Hollandistan; government tells criticasters 'it's not that bad'; new Mosque with call for prayer
80 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Jordax;49193979]Kinda getting what you mean, especially with Utrecht as for my family's and my own experiences. I find it pretty weird myself that there is a noticeable amount of people of mostly Middle Eastern descent there that barely or can not speak Dutch at all. And the way the Dutch job market is at the moment, it practically puts them right at the bottom to actually ever get a job despite how hard they try otherwise. Especially since even native Dutchies have a hard time getting a job if they arn't that qualified, let alone Middle Eastern immigrants and their kids. I feel this is also due to their own descision to not integrate with the rest of the Netherlands. Most of them go to Islamic schools, which are pretty far behind other Dutch education in terms of quality and prospects. It doesn't help either that those Islamic schools had major corruption and fraud scandals over the last few years too. This also makes it way more difficult for those youths to get accepted for college, and even then, they might drop out of that early on due to their former schools not being up to par.
Furthermore, some of Utrecht's poorer neighborhoods have a significantly bigger amount of crime going on. (My late grandaunt living in one of those neighborhoods got robbed in her own apartment multiple times over the last few years.) There also seems to be a rift between the non-Islamic and Islamic citizens too. It's very far from being Molenbeek in Brussel, but still, given that a few dozen youths from Utrecht from primarily those neighborhoods went up and joined ISIS over the last few years should bring up a very valid source of concern. Radicalisation in those neighborhoods might be on the rise, and it should be concerning state security, be looked at what actually causes this. It is something that should be looked at and taken care of as soon as possible. Instead, the government has steadily ignored this for years, while it should be looked at soon so it doesn't escalate any further.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, and I purposely left the whole radicalization-problems out of this discussion.
I'm not against more migrants entering just because of 'omg-terrorism-fears' which the usual tactic of 'left-wing' people is. I noticed problems first hand.
I've been actively involved in helping immigrants from many countries integrate into Dutch society. Chinese, Polish, Bulgarian, Portugese for the last 7 years and even ended up in a relationship with a Bulgarian girl which I actively helped to gain the Dutch nationality.
Studies law, and is fully integrated. Her communist-born parents even both have jobs, speak decent Dutch and are fully integrated. I'm incredibly proud of them, especially since they did it in a period of only 10 years.
And the major difference that I've been noticing when dealing with people from an islamic-background is that their very strict religion is preventing them from succeeding to succesfully integrate. Even more worrying, they seem to even lack the intention or the willingness to integrate entirely.
In the last year, I've put in 650 hours in volunteer-work alone (I just checked in the Excelsheet that I keep for tax-purposes) and I just keep seeing these problems getting worse and worse.
The enourmous group of Syrian migrants/refugees coming in now, sharing the background with the problematic groups already in the Netherlands is only going to make this worse. Because there are more of them, they'll just cluster together more and more making getting motivated to effectively integrate even more impossible. Another problem is that they are now also bringing in the religious/ethnic and socialtensions of their homecountries into the Netherlands. I've personally witnessed many fights between christian Syrians, and muslim Syrians, or fights between Iraquees and Syrians in the refugeecamps we have here in Nijmegen. (Heumensoord)
To aggrevate this... the Dutch government is of the belief that things will work itself out if they just keep giving in, and if they just keep acommodating their needs. "They'll bond with us, by showing them we are tolerant". This isn't how it works with this particular group.
We need to be a lot more strict, to prevent a burden on the native Dutch people who are paying the taxes... and to also insure that these people will have any hope of living a fullfilling life here.
[QUOTE=Keyblockor1;49193952]It's also kind of awkward when you complain about his values that he upholds, which I find is rather more egalitarian than the people whom he's complaining about..
[/QUOTE]
You got me there, I'll have to admit.
But he has to understand, this stuff takes time.
And I'm not talking about years, but generations.. "our" world is simply put vastly different to theirs.
My grandparents still look at me wrong when I introduce them to a Dutch girl I meet and they're Hindus from Surinam.
If he really is so closely involved with our communities he should at least be able to understand shit that.
I strongly believe Islam and [I]some[/I] of the accompanying values have a place in Europe like any other practised religion but straight up denying a crucial part of their daily routine is cruel and will only fuel more separation.
