What Most Schools Don't Teach - Short Film (staring Gaben)
99 replies, posted
Am I missing something here?
The title of the video (what most schools don't teach) makes the implication of course that most schools don't teach programming, but how come they interviewed kids that were probably only around ten years old? Wouldn't it be unreasonable to expect kids in a primary school to learn programming when they should instead be focusing on literacy, history and mathematics? I mean, here we only learnt money management / watered-down commerce in Year 8 but they want to push concepts of programming earlier than that?
I dunno if it's any different in the US, but here in Australia (or my state at least), students need to stay in senior school till they are 17, and it's a requirement for all schools in the state to offer students courses like software design and development or at least some way to access such a course. I understand the point of teaching programming to everyone but surely it doesn't need to be in primary school? I'd still support a compulsory algorithms course in high school though because understanding algorithms can also translate in to many real life applications.
[QUOTE=seroyal223;39728720]Why did she say almost everything requires programming? Literally the only fields that require programming are ones that directly involve computers.
And I definitely agree programming should be taught, but like math it's something that only left brained people will really be able to run with[/QUOTE]
Your alarm clock? Programmed.
Your watch? Programmed.
Your microwave? Programmed.
That automatically-opening door with the pressure mat thing? You bet your ass that's programmed.
Seriously, unless you live in a tiny town with no technology at all, nearly everything has been programmed by someone.
[editline]26th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Antdawg;39730558]Am I missing something here?
The title of the video (what most schools don't teach) makes the implication of course that most schools don't teach programming, but how come they interviewed kids that were probably only around ten years old? Wouldn't it be unreasonable to expect kids in a primary school to learn programming when they should instead be focusing on literacy, history and mathematics? I mean, here we only learnt money management / watered-down commerce in Year 8 but they want to push concepts of programming earlier than that?[/QUOTE]
It's important for kids to learn how to use a computer. Another one of my programmer friends started programming when he was 11. I started to use a PC when I was about 6-7, and I'm very adapt at using most tech nowadays. Half the kids that I went to school with didn't know how to send an email (or even do something like register an account).
The real point of the video didn't seem to me like "oh kids don't know that programmers exist", it's more "kids don't know anything about computers" (and this is frighteningly true). In five to ten years time, if you can't use a computer you're going to be struggling living day-to-day life in the city.
[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;39730597]Your alarm clock? Programmed.
Your watch? Programmed.
Your microwave? Programmed.
That automatically-opening door with the pressure mat thing? You bet your ass that's programmed.
Seriously, unless you live in a tiny town with no technology at all, nearly everything has been programmed by someone.
[editline]26th February 2013[/editline]
It's important for kids to learn how to use a computer. Another one of my programmer friends started programming when he was 11. I started to use a PC when I was about 6-7, and I'm very adapt at using most tech nowadays. Half the kids that I went to school with didn't know how to send an email (or even do something like register an account).
The real point of the video didn't seem to me like "oh kids don't know that programmers exist", it's more "kids don't know anything about computers" (and this is frighteningly true). In five to ten years time, if you can't use a computer you're going to be struggling living day-to-day life in the city.[/QUOTE]
US school curriculum must be shocking. We were putting discs in computers in Year 1 and doing assignments on computers in Year 4. We also learnt of the difference between computer memory and storage in Year 6 (ok that bit was when I went to a private school for a few years though).
This is going to sound really cheesy but since I started programming my quality of life has definitely improved. I don't mean actual living/eating arrangements but how I perceive life. I'm able to problem solve a lot more effectively and I don't get nearly as frustrated when something doesn't work. Error codes become challenges instead of obstacles. And then feeling you get when your code finally works is really addicting, seeing all of your hard work actually turn into something real and tangible is very powerful. I only wish I had started sooner.
[QUOTE=mixshifter;39730410]If Will.I.Am wasn't paid out of the ass to be on this just to get more people's attention, and actually believes that coding is a necessity in life, he's pretty damn cool.[/QUOTE]
Apparently he is really into programming. He believes it is the future of music.
wow, big deep inspiring words by will.i.am.
[editline]27th February 2013[/editline]
"ha yeah we don't even use math in computer science, just plus and minus" - CEO of company
Yeah but you won't hire anyone who doesn't have a BS in programming.
And what does a BS in programming include?
Its basically a math degree with algorithmic analysis and programming classes tacked on.
years of Linear algebra, Differential equations, Calculus, Discrete Mathematics etc...
Even if you do pass university, we don't need more shitheads flooding the market. Apparently its an actual thing, that like half of people in a comp sci job interview can't write a function that takes a integer n = 100, and have it output "fizz" if n is divisible by 3 and "buzz" if n is divisible by 5.
Apparently that's an actual problem employers are having. People are coming out of university without any skills.
[url]http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-to-code.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;39730922]Apparently its an actual thing, that like half of people in a comp sci job interview can't write a function that takes a integer n = 100, and have it output "fizz" if n is divisible by 3 and "buzz" if n is divisible by 5.
