I personally find the original example in the OP to be very flawed, if I may go off on a tangent here. If the machine deconstructs your body at the atomic level, then yes, you are dead. However, if the teleporter sends those exact atoms to your selected destination and then reconstructs you at the atomic level, then you are technically alive again and there is no clone, right? You would only be dead and cloned if the device deconstructed you at the atomic level, created copies of every individual atom, and then sent the copies to your selected destination (which, honestly, I don't know why it would do that in the first place if it could just as easily send the original atoms to your destination and reconstruct you there).
But to be on topic, yes, I believe the original person is dead. The clone, no matter how exact to the original, is still technically a conscious being of its own. It is not you. It may have your memories, experiences, personality, appearance, and sense of identity, but it still technically isn't you.
[QUOTE=Lordgeorge16;45697637]But to be on topic, yes, I believe the original person is dead. The clone, no matter how exact to the original, is still technically a conscious being of its own. It is not you. It may have your memories, experiences, personality, appearance, and sense of identity, but it still technically isn't you.[/QUOTE]
Why not? You are applying your own subjective definition of identity to the problem, but how can we determine what the correct definition of identity is?
It seems likely to me that no objective definition of identity exists, in which case all that matters is that the teleportee subjectively believes that they are the same individual as the original.
[QUOTE=pac0master;45692871]If i remember right, Teleportation is about breaking down an object to the atomic level and moving all of it's atoms to a different location. ( Like if you where transformed into dust and blew away from the wind. but at the speed of light )
On a technical side, you have been killed and you are being remade. but is it you or a clone of yourself with all of your memories?
for a observer point, there isn't any difference. But for the test subject? ... I have no idea.[/QUOTE]
it's not a clone though. a clone is a copy, and teleportation does not copy you, it only moves your atoms to a different place, it doesn't use new atoms
You are dead.
The CLONE is alive, but YOU, the original, are DEAD.
Sorry.
[QUOTE=Ziks;45698165]Why not? You are applying your own subjective definition of identity to the problem, but how can we determine what the correct definition of identity is?
It seems likely to me that no objective definition of identity exists, in which case all that matters is that the teleportee subjectively believes that they are the same individual as the original.[/QUOTE]
What if the teleporter changed absolutely nothing, except that if the telportee ever meets spock, they will violently lash out. The person still thinks they are the same person, are they? They certainly are similar, but it seems to me that even such a minute change, if not brought on by the person themselves, causes a new person to be born. I believe that a person is defined by their will. Their will is what they would do given every possible circumstance. If you change the response to one of those circumstances, then you are changing the person by changing their will, and in effect even stopping them from freely expressing their original will.
What creates "will"?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45718582]What creates "will"?[/QUOTE]
For the most part, will is a dynamic thing which changes depending upon the information inputted into the system. The will is simply the function of the output. A will which treats many situations the same is a simple will. A baby has a simple will because although it is faced with a multitude of different experiences, the only real output it can give is flail cry and perhaps giggle. As a mind develops (atleast a mind within time) its will is affected not only by it's surroundings but also by its own will. One of the potential outputs is actually a changing of the will in a certain direction. Thought, reconsideration. What creates the will is ultimately the ebb and flow of the environment, including natural brain development, the input of other's wills upon your own, and that of random chance. Regardless of how a will came about, it is basically just a function produced by all parts of the information system. When these parts come together, whether they be programmed by experience or natural tendancies to liking something, they produce a dynamic description of the character called his will.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45718555]What if the teleporter changed absolutely nothing, except that if the telportee ever meets spock, they will violently lash out. The person still thinks they are the same person, are they? They certainly are similar, but it seems to me that even such a minute change, if not brought on by the person themselves, causes a new person to be born.[/QUOTE]
Do I become a new person when I learn a new piece of information? That too is an event that changes how I react to future stimuli.
So much like a computer then
[QUOTE=Ziks;45718763]Do I become a new person when I learn a new piece of information? That too is an event that changes how I react to future stimuli.[/QUOTE]
Yes you are a different person, but that too comes with degrees.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45718846]Yes you are a different person, but that too comes with degrees.[/QUOTE]
at what "degree" are you a new person?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45718846]Yes you are a different person, but that too comes with degrees.[/QUOTE]
Then how is that different to using a teleporter that slightly alters my neural network so that I become aggressive in the vicinity of Mr Spock?