Their religion is what fills some of their sense of identity, it would be a very Dutch thing to let them keep a little bit of that.
[t]http://img.rtvoost.nl/T3/206152.jpg[/t]
This will be it right? I'm no expert in architecture but this is pretty much the most modern and progressive looking mosque I've seen in a while. (Bike racks in the front gives this one bonuspoints)
By the way, about the unemployment; I really feel like most of the Muslim youth have some sort of inferiority complex.
Talking about the kids in my street and the young men I personally work with today.
Part of it is in their heads, but it comes from our society as well.
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49194046]You got me there, I'll have to admit.
But he has to understand, this stuff takes time.
And I'm not talking about years, but generations.. "our" world is simply put vastly different to theirs.
If he really is so closely involved with our communities he should at least be able to understand that.
I strongly believe Islam and [I]some[/I] of the accompanying values have a place in Europe like any other practised religion but straight up denying a crucial part of their daily routine is cruel and will only fuel more separation.
Their religion is what fills some of their sense of identity, it would be a very Dutch thing to let them keep a little bit of that.
[t]http://img.rtvoost.nl/T3/206152.jpg[/t]
This will be it right? I'm no expert in architecture but this is pretty much the most modern and progressive looking mosque I've seen in a while.[/QUOTE]
Love how it takes someone else to actually make you acknowledge how unfair you were, but ok then.
First of all, nobody is expecting it to take just years. The Dutch have an incredibly massive amount of experience with integration of other cultured-foreigners.
Are you seriously suggesting that you think the problems that I've been extensively describing here with Maroccans, and other islamic-cultured people in the Netherlands have only existed for years? We've been welcoming people with islamic-cultures since 1960.
We know it takes time, and we're not subjecting muslims to any unfair expectations of integration. It's just that muslims seem to have way MORE trouble than other immigrants to integrate here. In fact.. it seems to have stagnated completely in the disfunctional state it's now in.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but we have 2nd and 3rd generation Turks and Muslims here barely speaking Dutch, and still completely 100% dug into their own culture, leading to massive inacceptance in society. They're totally non-viable for a functional role here in the Netherlands.
And now don't try to make it seems like all Dutch people are racist jerks, because many groups of immigrants have succesfully integrated into Dutch society and are wholly accepted.
The Netherlands currently houses many religions, and supplies many houses of worship (including buddhist, islamic, christian and others) even though the native Dutch are incredibly secular. We are truly a tolerant and liberal people.
So I'm sorry, you also don't get to pretend that we aren't allowing our immigrants to 'just keep a little bit' of their religion. We're building mosques, islamic schools and other islamic-catered fascilities left and right here...
You are correct, that is the design of the building. However, I hope you realize this discussion goes a bit deeper than architectural problems right?
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49194046]You got me there, I'll have to admit.
But he has to understand, this stuff takes time.
And I'm not talking about years, but generations.. "our" world is simply put vastly different to theirs.
My grandparents still look at me wrong when I introduce them to a Dutch girl I meet and they're Hindus from Surinam.
If he really is so closely involved with our communities he should at least be able to understand shit that.
I strongly believe Islam and [I]some[/I] of the accompanying values have a place in Europe like any other practised religion but straight up denying a crucial part of their daily routine is cruel and will only fuel more separation.
Their religion is what fills some of their sense of identity, it would be a very Dutch thing to let them keep a little bit of that.
[t]http://img.rtvoost.nl/T3/206152.jpg[/t]
This will be it right? I'm no expert in architecture but this is pretty much the most modern and progressive looking mosque I've seen in a while.
By the way, about the unemployment; I really feel like most of the Muslim youth have some sort of inferiority complex.
Talking about the kids in my street and the young men I personally work with today.
Part of it is in their heads, but it comes from our society as well.[/QUOTE]
I think, through looking at some documentaries and statistics (although I won't be able to source them as I didn't have the foresight of noting them down as they'd be needed.) I found that the reason why a lot of the Muslim population, and Muslim youth, is largely disenfranchised is how they largely work in their own parallel societies. I feel that most of the Muslim women who don't work and feel that it's their place to be at home will largely leave out a necessity of the western world: Another paycheck; The idea of working together as the Western world is now founded on two people working than simply one.
