Was the Libyan revolution necessary? - General

Well seeing as it risked becoming a RED ZONE country, it was necessary. We wouldn't want Libya to become the next North Korea on our list.

It wasn't necessary. But western powers wanted it to happen so it did.

[QUOTE=The one that is;33037753]Lets see, if you're group of people is being murdered in mass numbers by a tyrant corrupt whom is also hording all the money in the country and you're starving to death as well ,do you think it's time things change?[/QUOTE] You are completely exaggerating all the problems that existed, if they even did. You also have to consider that Libya before Gaddafi came along was absolutely shit, and that Gaddafi did actively try to improve the country. To give an idea of how much bias there is, how come I never saw anybody complain about the regime before the revolution? How the British Intelligence worked with Gaddafi until the revolution began? How nobody even cared until the Arab spring spurted up? Nobody here probably even knows who Robert Mugabe is, and the crimes he has committed. (Which are much much worse than Gaddafi.)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;33039809]You are completely exaggerating all the problems that existed, if they even did. You also have to consider that Libya before Gaddafi came along was absolutely shit, and that Gaddafi did actively try to improve the country. To give an idea of how much bias there is, how come I never saw anybody complain about the regime before the revolution? How the British Intelligence worked with Gaddafi until the revolution began? How nobody even cared until the Arab spring spurted up? Nobody here probably even knows who Robert Mugabe is, and the crimes he has committed. (Which are much much worse than Gaddafi.)[/QUOTE] actually I do, and for your information I've been vocally opposed to Mubarak, Gaddafi and Mugabe for at least 3 years now. British intelligence worked with Gaddafi because they're inherently corrupt, that's nothing to do with the rebels or us. The reason nobody 'cared' before Arab spring is because you aren't talking to members of amnesty international like myself, you're talking to people who don't have issues with social and civil injustice unless it's presented to them in a media format. If you actually [I]did[/I] talk to amnesty international, we've been vocally opposed to people like Gaddafi for years now, it's just the government don't give a shit

[QUOTE=strayebyrd;33040457]actually I do, and for your information I've been vocally opposed to Mubarak, Gaddafi and Mugabe for at least 3 years now. British intelligence worked with Gaddafi because they're inherently corrupt, that's nothing to do with the rebels or us. The reason nobody 'cared' before Arab spring is because you aren't talking to members of amnesty international like myself, you're talking to people who don't have issues with social and civil injustice unless it's presented to them in a media format. If you actually [I]did[/I] talk to amnesty international, we've been vocally opposed to people like Gaddafi for years now, it's just the government don't give a shit[/QUOTE] The government never gave a shit, and never did the people. The people who seem to care about social and civil injustice are a tiny minority. Plus the true issue in the end is economics, which determined this entire fiasco.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;33040597]The government never gave a shit, and never did the people. The people who seem to care about social and civil injustice are a tiny minority. Plus the true issue in the end is economics, which determined this entire fiasco.[/QUOTE] yeah and I am part of that 'tiny minority' so don't tar everyone with the same brush. Economics was never what was motivating me, I've met people who have come over here from places like Zimbabwe and Syria, and what I hear from people bothers me. Places like Syria are amazing and beautiful, but the people at the top make life for them easy at the expense of others. That's what bothers me

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;33039809]You are completely exaggerating all the problems that existed, if they even did. You also have to consider that Libya before Gaddafi came along was absolutely shit, and that Gaddafi did actively try to improve the country. To give an idea of how much bias there is, how come I never saw anybody complain about the regime before the revolution? How the British Intelligence worked with Gaddafi until the revolution began? How nobody even cared until the Arab spring spurted up? Nobody here probably even knows who Robert Mugabe is, and the crimes he has committed. (Which are much much worse than Gaddafi.)[/QUOTE] This person is completely correct.

[QUOTE=Sickle;33040764]This person is completely correct.[/QUOTE] This person is completely incorrect.

Gaddafi and his wife tortured and killed many innocent civilians. I remember reading accounts that she poured boiling water over the heads of servants. IIrc, she was angry because a servant wouldn't beat her kid for crying.

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;33041055]Gaddafi and his wife tortured and killed many innocent civilians. I remember reading accounts that she poured boiling water over the heads of servants. IIrc, she was angry because a servant wouldn't beat her kid for crying.[/QUOTE] It wasn't his wife, it was his daughter in law.

Life is not just money and cheap gasoline.

[QUOTE=The one that is;33040900]This person is completely incorrect.[/QUOTE] You know for a fact that the British and French need the oil in Libya, and that his killing was unnecessary, and was only done to avoid trial.

...Next leader will also be a dictator probably

There were many reports about the NTC killing civilians before Gaddafi was killed, yet for some reason these reports weren't taken seriously or it was argued that the Gaddafi militia did it. There were even a number of first hand accounts that came out about the NTC killing civilians who refused to join their cause. [url=http://news.yahoo.com/libyans-more-bodies-kadhafi-hometown-114901454.html]Now that there is time to analyze, they are of course finding that these stories are true[/url]. They are also finding that NATO killed many civilians as well. There was so much propaganda in this conflict. It is amazing how many people believed these unbelievable stories. [url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/29/us-libya-troops-rape-idUSTRE73S74B20110429]There was one about how Gaddafi gave his troops viagra so that they could carry out rapes[/url]. Only an idiot could believe that story, and it seems as though most people are idiots. Much of this is similar to WWI propaganda about the Germans: horrific journalism that never happened. This doesn't at all imply the Germans were good, but it does tell that the majority of the horrific claims were false. I can't say if the revolution was necessary as I honestly don't know. I'm not going to act as if I know. I can say that this revolution did more harm than good, and that the NTC and NATO are organizations that should be supported as much as one would support Gaddafi.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;33041653]Life is not just money and cheap gasoline.[/QUOTE] They also had free education, free healthcare, there were no corporations, high life expectancy, southern Libyans gained human rights, high taxes were forbidden and alcohol was banned. If it was that good, I would have preferred living there to living here. If political activism or the such was not allowed it does not affect me or a great deal of people in daily life.