The example of the teleporter slight change was to highlight the difference between agency brought on by yourself and agency brought on by accident or otherwise the agency of others. If you change yourself, you become less of a new person than if someone changes you by force (lobotomy, transporter accident etc.)
Here is a different scenario;
What if (Like in the episode of Star Trek: Voyager "Tuvix") two people go into a transporter, but only one comes out, with the experiences and tendancies of both? He still identifies as both.
I would argue this is a new person, not two people living in one since his will can only include one action per scenario, not both.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45718880]The example of the teleporter slight change was to highlight the difference between agency brought on by yourself and agency brought on by accident or otherwise the agency of others. If you change yourself, you become less of a new person than if someone changes you by force (lobotomy, transporter accident etc.)[/QUOTE]
Would me listening to new information on the radio count as externally forced changes to my psyche? I do not possess agency over the nature of that information, only that I continue to listen to it. Wouldn't this be identical to a scenario where I exert my agency to choose to be teleported?
[QUOTE]Here is a different scenario;
What if (Like in the episode of Star Trek: Voyager "Tuvix") two people go into a transporter, but only one comes out, with the experiences and tendancies of both? He still identifies as both.
I would argue this is a new person, not two people living in one since his will can only include one action per scenario, not both.[/QUOTE]
I think it would be entirely subjective as to whether this is a new person or a convergence of two people.
[QUOTE=Ziks;45719415]Would me listening to new information on the radio count as externally forced changes to my psyche? I do not possess agency over the nature of that information, only that I continue to listen to it. Wouldn't this be identical to a scenario where I exert my agency to choose to be teleported?
[/quote]
It would not. In the teleporter incident, the information, and the way which you adapt it is forced upon you. In the radio scenario the information is forced, but your interpretation is not, thus your person has not been violated, and you are more similar than if someone fed you the information and forced you to interpret it to attack spock.
[quote]
I think it would be entirely subjective as to whether this is a new person or a convergence of two people.[/QUOTE]
I believe that since the will of this person is so radically different, and is not brought on by the natural inclinations of either person, but rather an accident, it is a radically different person. For it to be the same person, tuvix's will would need to be identical, or a natural progression of one of their wills.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45719457]It would not. In the teleporter incident, the information, and the way which you adapt it is forced upon you. In the radio scenario the information is forced, but your interpretation is not, thus your person has not been violated, and you are more similar than if someone fed you the information and forced you to interpret it to attack spock.[/QUOTE]
Ah, I understand the distinction now according to your subjective definition of identity. However, as I don't consider "will" to be an objectively defined or metaphysically distinguishing attribute I think I'll persist with my own subjective definition of coherent memories.
[QUOTE]I believe that since the will of this person is so radically different, and is not brought on by the natural inclinations of either person, but rather an accident, it is a radically different person. For it to be the same person, tuvix's will would need to be identical, or a natural progression of one of their wills.[/QUOTE]
I see, so if a teleporter had a certainty of accurate replication you would be happy to subjectively say that identity is maintained?
[QUOTE=Ziks;45720142]Ah, I understand the distinction now according to your subjective definition of identity. However, as I don't consider "will" to be an objectively defined or metaphysically distinguishing attribute I think I'll persist with my own subjective definition of coherent memories.
I see, so if a teleporter had a certainty of accurate replication you would be happy to subjectively say that identity is maintained?[/QUOTE]
Yes. If you copy absolutely every single thing, and do not change any inclinations, then what else is there to carry over? Indeed, if you were to copy the person, and have 2 people, the second the copy found out it is the copy, it would start becoming a different person. The reason behind this is because identity is used to distinguish between two objects that share a temporal location. Without a second object, there is no reason to draw a distinction, however once the object exists twice, the differences, however minute or technical, are to be played upon in order to distinguish them.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45720364]Yes. If you copy absolutely every single thing, and do not change any inclinations, then what else is there to carry over? Indeed, if you were to copy the person, and have 2 people, the second the copy found out it is the copy, it would start becoming a different person. The reason behind this is because identity is used to distinguish between two objects that share a temporal location. Without a second object, there is no reason to draw a distinction, however once the object exists twice, the differences, however minute or technical, are to be played upon in order to distinguish them.[/QUOTE]
how does the soul/extant conciousness function in this process?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45720397]how does the soul/extant conciousness function in this process?[/QUOTE]
I don't think he mentioned the existence of a soul, it's just the mechanics of his subjective definition of identity.