With that there's a recursive loop in the Islamic schools, as the Imams who teach there and preach in the mosques (Who are largely funded by the Saudi family) will end up preaching things that are not only backward, but also attempt to goad the pupils into prizing the Islamic society first and the society that they live in as second.
If the Government really wishes to integrate these folks they actually need a larger hand in support, but not necessarily something in simply acquiescing and giving them what they ask/demand for. They need to be propped up, and the only way they can be propped up is removing the Wahabbist influence from the Saudi's and promoting progressive Muslims to be figureheads of their community which also should be the teachers and preachers of the Mosques.
[QUOTE=Keyblockor1;49194097]I think, through looking at some documentaries and statistics (although I won't be able to source them as I didn't have the foresight of noting them down as they'd be needed.) I found that the reason why a lot of the Muslim population, and Muslim youth, is largely disenfranchised is how they largely work in their own parallel societies. I feel that most of the Muslim women who don't work and feel that it's their place to be at home will largely leave out a necessity of the western world: Another paycheck; The idea of working together as the Western world is now founded on two people working than simply one.
With that there's a recursive loop in the Islamic schools, as the Imams who teach there and preach in the mosques (Who are largely funded by the Saudi family) will end up preaching things that are not only backward, but also attempt to goad the pupils into prizing the Islamic society first and the society that they live in as second.
If the Government really wishes to integrate these folks they actually need a larger hand in support, but not necessarily something in simply acquiescing and giving them what they ask/demand for. They need to be propped up, and the only way they can be propped up is removing the Wahabbist influence from the Saudi's and promoting progressive Muslims to be figureheads of their community which also should be the teachers and preachers of the Mosques.[/QUOTE]
Again, I fully agree. Break the cycle of allowing them to hold a anti-immigration stance, and remove any obstacles they are currently burdening themselves with even if they think it's what's comforting them now.
This means, less mosques, stricter requirements to qualify for welfare, no more islamic-schools.
End the segregation. We've been trying to improve the existing problems with a soft-velvet glove for the last 55 years, and not one politican has had the balls to try and change this policy in fear of being called racist. Especially since they themselves enforced the political culture where anyone with criticism would immediately be labeled a racist or xenophobe themselves. It clearly is not working, and we should now implement more forceful measures for the good of the native Dutch people and the immigrants alike.
This message should be incredibly clear and translucent for people wanting to enter the country, like the Syrian-refugees at the moment.
[quote]"You are welcome, but we expect a few things from you
*List here*
If you do not wish to abide by these expectations, then we strongly encourage you to rethink the Netherlands as your next home since repercussive action will be taken against people who do not. The measures taken include, but are not limited to, expulsion from the country. Not because we hate you, but because we are proud of the liberal and economically viable place the Netherlands is, and we want it to stay that way"[/quote]
It's not racist or xenophobic, to demand that immigrants adapt to our culture and standards. Nobody is saying that immigrants shouldn't be allowed their own culture anymore, or that they should assimilate totally.
But if you think it's necessairy you refuse to shake hands with a woman because of your religion and still chose a secular Western country as your next home, then it is apparant that you did not come here because you felt a connection with our values, country and culture and then you are not welcome here.
Also for the good of true moderate muslims who left their own countries to get away from religious burdens.
[editline]27th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;49194108]You know if they do this they should just play a translated version after it, I sort of feel left out.
Like the mosque I drive past regularly has [del]subtitles[/del] its name on Arabic on the side and then a dutch translation under it.[/QUOTE]
Sure that is better, but still not solving any issues.
The objection isn't that we cannot read arabic signs that they're putting up.
The problem is that there still need to be arabic signs since even 2nd and 3rd generation muslims haven't reached the level of integration necesiary to go without them...
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49194139]
This message should be incredibly clear and translucent for people wanting to enter the country, like the Syrian-refugees at the moment.
"You are welcome, but we expect a few things from you
*List here*
If you do not wish to abide by these expectations, then we strongly encourage you to rethink the Netherlands as your next home since repercussive action will be taken against people who do not. The measures taken include, but are not limited to, expulsion from the country. Not because we hate you, but because we are proud of the liberal and economically viable place the Netherlands is, and we want it to stay that way"
[/QUOTE]
Don't the Swedish do this already? Learn the language in 3 months or you've had your shot.
