[QUOTE=Eltro102;36861146]
you would be dead, but not to other people[/QUOTE]
that's just an impostor then
if anyone's interested, here's a 50 minute interview of a psychologist on individuality and our sense of self.
[url]http://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart/the-self-bruce-hood[/url]
one of the comments words what i said a bit better:
[quote]Ilia Jerebtsov at 18.08 17 days ago
If we're assuming that the mind is entirely contained in its physical container, then duplicating the physical container should duplicate the mind as well - this seems reasonable to me. But I don't think it makes sense to attribute the same identity to this new mind, because as soon as the new mind is exposed to its own sensory stream of reality, its experience will be entirely different, and so will be its reactions. The two minds will never be exactly identical, so you need to give the new mind a new identity to distinguish the two.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Eltro102;33876177]but if you were clone just before you were killed/died then [B]the clone[/B] would be [B]"you"[/B][/QUOTE]
No it wouldn't, you essentially state that in the sentence. The clone is a clone. You died. Perhaps to the perspective of other people the clone would be you, but it doesn't change the fact that you still died and are no longer conscious or alive.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;36865039]No it wouldn't, you essentially state that in the sentence. The clone is a clone. You died. Perhaps to the perspective of other people the clone would be you, but it doesn't change the fact that you still died and are no longer conscious or alive.[/QUOTE]
but what gives us our consciousness
if it's a physical reason then lets say exact cloning was possible with 100% replication, no growth period, you just split into another one of yourself(nothing is ever perfect, but let's say it was) then would it still be a different person
Yes. You have a well being yourself, and even if someone is the exact clone of you they're still different mentally. You, your personality, and what you have retained information wise is dead.
[QUOTE=The First 11'er;36867842]Yes. You have a well being yourself, and even if someone is the exact clone of you they're still different mentally. You, your personality, and what you have retained information wise is dead.[/QUOTE]
let me guess, you believe in souls.
your memories are stored in your brain. your personality is determined by the structure of your brain. there is no part of your person that is not determined by your physical structure.
A clone is pretty much the same as an identical twin, and twins are strange sometimes.
[QUOTE=Canary;36867966]A clone is pretty much the same as an identical twin, and twins are strange sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Uh, no it's not. The title says Exact Clone, which means it's exactly the same as you.
Identical Twins have differences in personality, they just usually look the same in terms of appearance. Sometimes even then they don't look the same.
[QUOTE=SoSicklyAwesome;36868018]Uh, no it's not. The title says Exact Clone, which means it's exactly the same as you.
Identical Twins have differences in personality, they just usually look the same in terms of appearance. Sometimes even then they don't look the same.[/QUOTE]
Then what's the difference from a clone?
A clone isn't magically going to be doing the exact same things and be exposed to the same environment as the original, Twins usually spend the part of their life close by so if anything twins would end up even more similar than a clone that would live away from it's original.
[QUOTE=Canary;36868147]Then what's the difference from a clone?
A clone isn't magically going to be doing the exact same things and be exposed to the same environment as the original, Twins usually spend the part of their life close by so if anything twins would end up even more similar than a clone that would live away from it's original.[/QUOTE]
Read the title.
[editline]21st July 2012[/editline]
Of the thread.
Teleporting an actual person is impossible, always will be unfortunately.
[QUOTE=JPsRcE;36868471]Teleporting an actual person is impossible, always will be unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
That's not the point of the thread.
Yes, because your personal stream of consciousness has ended.
Your clone, no matter how exact, will always percieve things slightly differently to yourself, so will always begin to diverge from your personality, but that's all but irrelevant. When you die, your personal stream of consciousness ends and you are dead. Your clone is not YOU.
[QUOTE=SoSicklyAwesome;36868193]Read the title.
[editline]21st July 2012[/editline]
Of the thread.[/QUOTE]
My point is that it's the same as if an identicle twin died, it's not the same person just because they are exactly the same.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;36865039]No it wouldn't, you essentially state that in the sentence. The clone is a clone. You died. Perhaps to the perspective of other people the clone would be you, but it doesn't change the fact that you still died [b]and are no longer conscious or alive.[/b][/QUOTE]
except in the form of a clone that is an exact you, that hasn't died yet.
Yes. You are dead, your clone isn't.
End of story. Just because there is an exact copy of you, doesn't make the original any more alive.
Take 2 pieces of identical white paper. If you rip up the copy, is the other one being unripped going to make the other any less ripped? No, it's still ripped. The other isn't.
EDIT: Your physical being on earth isn't diminished, there's still a copy of you. It just isn't you (provided the context is the original you, not you as in anything that is you or your clone).
[QUOTE=Canary;36868895]My point is that it's the same as if an identicle twin died, it's not the same person just because they are exactly the same.[/QUOTE]
That's bullshit, because Identical Twins have different personalities. They're not clones of each other, they're two different people. End of story.
Consciousness is inseparable from the brain. Think about it this way. After the clone is made, it has a separate consciousness from the original. By definition, since it can act, think, talk, and feel just like the original could, it has a consciousness.
At this point, clone divergence has already begun. Since the clone is in a separate physical position than the original, it's already accumulating separate, mutually exclusive experiences.
However, if the original dies, how exactly does it's consciousness come to 'join' the clone's? How can one brain have room for two consciousnesses? Do they jam into the same brain like sardines? How do two sets of mutually exclusive memories unify? Which consciousness gets control of the body?
So, clearly, if the brain dies, the consciousness dies right along with it. That's the only way that makes sense, and doesn't lead to a bunch of paradoxes.