I think your position seems pretty sound Zenreon117.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45720397]how does the soul/extant conciousness function in this process?[/QUOTE]
The original meaning of soul is just breath of life. So in this case both things have a soul, since they are alive. As for extant consciousness, if you reassemble the flesh perfectly, the soul will follow and thus so too will the consciousness. The consciousness depends on what information the flesh contains.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45698636]it's not a clone though. a clone is a copy, and teleportation does not copy you, it only moves your atoms to a different place, it doesn't use new atoms[/QUOTE]
I see teleportation as a cut&paste.
a way to ctrl+x then ctrl+v somewhere else.
To teleport you, you need all the information that constitute your body and a machine capable to recreate you after you are being destroyed.
Atoms are informations, technically, if you can recreate someone to the atomic level just with a blueprint. It might be possible to clone that person too.
What if you are near death, they remove your brain and put it in the clone, would you still be living?
[QUOTE=pac0master;45726227]I see teleportation as a cut&paste.
a way to ctrl+x then ctrl+v somewhere else.
To teleport you, you need all the information that constitute your body and a machine capable to recreate you after you are being destroyed.
Atoms are informations, technically, if you can recreate someone to the atomic level just with a blueprint. It might be possible to clone that person too.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that if you're destroying the person you're teleporting, then you're not teleporting. The very definition of teleportation is "the transfer of matter from one place to another". If you're not using the same matter you started out with, you're not teleporting
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45728149]The thing is that if you're destroying the person you're teleporting, then you're not teleporting. The very definition of teleportation is "the transfer of matter from one place to another". If you're not using the same matter you started out with, you're not teleporting[/QUOTE]
actually the definition of teleportation is :A hypothetical mode of instantaneous transportation; matter is [U]dematerialized at one place and recreated at another
[/U]you dont have to push atoms x distance at lightspeed for it to be teleportation, you can just reconstruct the information at whatever distance. also atoms of the same element are indistinct from each other, so you don't have to use the same matter you started with, destroying person A and recreating person A some distance away is identical to pushing person A that distance.
[QUOTE=noh_mercy;45728908]actually the definition of teleportation is :A hypothetical mode of instantaneous transportation; matter is [U]dematerialized at one place and recreated at another
[/U]you dont have to push atoms x distance at lightspeed for it to be teleportation, you can just reconstruct the information at whatever distance. also atoms of the same element are indistinct from each other, so you don't have to use the same matter you started with, destroying person A and recreating person A some distance away is identical to pushing person A that distance.[/QUOTE]
wouldn't that be a lot worse? you'd need all the materials that make up a person at your destination
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45729256]wouldn't that be a lot worse? you'd need all the materials that make up a person at your destination[/QUOTE]
At least we have access to all the materials that make a person. We dont have access to anything that allows lightspeed travel. I think its more likely that we will have human printing machines before we have lightspeed devices, thats just my opinion. What would you do instead?
Its just a twin with the same memories. Thats it!
[QUOTE=noh_mercy;45729510]At least we have access to all the materials that make a person. We dont have access to anything that allows lightspeed travel. I think its more likely that we will have human printing machines before we have lightspeed devices, thats just my opinion. What would you do instead?[/QUOTE]
but that's essentially cloning, so in that case, yes, the person to go into the teleporter is not the same one that comes out
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45730090]but that's essentially cloning, so in that case, yes, the person to go into the teleporter is not the same one that comes out[/QUOTE]
whats different? Unless there is some part of a human that is outside of the physical world, they have to be the same thing.
[QUOTE=Mysterious Mr.E;45729814]Its just a twin with the same memories. Thats it![/QUOTE]
What makes your past self from an hour ago more than a twin with shared memories?
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