Something like that?
The thing with the older generations is, they can barely write in their own language (kinda like my own Dutch grandparents and their parents) is it really feasible to expect them to learn ours? You have to consider the different form of education that they where used to as well.
Heck some of the Lithuanians and Polish I know find our language incredibly confusing.
(By the way I never said all Dutch people where racist, if anything I personally think most "racists" are just really confused and scared)
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49194175]Don't the Swedish do this already? Learn the language in 3 months or you've had your shot.
Something like that?
The thing with the older generations is, they can barely write in their own language (kinda like my own Dutch grandparents and their parents) is it really feasible to expect them to learn ours? You have to consider the different form of education that they where used to as well.
Heck some of the Lithuanians and Polish I know find our language incredibly confusing.
(By the way I never said all Dutch people where racist)[/QUOTE]
I'm not suggesting that we implement a "you have 3 months or you're outta here"-policy.
What I am saying is that before you can get a full Dutch-passport, you need to qualify for a language-test. Until that time, you simply do not get full citizenship.
I would also like to implement a system where, if you haven't at least worked for a few years as an immigrant, that you aren't elligable for welfare systems.
And I understand that some of these people are illiterate in their own country yes, but how does that mean that therefor they should be allowed into the Netherlands where they will be a garuanteed burden on the Dutch taxpayer.
We are not some sort of philantropist shelter for the weak and feable in the world. It is totally unfair to expect the Dutch to pay for everything out of their own pocket, just because 'we have it good'.
The Dutch have it good, because we ourselves, and our ancestors worked their ass off to get a good infrastructure, schoolingsystem and welfaresystem going. The fact that we are openly sharing our gains with people from around the world alone is worthy of praise, and something I am quite proud of. However, to be made look like a racist when I appoint problems where some groups are disproportionately being a burden on this fantastic system, and are actually actively abusing the system is something that I'm not that fond or proud of.
The Dutch government has made incredible funding cutbacks on schooling, healthcare, social-housing, welfare for the elderly and some other fundamental expenditures that made the Netherlands the Netherlands. They told us this was all unavoidable and completely necesairy.
I can't blame the Dutch people for feeling betrayed, when 6 months later, the government suddenly has money to build 3.500 homes for Syrian refugees even though native Dutch [b]taxpayers[/b] are on waitinglists that last [b]12-years[/b]. Can you?
On top of this, native Dutch people paying taxes up the ass (if you excuse my French, since we're paying over 65%+ effective income tax) are not only experiencing less social welfare because of this group that is a clear and statistically-provable burden on our expendable income.
We are then also expected to still be lenient and to allow them to build mosques that have calls-of-prayer, a symptom of non-integration, broadcasting into our secular homes. Let me get this clear; I'm not saying immigrants hurrduurr burden on society get rid of them hurrduur.
I'm saying, that in this particular case, it is true that for instance Maroccans and Syrians are factually a burden, and disproportionately so. This doesn't mean I hate Maroccans or Syrians, but it does mean that I think we should take effective action.
For the good of both the Maroccans and Syrians themselves, AND the Dutch taxpayers.
[url=https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fartikel%2F2071191-kabinet-laat-3500-woningen-bouwen-voor-vluchtelingen.html&edit-text=]Source[/url]
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49194208]
I can't blame the Dutch people for feeling betrayed, when 6 months later, the government suddenly has money to build 3.500 homes for Syrian refugees even though native Dutch [B]taxpayers[/B] are on waitinglists that last [B]12-years[/B]. Can you?
[/QUOTE]
No I really can't to be honest.
But you do realise that by denying them simple small things like a call to prayer you are already adding drops to a bucket that's almost full right? And that bucket also contains the frustration of integrated Muslims just to be clear.
I like how this thread developed if you look back at your first post and before you edited it.
And sorry, explain to me how a call to prayer is a sympton of non-integration?
Because it doesn't fit the noise profile of a city?
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49194249]No I really can't to be honest.