Gaddafi was a brutal, barbaric murderer. It's as simple as that. He systematically slaughtered those who dared to stand up to him. Sent his army to shoot those that took to the streets, and his airforce to bomb them. He directly helped the IRA and Palestinian Black September by giving them financial backing and access to weapons. He was responsible for the Lockerbie Bombing which killed 270 people, amid countless other atrocities. But at the end of the day, our opinions are worthless. It's the voices of the Libyans that really matter. [quote=Sobotnik]If political activism or the such was not allowed it does not affect me or a great deal of people in daily life. [/quote] Are you serious? It affects everybody! Are you telling me you would be perfectly happy to live in a country that provides you with everything in the OP, but bans the right to protest. So what would you do when something that you completely and utterly disagreed with comes into force. Just sit there and take it? I highly doubt it.

yeah man gaddafi improved oil and shit and increased the population and infrastructure, that makes up entirely for his brutal authoritan dictatorship for 40 years!!!

Democracy at the expense of human rights is not something to celebrate, but neither is a dictatorship. It's a whole bunch of grey areas and while I do feel that they will be better of freedom wise I can't say the same for all those lovely reforms Gaddaffi put in place (not the murdering ones, the good ones) since they might be dismantled.

[QUOTE=ThePutty;33045365]yeah man gaddafi improved oil and shit and increased the population and infrastructure, that makes up entirely for his brutal authoritan dictatorship for 40 years!!![/QUOTE] I know right? And what's with the removal of great king sadam and the taliban? They were good rulers too!

The Libyan revolution is much like the current occupy movement, that is to say - retards ruining their country. -the Method Man.

[QUOTE=Method_Man;33049561]The Libyan revolution is much like the current occupy movement, that is to say - retards ruining their country. -the Method Man.[/QUOTE] Keep talking like that, and nobody here is going to take you seriously.

[QUOTE=Milkie;33028239]I agree that he was out of his mind executing his own people. But at the same time he offered luxury to any Libyan. Couldn't the folks just accept his rule? I mean the government instantly found a job for anyone who graduated high school/university. Were the people socially weak or they were forced to do work? As forced, I mean work or get shot. Was Gadaffi batshit insane, just killing civilians for the kicks? There must be another reason why people started mass protests after one man set himself on fire.[/QUOTE] A dude who lived near me had to flee Libya because there was a warrant for his arrest. One of his relatives was arrested before that and was killed in a prison massacre of 1200 people in 97 (I think) because they wanted more water, beds, etc. They didn't tell his family he was killed until 10 years later. [editline]31st October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;33043715]They also had free education, free healthcare, there were no corporations, high life expectancy, southern Libyans gained human rights, high taxes were forbidden and alcohol was banned. If it was that good, I would have preferred living there to living here. If political activism or the such was not allowed it does not affect me or a great deal of people in daily life.[/QUOTE] But if you were to disagree with any of his policies vocally you could be disappeared. [editline]31st October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;33037385]Generally revolutions begin not because the people can't vote or hold public meetings, but because they have no bread in their bellies. This was especially true for 1789, 1848 and 1917. In these times there were famines/food shortages, the latter being artificially caused as the railways bringing in food to the cities of Russia broke down under the strain of war and were unable to transport the food.[/QUOTE] If the most basic rights are somewhat fulfilled but citizens still live under oppression and tyranny where they have few civil or political rights, do you think it's absurd that they revolt? The problems of the French and Russian revolutions sprang from an un-globalised and still industrialising society. Libyans on the other hand had access to television and universal education which allowed them to know exactly what the expectations of a modern society are internationally. It's hard to equate them because they're completely different time periods, so conditions in Libya had changed for the better relative to the rest of the world, but still lacked considerably in comparison to modern countries.

[QUOTE=Bad)-(and;33045347] Are you serious? It affects everybody! Are you telling me you would be perfectly happy to live in a country that provides you with everything in the OP, but bans the right to protest. So what would you do when something that you completely and utterly disagreed with comes into force. Just sit there and take it? I highly doubt it.[/QUOTE] Actually I would, and most people in democratic regimes do. As long as a high standard of living is kept up, I won't revolt.

I'd like to know the source of the OP's facts and figures.

I'd just like to post this here, since it's sort of related: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1137029?p=33062041#post33062041[/url]

If I were a Libyan I'd rather have a dictator I could see than a banking master I couldn't.

Well they are fucked now, not like it will get any better.

Libyans now are no more free-er than under Gaddaffi, the difference now is their living standards will decline.

snip

I have no idea how much difference it will make, but I won't exactly mourn Gadaffi's passing.