly fucked up?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128262]So are you saying it'd be ok to glorify a white supremacist and add in nothing but negative stereotypes of black people if it was in a masterfully written game? Nothing wrong with that at all? Is wanting good writing AND equality too much?[/QUOTE] I think it'd be okay, yes, because it's a video game, not a fucking life lesson. If having racist stereotypes and a hateful main character/side characters can make a game better, then go for it. Do you think Hotline Miami would have been as impactful if the game wasn't so filled with stereotypes pushed to the extreme ? Do you think Bioshock Infinite's columbia would have felt as sick and rotten if Black people weren't relegated to the rank of servants/scape goats ? There's a difference between using stereotypes for a story and condoning them. When you get to torture a random immigrant for information in GTA V, the developers aren't telling you "this is how you should treat immigrants, because they're all linked with terrorist groups", they're pointing at an issue and they're telling you to think about it. If you can't understand that then you might as well stop playing video games altogether.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45128305]I think it'd be okay, yes, because it's a video game, not a fucking life lesson. If having racist stereotypes and a hateful main character/side characters can make a game better, then go for it. Do you think Hotline Miami would have been as impactful if the game wasn't so filled with stereotypes pushed to the extreme ? Do you think Bioshock Infinite's columbia would have felt as sick and rotten if Black people weren't relegated to the rank of servants/scape goats ?[/QUOTE] Not a single one of those glorifies racism [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] And again, GTA is satirical. The whole point of that mission was to poke fun at American agencies who torture people needlessly

Good job missing my point entirely. My point is, you can't blame a game for being racist/hateful/sexist/whatever when that's used by the game to improve the story and the message it conveys. If games were all about equality and representation of minorities then games would be boring as shit. Also, you want a game that glorifies racism ? Skyrim. It's a fantasy, sure, but the entire Stormcloak movement (a movement the player is entirely free to agree with, follow and enforce) is the most racist fucking thing ever, and if you choose to follow them, all of their actions are glorified (because they appear good to the eyes of the player character, since he willingly decided to follow the cause). It's also very obviously inspired from nationalistic movement in real life that plague and have plagued many countries in crisis.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128314]Not a single one of those glorifies racism [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] And again, GTA is satirical. The whole point of that mission was to poke fun at American agencies who torture people needlessly[/QUOTE] you didn't say that it glorified racism, just that the characters were all racist caricatures

[QUOTE=itisjuly;45125099]These strip clubs serve no practical purpose for the game other than to objectify women and sexual commodities. They do not contribute to storytelling at all.[/QUOTE] what about when Trevor from GTA V takes over that one strip club.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45128329]Good job missing my point entirely. My point is, you can't blame a game for being racist/hateful/sexist/whatever when that's used by the game to improve the story and the message it conveys. If games were all about equality and representation of minorities then games would be boring as shit.[/quote] I whole-heartedly agree. Except that, in a lot of these games, you really wouldn't need a brothel or prostitutes around the city in order to create a world with the feel they already have. [quote]Also, you want a game that glorifies racism ? Skyrim. It's a fantasy, sure, but the entire Stormcloak movement (a movement the player is entirely free to agree with, follow and enforce) is the most racist fucking thing ever, and if you choose to follow them, all of their actions are glorified (because they appear good to the eyes of the player character, since he willingly decided to follow the cause). It's also very obviously inspired from nationalistic movement in real life that plague and have plagued many countries in crisis.[/QUOTE] If you really think Skyrim glorified racism then you missed the point entirely. It shows both sides of the dispute, and when you join one of them, you've already been shown what their "pros and cons" are. [editline]17th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45128334]you didn't say that it glorified racism, just that the characters were all racist caricatures[/QUOTE] i did tho

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128303]But if it wasn't criticizing anything other than black people (and if it wasn't a satirical game, either), you agree that it would be incredibly fucked up?[/QUOTE] Sure. My subjective tastes would be offended by that. Are you asking me though, if I would demand that game be censored due to offending me? Because no, I wouldn't want that and I think that interferes with anyones artistic integrity no matter how I personally feel about it. The market will reflect it's terribleness if it's terrible, and so will the community. I just don't feel it's right to preside over what is, and isn't offensive with the full knowledge that it's a subjective thing and that I can't really objectively say my tastes are better than anyone elses and what I'm offended by is just what I'm offended by, I don't think it would be okay to censor games to what I am and am not offended by, nor anyone else. If it has a truly terrible negative moral message, then several things in my opinion are important to think about. Firstly, I think that it is in the hands of the viewer, player, etc, to make up their own mind about what the content is about, and what it isn't about, and what they personally think about it. Secondly, it is a video game, a form of entertainment with separate rules from our own reality and hopefully, any sane person would be able to sit through any video game atrocity and be able to keep in mind that "this is not real, these are not real people, this is a video game".

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45128603]Sure. My subjective tastes would be offended by that. [/QUOTE] racism isn't about taste though. you can portray a race as objectively inferior, and, imo, it wouldn't be wrong to censor that under the banner of hate speech

So any and all stereotypes are gone? Wow, that'd be terrible. Seriously.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45128835]So any and all stereotypes are gone? [/QUOTE] where'd you get THAT from

Saw this earlier today. Anita continues to be a #1 idiot, big surprise. There's a few problems and it's plain to see but ah fuck it the first page already covered most of it. Cherry picking stupid bullshit to create artificial drama.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45128842]where'd you get THAT from[/QUOTE] Because you said racism isn't about subjective taste, stereotypes are expressions of racism or racist thought in either acceptable packages or controversial packages, but either way are based on sexist, racist, or some other type of thought process. If you cannot have any form of racism, how can you have any form of expression that uses these aspects in some regard? telling people what stories they can and can't write, or enjoy is terrible.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45128888]Because you said racism isn't about subjective taste, stereotypes are expressions of racism or racist thought in either acceptable packages or controversial packages, but either way are based on sexist, racist, or some other type of thought process. If you cannot have any form of racism, how can you have any form of expression that uses these aspects in some regard? telling people what stories they can and can't write, or enjoy is terrible.[/QUOTE] except i didn't say you couldn't have any form of racism