But you do realise that by denying them simple small things like a call to prayer you are already adding drops to a bucket that's almost full right? And that bucket also contains the frustration of integrated Muslims just to be clear.
I like how this thread developed if you look back at your first post and before you edited it.
And sorry, explain to me how a call to prayer is a sympton of non-integration?
Because it doesn't fit the noise profile of a city?[/QUOTE]
Just to be clear; me personally, and not most Dutch people either, aren't denying muslims the right to prayer. We simply don't care. You have to freedom to do whatever you like AS LONG AS YOU CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY.
However, for a native Dutch person it feels more and more like their own culture has to give way to that of the minority immigrants and this causes friction and resistance with the Dutch willingness to accept things.
[b]I'll simplify the sentiment here;[/b]
- 'We' are forced to pay for all of their needs, and they contribute nothing
- 'We' are forced to accept the call-to-prayer in 'our' country, that nobody wants, except for the previously mentioned non-contributing group. I don't want to be confronted with a religion that isn't mine in such an intrusive way.
- 'We' are expected to accept that Maroccan-migrants/descendants are 5,8 times more criminal than our own youths. My bike/car got stolen / my * got beaten up / my *'s house got burgled, again all by Maroccans"
- 'We' are supposed to give up ZwartePiet, a part of our culture that has never been racist, because a small minority now has problems with it.
- My grandmother, who worked all her life, and payed taxes all her life, now has to hear that there is no more money to pay for her elderly care and has to literally wear diapers, yet there IS money to build 3.500 houses for 'that non-contributing group' and pay for their wellfare-checks.
People are getting REALLY fed up with this, and they are starting to feel more and more betrayed by the government. They get none of the benefits that their hard-earned tax-money is paying for!
I'm foreseeing massive problems with this. Tensions that are already present will only be aggrevated, and they WILL escalate. This is something that I want to prevent at all costs.
I want everyone here to be able to live peacefully, and to enjoy the benefits that our welfare society offers but at the moment we are hard on our way to fuck up the basics which will surely have long-term effects.
It's absolutely not that the Dutch are racist, but we now ARE getting presented with the effects that our incredible openness has had, and it's mainly the Dutch natives that are footed with the bill.
Meanwhile we have to give up more and more of our culture, and make room for a new culture who's people are totally unwilling to give up any part of theirs.
It's incredibly insulting to hear of a muslim who refuses to shake hands with a woman, especially if he's also welfare dependant.
I'm trying my best to actively intervene on both sides. That's why I took up my volunteerwork as a "neighbourhood-father" and at the refugeecenters now.
On the other hand, I'm also actively having this same discussion with native Dutch people who are developing racist tensions, and I am diverting their frustration in the direction of constructive criticism which I've been trying to do here as well.
It's actually a full time job lol. Not something I do for fun, but I feel like it's absolutely neccesairy to maintain rest in my country on the long-term.
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49194249]No I really can't to be honest.
But you do realise that by denying them simple small things like a call to prayer you are already adding drops to a bucket that's almost full right? And that bucket also contains the frustration of integrated Muslims just to be clear.
I like how this thread developed if you look back at your first post and before you edited it.
And sorry, explain to me how a call to prayer is a sympton of non-integration?
Because it doesn't fit the noise profile of a city?[/QUOTE]
It could be mandated to go only for a certain period of time instead of elapsing into a long period otherwise it would be noise pollution for those who aren't Muslims.
To get the facts it's simply a wikipedia away:
A Minaret calls 5 times a day, A Church Bell does it three times.
Although one is by voice and the other is by an instrument, there's also been places where they turn to Loudspeakers which expand their calling that could be hear as far as 5 Km away.
The bell will toll respectively at 6:00 AM, 12:00 PM and 6:00 AM.
The Minaret will call at it's earliest at 4:00 AM. I do not necessarily know what other times it calls for, perhaps it calls for in 4 hour intervals which will put it at 4:00 AM, 8:00 AM, 12:00 PM, 4:00 PM, 8:00 PM.
They're both noise pollution when favouring their selected flock over the majority of the community-- Which is a shame, for both sides. However I do find it possible that a Minaret can end up having more of an effect if allowed to call for prayer to the general population, especially those who do not follow the Muslim faith; Largely because although a Church Bell is uniform, my uneducated opinion is that the loudspeaker of a Minaret (Or the call of prayer) can change dependent upon how the Imam is feeling.
