[QUOTE=Cliff2;45610319]I have a further question on to the original
Say the clone is created as a result of someone killing the original. Was it still murder?
I mean "you" are still alive, so is there a murder victim?[/QUOTE]
Objectively it's undefined, but I would assume most current judicial systems would call it murder. If someone were to do that to me I wouldn't call it murder as long as the pre-cloning instance of me isn't left to consciously exist for some time in parallel with the cloned instance. It might be a bit inconvenient though.
[QUOTE=Ziks;45610442]Objectively it's undefined, but I would assume most current judicial systems would call it murder. If someone were to do that to me I wouldn't call it murder as long as the pre-cloning instance of me isn't left to consciously exist for some time in parallel with the cloned instance. It might be a bit inconvenient though.[/QUOTE]
Your honor, this claim of murder is ridiculous. The purported victim is in the courtroom at this very moment.
[QUOTE=Cliff2;45610586]Your honor, this claim of murder is ridiculous. The purported victim is in the courtroom at this very moment.[/QUOTE]
age old definitions of things change as our understanding grows.
being alive in one instance of yourself may not mean another one of you wasn't murdered.
Id call it a murder, a life was taken, be it an original life or a cloned version.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45610608]age old definitions of things change as our understanding grows.
being alive in one instance of yourself may not mean another one of you wasn't murdered.[/QUOTE]
Are they the same being or not? Were "you" murdered or not? If they are the same being, how can you claim they were killed if they're still alive? This is an exact clone is it not? Why should the original be considered separate unless they are?
[QUOTE=Cliff2;45610677]Are they the same being or not? Were "you" murdered or not? If they are the same being, how can you claim they were killed if they're still alive? This is an exact clone is it not? Why should the original be considered separate unless they are?[/QUOTE]
It's up to the individual to subjectively decide whether they are the same as before they were cloned, it's not objectively defined either way. If they consider themselves the same it isn't murder, otherwise it is.
In any case there's almost certainly a violation of bodily integrity.
[QUOTE=Cliff2;45610677]Are they the same being or not? Were "you" murdered or not? If they are the same being, how can you claim they were killed if they're still alive? This is an exact clone is it not? Why should the original be considered separate unless they are?[/QUOTE]
yes and no
they're the same but they're different instances of each other. same person, multiple instances. in that case, yes, you can be murdered and still be alive. If no one can tell the difference in who is who, then it's still murder if one of two instances of a person is killed.
I believe you could go to sleep and wake up in a different body, but if the body you are in is destroyed so are you.
[QUOTE=Ziks;45602127]If you care about continuity you die when you sleep.[/QUOTE]
i think that whole argument about continuity and sleep is kind of invalidated when you consider that there can be different levels of concousness, in such that when we go to sleep we really are going into a stand-by mode, something that locke wouldn't have really had any experience with since the idea of a stand-by is a much newer one
i think i mixed that up in my argument though,
continuity + mind uploading + destroying original = same person
no continuity + mind uploading + destroying original = seperate instance
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45610829]yes and no
they're the same but they're different instances of each other. same person, multiple instances. in that case, yes, you can be murdered and still be alive. If no one can tell the difference in who is who, then it's still murder if one of two instances of a person is killed.[/QUOTE]
Why?
Consider this from a purely mathematical stance
There is a set called "You" that contains you.
Let O1 be the original you.
Let C1 be the clone.
The set You contains {O1}
C1 is an exact clone of you. Or C1 = O1.
Before the original's death You contains {O1}
Remove O1 and add C1 to the You set.
After the original's death, You contains {C1}
But C1 = O1. The set You contains {O1}
What has changed?
[QUOTE=Cliff2;45611429]Why?
Consider this from a purely mathematical stance
There is a set called "You" that contains you.
Let O1 be the original you.
Let C1 be the clone.
The set You contains {O1}
C1 is an exact clone of you. Or C1 = O1.
Before the original's death You contains {O1}
Remove O1 and add C1 to the You set.
After the original's death, You contains {C1}
But C1 = O1. You contains {O1}
What has changed?[/QUOTE]
the data is the same, but the problem is you can't explain this in pure mathematics because your concousness cannot be equal to the exact copy's consousness because you are you and not connected to that separate instance of you
[QUOTE=Sableye;45611455]the data is the same, but the problem is you can't explain this in pure mathematics because your concousness cannot be equal to the exact copy's consousness because you are you and not connected to that separate instance of you[/QUOTE]
Then we conclude that you die?