Apparently that's an actual problem employers are having. People are coming out of university without any skills.[/quote]
The fuck?
[QUOTE=aydin690;39727269]Engineering degree here. As much as i hate programming, unfortunately it's in fuckin everything. So, yeah you gotta know at least a couple of languages. Granted i only need low level programming languages like embedded C/C++, VHDL, ladder logic, etc.
[editline]26th February 2013[/editline]
Also, how to kill your programming boner => go look at a game engine's code[/QUOTE]
You have to realize that game engines and other massive programs are made with very large teams and worked on for several months/years to get to what they look like. Of course its going to look crazy.
Instead, you look at a game engine code, and the break it down into a small chunk that involves one very specific thing, and that chunk is likely what one person contributed to the overall code. Except with stuff done outside the code like planning/revisions/edits/meetings/etc to get that piece to code to look like that (and work well with everyone else's code).
Or rather just look at code that individuals do, and break down the time frame it took for them to do said code.
You know what they say, Rome wasn't coded in a day.
[editline]27th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Antdawg;39730558]Am I missing something here?
The title of the video (what most schools don't teach) makes the implication of course that most schools don't teach programming, but how come they interviewed kids that were probably only around ten years old? Wouldn't it be unreasonable to expect kids in a primary school to learn programming when they should instead be focusing on literacy, history and mathematics? I mean, here we only learnt money management / watered-down commerce in Year 8 but they want to push concepts of programming earlier than that?
I dunno if it's any different in the US, but here in Australia (or my state at least), students need to stay in senior school till they are 17, and it's a requirement for all schools in the state to offer students courses like software design and development or at least some way to access such a course. I understand the point of teaching programming to everyone but surely it doesn't need to be in primary school? I'd still support a compulsory algorithms course in high school though because understanding algorithms can also translate in to many real life applications.[/QUOTE]
Because you are most susceptible to learning things as a child than you are as an adult, especially languages.
Language is one skill that's very hard to learn as an adult but very easy to to learn as a kid. Programming in effect is very much a "language", it's got a certain order of operations, there is specific lingo and stuff to learn, etc. To be able to program you need to be in a certain frame of mind for "code" to make sense and become a second language you can speak (if you will).
The idea isn't to teach complex programming to kids, but rather to introduce them at a young age to that frame of thinking required to program, so that they understand how to code, understand how it works, etc even if they never end up wanting to code later on in life. It's also a great way to teach creative problem solving - which is huge since in order to be a successful adult in this day and age you need to have the ability to creatively solve problems, break things down, etc.
I talk as if I'm a programmer but really I'm just an art student who's worked with game scripting here and there. But the concepts of game scripting (especially for Papyrus for Skyrim, which is pretty much just a clone of Python) are very parellell to actual coding. It helps in more areas in life than just "code" to be able to think like a programmer even if my brain is way too right-brained to constantly be breaking things down logically and thinking in that manner.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;39730922]wow, big deep inspiring words by will.i.am.
[editline]27th February 2013[/editline]
"ha yeah we don't even use math in computer science, just plus and minus" - CEO of company
Yeah but you won't hire anyone who doesn't have a BS in programming.
And what does a BS in programming include?
Its basically a math degree with algorithmic analysis and programming classes tacked on.
years of Linear algebra, Differential equations, Calculus, Discrete Mathematics etc...
Even if you do pass university, we don't need more shitheads flooding the market. Apparently its an actual thing, that like half of people in a comp sci job interview can't write a function that takes a integer n = 100, and have it output "fizz" if n is divisible by 3 and "buzz" if n is divisible by 5.
Apparently that's an actual problem employers are having. People are coming out of university without any skills.
[url]http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-to-code.html[/url][/QUOTE]
.. how?
[editline]28th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=slayer20;39728548]I think one of the bigger problems I have with coding is that, I understand how to make a program say "Hello world!" or even do some algebra, but when it comes to things like creating graphical windows, loading images, etc., I just get really confused and I'm not sure how things work.
I realize there's tons of premade libraries out there like SFML you can use, but I feel like I'm cheating or missing out on something I don't understand when I use stuff like that.[/QUOTE]
try to get out of that trap where you feel you have to make everything yourself.
the reality is, depending a lot on the context, what you feel you have to make yourself (in terms of a general function or class in a library) has probably been done before many times over and doing it yourself is kind of like reinventing the wheel, only likely not as useful a wheel.
[I]BUT[/I], you do learn how to reinvent the wheel and how the wheel functions - don't substitute a complete lack of knowledge with blind usage of libs
Programming is fairly straightforward until you come across recursion :suicide:
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39738841]Programming is fairly straightforward until you come across recursion :suicide:[/QUOTE]
Oh that's not hard. Just wait till you learn about threading.
[QUOTE=Clavus;39739325]Oh that's not hard. Just wait till you learn about threading.[/QUOTE]
Its just pure mind fuck trying to go through code with recursion.
I do have to wonder how poor programmers manage to find the errors causing problems within millions of lines of code.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;39739425]I do have to wonder how poor programmers manage to find the errors causing problems within millions of lines of code.[/QUOTE]
You get programs which go through the code and debug it afaik.
