If you die but have an exact clone are you dead? - General

You are personally dead. But someone who looks and thinks exactly like you is still alive. But they're not you, you're dead.

[QUOTE=Fatman55;33915149]I don't think you read it right. Basically in one instant you were destroyed and an exact copy was created in a different location. So is it still you or somebody else?[/QUOTE] Whatever

[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;33917304]No the clone believes he is he, not you. The same way you believe you are you, not him. Which means you are different people, since you both think that of yourself.[/QUOTE] What are you even talking about? He thinks he is the same person as you. He thinks he grew up doing exactly what you did, slept with the same women, ate the same food. Even if his atoms never actually did any of the same things as yours, they're arranged in such a way that he has the same memories. If you kidnapped someone while they were asleep, cloned them in the way described in the OP without waking them, and put the clone back in the bed, he'd think nothing happened. He'd think he just went to sleep and woke up, with absolutely no idea that his whole mind was just created. [QUOTE=The DooD;33925246]You are personally dead. But someone who looks and thinks exactly like you is still alive. But they're not you, you're dead.[/QUOTE] What makes them not "you?" They have all the physical characteristics of "you" down to the last atom.

[QUOTE=zombini;33925111]I personally believe that consciousness is just a combination of life experiences and the perception of the world. Make someone deaf, blind, remove their nose, tongue and remove their ability to feel, and that is what it would be like to be dead. of course, if this occurred before the person had experienced the world in any way, then the person wouldn't be conscious. Death is just the permanent disabling of the brain's ability to sense anything. When a person dies, they most likely wouldn't know it. As for transferring consciousness? Might be possible if you could perfectly replicate the person being replicated. Memories, senses, even the quantum particles in the brain would have to be replicated in order for the consciousness to be transferred. In short, it's [B]not fucking possible[/B] to perfectly clone someone or to teleport them and expect it to be the same person.[/QUOTE] OK but that's not what we're debating. And as for the "he would experience different things" idea, no he would not. Lets just say for the purpose of this thread you were destroyed and exactly recreated at the same location in an instant. Is it still you or not? [sp]also yes I think I've changed my stance[/sp]

[QUOTE=Fatman55;33930656]Lets just say for the purpose of this thread you were destroyed and exactly recreated at the same location in an instant. Is it still you or not?[/QUOTE] Thoughts like that changed my opinion just like they've changed yours.

Yeah, it's really strange. As for being recreated in a different location I'm not even sure.

Oh god, I had this exact idea while watching Stargate.

[QUOTE=superstepa;33915607]Of course you die Even if you think the same way, it is still [B][I]you[/I][/B] who dies, and not your clone[/QUOTE] but [b]you[/b] are the clone, and vice versa. your clone is the same thing as you

[QUOTE=Eltro102;33934308]but [b]you[/b] are the clone, and vice versa. your clone is the same thing as you[/QUOTE] They are still two separate consciouses.

snip

Seriously? How about i clone you and then kill you, would you still be able to make this thread?

By definition of using "you" as in an absolute context, yes. You are will always be dead even if you have an exact replica made, and even if your though process carried over. The thing is, you (in an absolute context) has already died. Therefore, the specific entity that is you, is dead. If you have 2 cloned apples and you eat one, does that mean you did not eat the apple because an exact clone of it still exists? No, you ate the apple, and it's inside of you. It's just that there was 2 so you have to eat the other. It's the same with a human, once it dies, the image of you remains due to the clone, but the body itself (you) is dead. Or at least, that's my view on this.

You're dead. Clone or not. The clone could be the same but it's not you. Deal with it.

[QUOTE=genericbegger;33937927]Seriously? How about i clone you and then kill you, would you still be able to make this thread?[/QUOTE] Yes, since you cloned me it will have the exact same thoughts at the same time causing it to post this thread.

As I'm of the opinion that there isn't anything that is "you" other than a very specific chemical composition, I would say no. It's like with a computer; if you copy a string of binary code to another location and then delete the original file, I think we would all agree on that it is exactly the same file. There's no difference in the contents of it, and if it's program or what ever, it would run all the same. It's not different than that, in my opinion.

[QUOTE=paul simon;33872275][I]It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think. For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed.[/I][/QUOTE] In comparison with the idea of sinks. The idea is that if you drop colored water in a pattern, it is destroyed, but not gone. But people thought that when something was destroyed, it was just gone. [editline]29th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Venezuelan;33872707]If you die but have an identical twin are you dead?[/QUOTE] Yes, even having a twin still considers yourself dead. [editline]29th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Supacasey;33873012]If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?[/QUOTE] No

Depends. If your consciousness was copied over from the time of your death and transfered into said new clone body, or robot or whatever else. You as the individual would continue to exist. Now the question is would you remain the same. If transfered into a robot, your individuality would certainly change as there's a lack of chemicals and hormones that drive us. If it was transfered into a clone, you should more or less remain the same though. Now if instead this clone with same consciousness would be made prior to your death, it would not be the exact you as it would have a different set of experiences. Either lacking those that led to your death, or having been activated earlier a completely unique ones. Obviously such a clone would be able to pass off as you, would believe itself to be you and would be virtually indistinguishable from you. But it would not be you.