[QUOTE=Keyblockor1;49194332]It could be mandated to go only for a certain period of time instead of elapsing into a long period otherwise it would be noise pollution for those who aren't Muslims.
To get the facts it's simply a wikipedia away:
A Minaret calls 5 times a day, A Church Bell does it three times.
Although one is by voice and the other is by an instrument, there's also been places where they turn to Loudspeakers which expand their calling that could be hear as far as 5 Km away.
The bell will toll respectively at 6:00 AM, 12:00 PM and 6:00 AM.
The Minaret will call at it's earliest at 4:00 AM. I do not necessarily know what other times it calls for, perhaps it calls for in 4 hour intervals which will put it at 4:00 AM, 8:00 AM, 12:00 PM, 4:00 PM, 8:00 PM.
They're both noise pollution when favouring their selected flock over the majority of the community-- Which is a shame, for both sides. However I do find it possible that a Minaret can end up having more of an effect if allowed to call for prayer to the general population, especially those who do not follow the Muslim faith; Largely because although a Church Bell is uniform, my uneducated opinion is that the loudspeaker of a Minaret (Or the call of prayer) can change dependent upon how the Imam is feeling.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, and I don't think we should forget about the fact that a churchbell is something that is inherantly-linked to peoples own culture, even if they aren't a practicing Christian themselves.
I've been an atheist, since whenever I achieved the conscience needed to have such a realisation. However, I have been in churches many times with completely secular experiences.
Marriage? You just do that in a church since that's what you're supposed to do.
Dutch people even baptize their children, completely without the religious meaning. It's just 'because what you do to young children'. It's a celebration that goes along with a newborn.
A minaret, blaring in an incomprehensible language, in such a way that you can hear it in the privacy of your secular home to accomodate a small minority that has a really poor reputation for non-integration is sure to bring up some objections.
[b]Edit;//[/b]
Btw; Im going to bed. It's fucking 02:30am and I have to be at my office before 08:30am for a meeting with a cliënt.
Thanks for changing your tone Arthuro. I love having this discussion in a rational way like we're having now.
We don't have to agree persé but at least pay me the respects of taking the time of hearing my argument, like you're doing now.
I'll set up the introduction differently next time. I'll read more tomorrow.
Guess I'm a bit used to the crazy Wilders sect people on the internet parading their Anti-whatever movement, hence the initial attitude.
I'm with you on the shut-eye, 6 hours of sleep for a 12 hour shift :/
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49194575]Guess I'm a bit used to the crazy Wilders sect people on the internet parading their Anti-whatever movement, hence the initial attitude.
I'm with you on the shut-eye, 6 hours of sleep for a 12 hour shift :/[/QUOTE]
Well I dislike them as much as you do, but I also recognize and acknowledge that the less-intelligent in society do not have the ability to form coherent arguements and statements about a topic that is so incredibly complex.
Look how long it took us to get to the meat of the discussion in this topic alone, and I don't exactly have the feeling we're all unintelligent in here.
Because people feel unheard, or even outright betrayed by their government I see people more and more starting to resort to the wrong form of expressing frustration. I'm not condoning this in any way, don't get me wrong, but I do UNDERSTAND why people are starting to develop the motivation to protest and how they're starting to generally dislike muslims.
We have to prevent this, by first of all making their problems heard and dealt with by the government.
Secondly, we have to prevent it by correcting them where they're wrong.
This debate needs to hit hard where it can help solve something. It shouldn't be gasoline on the flames of ethnic tension.
So what would you propose?
A Facebook event? A giant march? An angry letter to the Chamber?
I'd rally up with some mates..
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49196569]So what would you propose?
A Facebook event? A giant march? An angry letter to the Chamber?
I'd rally up with some mates..[/QUOTE]
I'd love it if I were able to organize people in this fashion, but I've tried already.
People have just completely lost faith in politicians currently. They feel like it won't have any impact, and many people are afraid of being labelled racist.