Yes, the subconscious and conscious die with you, theres no way on hell or on earth that you'd have the eaxt same consciousness as before
so im right
-noooo
tl;dr of my thoughts: Even if you are cloned, you can't be EXACTLY the same. So if you'd die, you'd be dead and lose your consciousness forever. Your clone, on the other hand, would be alive but he'd be another person.
[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36881435]Consciousness is inseparable from the brain. Think about it this way. After the clone is made, it has a separate consciousness from the original. By definition, since it can act, think, talk, and feel just like the original could, it has a consciousness.
At this point, clone divergence has already begun. Since the clone is in a separate physical position than the original, it's already accumulating separate, mutually exclusive experiences.
However, if the original dies, how exactly does it's consciousness come to 'join' the clone's? How can one brain have room for two consciousnesses? Do they jam into the same brain like sardines? How do two sets of mutually exclusive memories unify? Which consciousness gets control of the body?
So, clearly, if the brain dies, the consciousness dies right along with it. That's the only way that makes sense, and doesn't lead to a bunch of paradoxes.[/QUOTE]
Why would it be in a separate position?
This is a magical clone-o-magic, which destroys your body instantly and replaces it with the same instantaneously.
[editline]24th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;36904853]Personally, If when I die, and exact copy of me with all my memories took my place, I wouldn't care.[/QUOTE]
Hit the nail on the head
[QUOTE=sonerin;36896026]tl;dr of my thoughts: Even if you are cloned, you can't be EXACTLY the same. So if you'd die, you'd be dead and lose your consciousness forever. Your clone, on the other hand, would be alive but he'd be another person.[/QUOTE]
Correct, except the clone would be the SAME exact person who died just a second ago.
Then the clone would live on and probably turn out a little different than the original, depending on a lot of things.
i think this thread comes down to whether you subscribe to science or spirituality. from a scientific standpoint, there is no such thing as a "soul" and our brain dictates our entire personality, meaning a clone would be the exact same person upon creation but its future experiences would be from a different viewpoint as soon as it was created, if both copies were to live on. if the clone was created immediately upon death it would, in every way, be the same person as there would be no divergence of memories.
I'd imagine it's sort of like if you made a copy of a computer program, and then deleted the original program. You still have a copy, which is virtually identical in every way to the original, but the original is still technically gone.
You could argue a lot of things like memories and experiences, but at that point it more comes down to how sophisticated the device is in cloning complex things like the brain and whatnot.
Memories and experiences are shared up until the moment the clone would be created. Then everything diverges.
This entire argument comes down to a single question- Is difference determined by properties or just simply by "being"?
Since all of the matter in one's body is composed of elementary particles, I think what we should ask is "are elementary particles different (because there are several of them) or are they all the same (because they all have exactly the same physical properties)?"
[QUOTE]But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration.
It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1.
I love thinking about this.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
I was thinking this same thing. If using a teleporter, would it be possible to also copy your consciousness? This would require the first copy to be destroyed, because one consciousness could not occupy two bodies. But if the first body is destroyed, then couldn't the consciousness still be transferred or copied into the second body? This topic is discussed greatly in Michael Crichton's novel Timeline.
When discussing the soul it can be harder to follow this logic. But as was discussed in earlier posts, the soul has not been scientifically proven or disproven. So who knows what the soul is actually capable of. is it possible that the soul could be governed by factors that are not yet explained by science? As is seen by many advancements in science, things that we take as scientific truths are later found to not entirely be accurate, or even disproven. The more we discover, the more questions arise.
[QUOTE=MrWhite;33989389]I love scrolling through this thread and seeing all the one-line half-baked responses littering the actually well thought-out statements.
I really like where Sherow was going with this idea. If our consciousness is caused by an exact mixture or structure of chemicals and stuffs in our brain, would it be such a stretch to theorize that, if that structure was created somewhere else, our consciousness would exist there?
Maybe our consciousness is the result of a physical manifestation or specific ingredients, like cheesecake. Cheesecake is a mixture of elements that, when put together in the exactly correct way, create cheesecake. There are a few variations that can be made to make [I]different[/I] cheesecake, but cheesecake only exists when a specific structure of ingredients exists in the right order. Perhaps, our consciousness follows this model, in that it exists when the right bits and pieces come together in a specific way. Nevertheless, controlling atoms has never been possible or predictable, due to our understanding of the way atoms act and react, so, even if the above was true, I still doubt that transportation will ever be possible unless we can accurately and precisely assemble atoms without disrupting other atoms.[/QUOTE]
This is an interesting analogy, but I am not really sure it holds water. The chemical makeup of our brains changes all the time. By this logic, every time the brain changes (drugs, alcohol, mental disease, sleep, even physical exertion or the release of endorphins) our consciousness would change. What I am getting at is our consciousness cannot be tied to the chemical makeup of our brain, or the structure of our brain because every time your brain is altered, your consciousness would have to be altered. So just replicating your exact current brain in a different location would not give you the same consciousness in that second location. If you get a brain tumor, your physical brain changes in structure. This can lead to many different variations in a persons mood, memory or the way they act. This does not mean this person has acquired a different consciousness. They may seem different to people around them, but they are still the same person. There has to be something besides physical structure and chemical makeup that determines a persons consciousness.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36870090]except in the form of a clone that is an exact you, that hasn't died yet.[/QUOTE]
So essentially when <You> Dies and <You1> Lives, your still dead because your not the same Consciousness, then again its a Clone of your Consciousness! Who knows!
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