[QUOTE=Supacasey;33873012]IMO: You're dead. If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?[/QUOTE] That's a bad comparison, really, since you're destroying the environment around the subjekt, and not just the subject. And the only reason you'd say that it was a different flash drive, would be because you would know that it was different. If someone smashed your flash drive, bought a new, identical, one and placed the same files on it, would you be able to tell the difference?

It can't be an exact clone if one experienced death and the other didn't. If this were the case, then yeah [I]you'd[/I] be dead. The teleportation stuff is much simpler though; of course it's you! Unless you were somehow corrupted in the transferring process. :v:

Even disregarding my personal beliefs, a clone is still not "you". "You" are defined by [I]your[/I] consciousness. Even a clone that is made at the same time of death of your body is not "you", it's just somebody else with your memories and DNA.

[QUOTE=tristanguy2;33937599]They are still two separate consciouses.[/QUOTE] what? I personally do not believe that there is a seperation between your consciousness and the rest of your brain. so if that individual is copied exactly down to the positioning of every joule of energy and exposed to the same enviroment then they are the same [editline]30th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Pal13;33950633]It can't be an exact clone if one experienced death and the other didn't. If this were the case, then yeah [I]you'd[/I] be dead. The teleportation stuff is much simpler though; of course it's you! Unless you were somehow corrupted in the transferring process. :v:[/QUOTE] now that would be annoying, but also quite easy to fix imagine if we had file extentions for our bodies after we had uploaded our brains to the cloud

Considering this exact clone would be JUST like you, have the same DNA patterns and the same thoughts and memories, yes it would be you. EXACTLY you, it's the exact same being with NOTHING different, thus is the same being. People are different because of different cell DNA and such, if it's all the same, you're the same.

[QUOTE=Pal13;33950633]It can't be an exact clone if one experienced death and the other didn't. If this were the case, then yeah [I]you'd[/I] be dead. The teleportation stuff is much simpler though; of course it's you! Unless you were somehow corrupted in the transferring process. :v:[/QUOTE] Never said you experienced death, or teleported. You disappeared, you were rebuilt in the same place in an instant.

[QUOTE=Fatman55;33962481]Never said you experienced death, or teleported. You disappeared, you were rebuilt in the same place in an instant.[/QUOTE] Oh geez, I only responded to the title... but it says teleporting in your OP.

[QUOTE=The one that is;33960137]Considering this exact clone would be JUST like you, have the same DNA patterns and the same thoughts and memories, yes it would be you. EXACTLY you, it's the exact same being with NOTHING different, thus is the same being. People are different because of different cell DNA and such, if it's all the same, you're the same.[/QUOTE] Different body, different person. A [i]different[/i] body with your exact DNA and memories is not YOU. YOU are dead.

Technically,yes You are still two separate conscious beings,therefore if you can't take over the control of your clone after your death,you are dead...

[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;33963056]Different body, different person. A [i]different[/i] body with your exact DNA and memories is not YOU. YOU are dead.[/QUOTE] What makes you different from a being with the exact same atoms, dna structure, memories and other things that make us us. The OP stated it was EXACTLY the same, thus same atoms and everything, it's the same exact being just moved somewhere else. Exact implies everything being the same, so if there's nothing different at all, it's the same right? By the same atoms I mean, the exact very atoms from the previous being in case that confuses you any.

[QUOTE=The one that is;33974104]What makes you different from a being with the exact same atoms, dna structure, memories and other things that make us us. The OP stated it was EXACTLY the same, thus same atoms and everything, it's the same exact being just moved somewhere else. Exact implies everything being the same, so if there's nothing different at all, it's the same right? By the same atoms I mean, the exact very atoms from the previous being in case that confuses you any.[/QUOTE] Due to the way quantum physics works, it is impossible for anything to be EXACTLY alike unless they're entangled (which would require two separate things to entangle, and thus not the same object). Same energy/atoms doesn't matter.

To put it simply: If we had two people, Bob and an [I]exact[/I] clone of Bob, and we pricked a finger of the Bob clone with a needle, the original Bob will not feel this prick. If this is true, killing the original Bob (and thus destroying Bob's consciousness) would get rid of Bob entirely. yes, there's a [I]clone[/I] of Bob, and that clone will behave exactly as Bob did, but the consciousness of the original Bob would not have "transferred" so to speak. I suppose it boils down to the time the clone was made, as after that point, each being (clone and original) is open to different experiences, thus differing the clone from the original. If this were an instantaneous clone-death situation (such as teleporting) I could see the same thing happen, as pulling apart people tends to kill them, even if you put them back together. the problem is in the consciousness, which has yet to actually be discovered. Once/if our minds are able to be analysed, and later stored, we would then be able to achieve such things as teleportation, which would work ( as far as I can see) like this: 1. The consciousness of the subject to be teleported is extracted and stored. 2. The physical body of the subject is recorded at the state of consciousness separation, and then broken down at the subatomic level. 3. The body is reformed at the destination based on the initial analysis before physical breakdown. 4. The subject's consciousness is returned to the teleported body. Of course, this is now extremely theoretical for obvious reasons, and as such, that was all my limited brain capacity could imagine.

Even if you die and get cloned, i doupt that your "Spirit" will get into that cloned body.