And you can hire people to do it for you.
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39739452]You get programs which go through the code and debug it afaik.
And you can hire people to do it for you.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but if it's something like a game engine it must be so time consuming to find that stuff
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;39739425]I do have to wonder how poor programmers manage to find the errors causing problems within millions of lines of code.[/QUOTE]
It is truly time-consuming. I've been told that professional software development is like 10-20% coding only. The rest is documentation, testing and debugging.
I cannot understand programming language at all. Its not as simple as searching through a game with cheat engine's memory editor.
I'm very shit at math and don't have the attention span for programming but any idiot can see its uses.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nxYBMrs.png[/IMG]
Its pretty cool to see how fast you can actually do shit.
Within 20 minutes i already learned how to create a simple program, this allows you to create entries for contacts and also lets you edit them. Clicking the logo brings you to a 'About' window with my name on it. Also how to create a SQL database and to communicate with it.
If you see that such a small program made within such a small time (I can now do it faster i think because i now know how it works) you can see how much you can do with it.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';39725256]I considered programming because like literally everyone else on the internet I wanted to be a game developer, but I grew up and realized you need to be fairly good at advanced math. I can't even grasp basic algebra most of the time, I think we need to learn how to teach kids math with a lot less punishment involved if we are ever able to put programming in schools. A lot of kids would get way too frustrated and not give a shit about it. Not once did I ever have a teacher who ever sat down with me and gave a shit about teaching me the basics. Instead if you got caught behind and didn't understand it after it had been told to the class several times you were fucked and the teacher wouldn't ever really care. So instead of learning I just sat there bored and frustrated because I felt fucking retarded compared the rest of the class.
I know this video is all about making programming appealing but it seriously isn't as nice and friendly as the video is making it out to be, and I really don't believe in would fit in normally with the shit education system we have where everything is based on grades and punishment for not doing things correctly. Programming is all about trial and error while school is about having things taught to you and then passing or failing and then moving on to the next thing.[/QUOTE]
You don't need to be fairly good at advanced math, you just need to know math basics and how to research something and understand it when you need it.
I don't see why anyone should have to learn math honesty. We have computers, why can't the computers just do all the math for us?
[QUOTE=seroyal223;39746188]I don't see why anyone should have to learn math honesty. We have computers, why can't the computers just do all the math for us?[/QUOTE]
The computer can crunch numbers for you but you have to know the formulas.
I always wanted to make a computer game of my dreams.
"I wonder if somebody sells a program that can make other programs" - me, 8 years old.
This video inspired me to be a superpowered code wizard just like Sam.I.Am
[QUOTE=Chezburger;39725168]It's all fun and games...until the errors.[/QUOTE]
I once somehow had an error that if you'd try to view its details, the error itself would crash.
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39746917]The computer can crunch numbers for you but you have to know the formulas.[/QUOTE]
computers should be powerful enough to figure out the formulas themselves. I guarantee in the future no one will have to learn math anymore
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39746917]The computer can crunch numbers for you but you have to know the formulas.[/QUOTE]
Not just the formulas.. the concepts as well.
I dropped A level computer science at my college after achieving almost full marks to go onto further mathematics. From a personal point of view it is difficult at times to get your had round the massive new way of thinking about things and how algorithms work. But during our first project, a few weeks into struggling to learn and practice the code, for not only just me, but most other people in my class, something clicks, and suddenly we're all there thinking complex designs and ideas for our projects and being able to actually achieve them. I think its great that computer science is now becoming a must type of thing, it allows you to think and use ideas you have learnt so much more. Personally my self I am going on to study Civil and structural engineering but then problem solving behind computer science in my opinion has made me so much more aware of applying thinking and such things into the real world. And in all honesty I know we're all going to look back on those now who call such skills 'geeky' and 'nerdy', computer science is defiantly a booming revolution, perhaps maybe someday to be seen as big as the industrial revolution.
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39738841]Programming is fairly straightforward until you come across recursion :suicide:[/QUOTE]
you won't be saying that when you're proficient with recursion
I wrote this recursive function to transverse an adjacency matrix in like 15 minutes:
[cpp]template <typename T>
int matrix<T>::solve(int x, int y) {
int current_row = x;
int current_row_cell = x;
int steps = 0;
if
(this->*grid[x - 1][y - 1] == 1) {
steps++;
return steps;
} else {
if (x > y) {
--current_row_cell;
if (this->*grid[current_row][current_row_cell] == 1) {
++steps;
steps += solve(current_row - 1, y);
} else return steps;
} else if (x < y) {
++current_row_cell;
if (this->*grid[current_row][current_row_cell] == 1) {
++steps;
steps += solve(current_row + 1, y);
} else return steps;
} else return 0;
return steps;
}
}[/cpp]
it's a little gross because I never bothered to clean it up but you'll see it's very recursive
it's all about return cases
Functional languages can help boatloads with understanding recursion
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