[QUOTE=paul simon;33872275]It's as simple as this, really.
But now:
Teleporter scenario, person goes into teleporter, he is destroyed. He is now dead and everything is dark for him. (Let's pretend that's how being dead is)
His atoms are beamed to another location, where they are rebuilt to form a replica of the conciousness and body of the person that walked into the teleporter.
The replica will now be conciousness #2, as #1 is gone.
Conciousness #2 believes that it is conciousness #1, and nobody notices that conciousness #1 is gone.
So basically, for the person that goes in (Conciousness #1) he will see the teleporter start, then he will cease to exist.
The person that comes out (Conciousness #2) will be the same as #1, except he still exists and remembers everything before and after the teleportation.
It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think.
For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed.
But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration.
It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1.
I love thinking about this.[/QUOTE]
I never got that teleporter theory, because, like you said, you're not destroying anything, only moving atoms. You're not making an exact copy of yourself, you're disassembling and reassembling your own body and, maybe, your own consciousness
[QUOTE=Ziks;45607644]Which theory of identity?[/QUOTE]
Causal Regression.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45611665]Causal Regression.[/QUOTE]
Both individuals can equally be traced back to when the pre-cloning individual was born (or any moment pre-cloning for that matter), as they are both causally dependant on all events in that individual's history. Causal regression is therefore not a good choice if you are deliberately trying to distinguish between the "original" and the "copy".
I don't know if this is topic or not and I'm no expert either but didn't science proof that clones never gets it's creators mind and thinking and instead only gets the look of it's creator?
[QUOTE=Talts;45612885]I don't know if this is topic or not and I'm no expert either but didn't science proof that clones never gets it's creators mind and thinking and instead only gets the look of it's creator?[/QUOTE]
You might be thinking about biological clones, which only share the genome of the original individual. However we're discussing exact physical clones, using some hypothetical mechanism that duplicates someone's body perfectly down to the subatomic level.
Unless your consciousness and memories were somehow transferred over to the clone before you died, then no you're still dead because imo it's your memories that define you as a person.
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;45614978]Unless your consciousness and memories were somehow transferred over to the clone before you died, then no you're still dead because imo it's your memories that define you as a person.[/QUOTE]
Thats like saying, identical twins are the same person up until a point because they share the same memories. If a person has amnesia, does that make them an undefined person?
[QUOTE=Itolkweed;45615805]Thats like saying, identical twins are the same person up until a point because they share the same memories. If a person has amnesia, does that make them an undefined person?[/QUOTE]
Depends on whether or not it's complete amnesia, if it is then I'd have to say yes. Though to be honest I haven't really thought about it that thoroughly.
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;45614978]Unless your consciousness and memories were somehow transferred over to the clone before you died, then no you're still dead because imo it's your memories that define you as a person.[/QUOTE]
that doesnt make a whole lot of sense. if i clone a person (memories included) then are they the same person? if i put both of them in a room is there only one person in there?
Hypothetically, this question is really fucking simple I think. You die but an exact copy is created, are you dead?
The answer is yes and no. That's because it would literally be the same person who already remembers the circumstances of his own death, or could learn from it.
Pretty crazy idea either way though.
Well your consciousness is obviously somehow "tied" to your body because you continue to observe through the same body day after day. But how it is tied, I don't think anyone can explain.
I'm pretty sure that there can be only one consciousness per brain if the 2 brains aren't connected in any way (or work like normal individual brains), so if there's an EXACT copy of you alive at the same time as you, he would have his own consciousness.
He would still be you in every aspect though as its an exact physical copy, since all our memories and everything that makes us who we are is stored in our brains.
I personally believe that our consciousness is just "observing" or basically IS our brain so if our brain thinks something is a good idea, our "conscious mind" thinks its a good idea.
So if a clone appeared out of nowhere standing next to you while browsing this thread he would be like "what the literal fuck how did i get here i was just browsing facepunch" and then he would see you and everyone would start freaking the literal fuck out and whatever happens after that. But he would be you in that way, that he will forever do absolutely everything and make all choices EXACTLY as you would in that situation.
So I don't think the fact that your body would be identical after a teleportation would help in any way in "transferring" your consciousness from the deleted body to the created body at the destination. The new body would just simply have a consciousness in the same way every brain has.
Your original body/consciousness will die when it gets deleted by the teleporter, so even if your body gets reconstructed at another location it doesn't matter like I said above, because when we created the clone in the first example I very highly doubt the universe "scanned" for an already existing consciousness of you to determine whether or not give the clone a new one or use your original one. This is basically the same as if you walked into a simple deletion chamber instead of a teleportation one.