I'm not aware if you've seen the newsreports on protests that have already been held throughout the country, but the media focusses on the one idiot that is holding up a racist sign and try to portrey everyone as 'xenophobe racists' or 'extreme-right-wing' even though there majority of protesters are completely normal worried citizens.
Politicians are currently operating like they got a 4-year mandate to politically do whatever they want.
However, what they're supposed to be doing is represent the people who voted for them.
It's a horrible mess, and I'm not sure how to get out of it.
What do you propose? Do you have any idea's? Because I'm not lazy, and I'll gladly act if you have any good ideas.
Thought I was browsing GeenStijl for a second there.
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49196581]
What do you propose? Do you have any idea's? Because I'm not lazy, and I'll gladly act if you have any good ideas.[/QUOTE]
To be honest coming up with something is way out of my league.
But since you're asking; I believe new party would be great, something to overshadow the PVV which is heavily stigmatised by the "blonde gorilla" as one of my Afghan mates likes to call him.
This is the thing though, there has to be someone well known and respected for his/her reason to take the first step.. and like you've said it's a risky move to do.
It would also require the open and public support of foreigners as well, young and progressive foreigners that is.. but I fear it might almost be too late for that since more and more are turning inward it seems.
To put it short, a new voice of a culturally united Holland
What we obviously [I]don't[/I] need is a figure like Geert but we do need someone with his balls to speak out and catch attention properly.
[QUOTE=arthuro12;49196682]To be honest coming up with something is way out of my league.
But since you're asking; I believe new party would be great, something to overshadow the PVV which is heavily stigmatised by the "blonde gorilla" as one of my Afghan mates likes to call him.
This is the thing though, there has to be someone well known and respected for his/her reason to take the first step.. and like you've said it's a risky move to do.
It would also require the open and public support of foreigners as well, young and progressive foreigners that is.. but I fear it might almost be too late for that since more and more are turning inward it seems.
To put it short, a new voice of a culturally united Holland
What we obviously [I]don't[/I] need is a figure like Geert but we do need someone with his balls to speak out and catch attention properly.[/QUOTE]
Pim Fortuyn was that person. But he was also demonized up to the point where some left-wing idiot felt justified in shooting him.
I'll catch massive flak for saying this, since the demonisation was so effective that he is even seen as a massive racist internationally. But watch some of his interviews. His stances are exactly equal to mine.
I'll gladly provide you some links you can watch on Youtube to show you in both Dutch and subtitled English if anyone is interested. There's massive amounts of videos on Pim Fortuyn, so finding videos yourselves might be a bit hard.
I live like maybe a mile away or so from this, I wonder if i'll be able to hear it.
I wouldn't be surprised if this mosque is still being build no matter how many people are against it.
Thats just how our town works, fuck the people opinions they are all racist right?
[QUOTE=Danny1828;49196805]I live like maybe a mile away or so from this, I wonder if i'll be able to hear it.
I wouldn't be surprised if this mosque is still being build no matter how many people are against it.
Thats just how our town works, fuck the people opinions they are all racist right?[/QUOTE]
I live in a neighbourhood that verges on the richer side of the spectrum. Sorry for sounding like a pompous ass, but it's necesairy to indicate why I am asking this.
Because we're in a richer area, where even some politicians live... there's not a goddamn refugeecenter to be found anywhere. They seem to be keeping those away from richer area's.
However, if they WOULD attempt to build one here, or a mosque for that matter, there'd be massive protest and we'd seriously go to city hall to demand to speak to the mayor.
Why aren't you guys doing this Danny? Why aren't you people protesting, and making the news?
Force the left-biased news to talk about you by holding a massive Facebookprotest, or by peacefully demonstrating in front of town hall.
Make sure you leave any REAL racist assholes at home, because you know as well as I do that the media will only show them on the news and not the normal protestors.
Because our town council is very persistent in what its doing.
In case you don't know, but there has been protests against the asylum here in Enschede, after a petition that was held, that concluded that people in the area did not want the asylum.