But after teleportation, you're still basically alive because the clone is you in every way. He will have a consciousness (does it really matter in any way that it isn't the original???), and he will do whatever you were planning to do after teleporting, and his life, thoughts, everything will be the exact same.
[QUOTE=TNOMCat;45640443]Well your consciousness is obviously somehow "tied" to your body because you continue to observe through the same body day after day. But how it is tied, I don't think anyone can explain.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that just because at each moment your brain can only have access to its own internal memories and senses? Would you expect your mind to be freely moving between bodies?
[QUOTE=Ziks;45640490]Isn't that just because at each moment your brain can only have access to its own internal memories and senses? Would you expect your mind to be freely moving between bodies?[/QUOTE]
I said its weird because it (the consciousness) doesn't persist if another exact copy of the body is created
well it sort of does, but it wont be you, because you would continue observing the original body
I'm not in any way expecting your mind to move anywhere from your original body.
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This is quite mindfucking and hard to explain but I'll try to clarify a bit
Like I said in my original post, you continue to observe through your body every day, so that you are somehow tied to your physical body, but how can you be tied to a physical body if copying that physical body won't preserve that link
[QUOTE=TNOMCat;45640548]I said its weird because it (the consciousness) doesn't persist if another exact copy of the body is created
well it sort of does, but it wont be you, because you would continue observing the original body
I'm not in any way expecting your mind to move anywhere from your original body.
[editline]edit[/editline]
This is quite mindfucking and hard to explain but I'll try to clarify a bit
Like I said in my original post, you continue to observe through your body every day, so that you are somehow tied to your physical body, but how can you be tied to a physical body if copying that physical body won't preserve that link[/QUOTE]
It depends on how you define identity as to whether you will ever observe the world through the clone's eyes. Using the way I define myself, what would happen at the instant of cloning is that two instances of me would exist, and my stream of consciousness would branch into two distinct individuals. I would experience things through the perspectives of both the clone and the original as I am now two individuals, but those perspectives would be distinct and would diverge because the two instances of myself are only aware of their own perspectives.
An analogy would be the Everett interpretation of quantum mechanics. Under that interpretation, if I were part of a system that interacts with a non-deterministic event like a measurement of the spin of a photon, the system would partition into two separate parallel systems, one for each outcome of the observation. In one "universe" I would react to the photon being spin up, and the other I would independently react to it being spin down. Those two instances of me have diverged and will live their own independent lives from that point, but neither can claim to be the "real" me. They both share a coherent stream of consciousness beginning before they diverged, just as the individuals would in a perfect cloning scenario.
In some way, Yes you are dead but someone with all of your memories will replace you in a way that your relative never notice it.
It is basically the same thing that would happen if we were able to teleport people. You simply die because your body is being destroyed to the atomic level and then, an exact copy of yourself is replicated at the destination.
I believe that if you hack up a teleport machine, you migh end up being capable to make a clone dispenser. You just need a supply of building materials
[QUOTE=pac0master;45687774]It is basically the same thing that would happen if we were able to teleport people. You simply die because your body is being destroyed to the atomic level and then, an exact copy of yourself is replicated at the destination.[/QUOTE]
But, when you're teleported, your body is not destroyed, it's simply pulled apart and put back together. There are no copies being made. If we assume that your consciousness is linked to you physically, then technically you will survive teleportation
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45688259]But, when you're teleported, your body is not destroyed, it's simply pulled apart and put back together. There are no copies being made. If we assume that your consciousness is linked to you physically, then technically you will survive teleportation[/QUOTE]
If i remember right, Teleportation is about breaking down an object to the atomic level and moving all of it's atoms to a different location. ( Like if you where transformed into dust and blew away from the wind. but at the speed of light )
On a technical side, you have been killed and you are being remade. but is it you or a clone of yourself with all of your memories?
for a observer point, there isn't any difference. But for the test subject? ... I have no idea.
[QUOTE=pac0master;45692871]If i remember right, Teleportation is about breaking down an object to the atomic level and moving all of it's atoms to a different location. ( Like if you where transformed into dust and blew away from the wind. but at the speed of light )
On a technical side, you have been killed and you are being remade. but is it you or a clone of yourself with all of your memories?
for a observer point, there isn't any difference. But for the test subject? ... I have no idea.[/QUOTE]
If an observer could never measure the difference, what difference could we say there is?
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