[URL="http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/10/31/protest-tegen-azc-enschede-duur-feestje-van-de-democratie"]Protest tegen azc Enschede ‘duur feestje van de democratie’[/URL]
[URL="http://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/default.aspx?nid=228284"]Tegenstanders asielzoekerscentrum organiseren protestactie in Enschede[/URL]
And our town council ignoring what people want just results into extreme things like:
[URL="http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/11/25/terrein-naast-azc-enschede-bezaaid-met-varkenskoppen"]Terrein naast azc Enschede bezaaid met varkenskoppen[/URL]
[QUOTE=Danny1828;49196864]Because our town council is very persistent in what its doing.
In case you don't know, but there has been protests against the asylum here in Enschede, after a petition that was held, that concluded that people in the area did not want the asylum.
[URL="http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/10/31/protest-tegen-azc-enschede-duur-feestje-van-de-democratie"]Protest tegen azc Enschede ‘duur feestje van de democratie’[/URL]
[URL="http://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/default.aspx?nid=228284"]Tegenstanders asielzoekerscentrum organiseren protestactie in Enschede[/URL]
And our town council ignoring what people want just results into extreme things like:
[URL="http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/11/25/terrein-naast-azc-enschede-bezaaid-met-varkenskoppen"]Terrein naast azc Enschede bezaaid met varkenskoppen[/URL][/QUOTE]
Ah thanks for answering my question.
It's truly incredible how undemocratic the Netherlands have become...
I am seriously starting to feel like we need to have a reform of the system.
Politicians do whatever they want, if they are put in power by democratic votes and only pretend to be interested in what the people have to say when it's election-time.
They seem to not care, or not realize that they are supposed to be representatives of the people.
They should act on what the people want, not do what they want and then try to convince the people of what they're doing.
That's the wrong way around.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49193634]Who. Gives. A. Fuck.
Does your town have Church bells? Does it rustle your jimmies when those ring?[/QUOTE]
To be perfectly honest I think there's a difference between the chiming of an "instrument" and questionable singing on a loudspeaker. I wouldn't want the local catholic priests mass dog howls on speakers either.
I sure can't wait until the next Rumbler™ thread, worth the 10 year wait
[QUOTE=MisterSjeiks;49196984]I sure can't wait until the next Rumbler™ thread, worth the 10 year wait[/QUOTE]
Unfortionately the way things are now I'll probably have to make threads daily, and provide a non-racist yet still immigration-critical voice.
We can't have people like you believing that only people that are racist are opposed to immigration now can we.
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49196989]
We can't have people like you believing that only people that are racist are opposed to immigration now can we.[/QUOTE]
To be fair I don't think everyone who opposes immigration is racist, just you :v:
Just check how you managed to judge me based on a 15 word post on Facepunch
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49196989]Unfortionately the way things are now I'll probably have to make threads daily, and provide a non-racist yet still immigration-critical voice.
We can't have people like you believing that only people that are racist are opposed to immigration now can we.[/QUOTE]
Holyshit dude, are you really that committed to pushing an opinion? You're blaming people for assuming that all criticism of immigrants is racism, yet in your very next sentence you assume someone has a certain stance just because they might disagree with you?
[QUOTE=SuicideZ;49197006]Holyshit dude, are you really that committed to pushing an opinion? You're blaming people for assuming that all criticism of immigrants is racism, yet in your very next sentence you assume someone has a certain stance just because they might disagree with you?[/QUOTE]
incoming post about wet nipple fallacies and your inability to have a mature discussion
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49196989]Unfortionately the way things are now I'll probably have to make threads daily, and provide a non-racist yet still immigration-critical voice.
We can't have people like you believing that only people that are racist are opposed to immigration now can we.[/QUOTE]
Take your issue to the ones responsible for the situation if you're so committed to your cause.
Facepunch is pretty open on this topic, and there's already a lot of skepticism on the refugee situation. But spamming threads won't do much more than cause a bunch of shitstorms between users that disagree, and will probably get you banned in the long run.
If your really volunteering at a shelter then you are probably planning on burning the place down when the time is right.
You claim to be helping them and yet your shit posting about them since the Paris incident.
If you really are helping them then you should not be so fucking critical of them. Your just full of shit Rumbler.
If you want to keep preaching then make a single thread in the fast thread section. Stop spamming threads and telling us your hate for every single immigrant and then claim to be a volunteer at a shelter.
In my opinion, you should go back and hide in your tiny bunker and keep telling your self lies.
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